Umm... right. Well I won't get into this pissing match with you, with a I told you so comment, so I will let someone else let you know how far out in left field you are.logicaldisaster....you dont fly many different types do you? Why, pray tell could you not land every King Air power off????? I'd kind of like to see an example of an aircraft that is not landed power off?? (MU2, could be one?) Pull out your POH's and give me an example...please. Other than an F104 etc. that is, something some of us has actually flown??
Cat, you're right.....some of these guys cant fly!
Landing w/ a little power
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logicaldisaster
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Mitch Cronin
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co-joe
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I'm a haff-ta disagree with you here Doc.
By far the nicest sweetest greasers you will ever see in a BE 20 or 10 will be with the power on. The 10 tends to land flat if you keep the power anywhere but idle, and this can be corrected a bit by going full fine before the touch (and besides that damn pitching moment as you reduce power is a bitch on a good day), but the 20 lands sweet with full fine on final and 3-400 '# on.
We're talking unlimited runway here with zero wind for argument's sake, but by far the nicest landings will be with the induced lift of prop wash directly on those wings. Period.
Sure sure sure I can land fine with power idle, and some times I evn get it right and land soft, but those landings where you hear the wheels rolling but haven't felt the oleos compress yet only come with power on. IMHO of course.
Now if you want to have a short field competition that's another topic... CJ
By far the nicest sweetest greasers you will ever see in a BE 20 or 10 will be with the power on. The 10 tends to land flat if you keep the power anywhere but idle, and this can be corrected a bit by going full fine before the touch (and besides that damn pitching moment as you reduce power is a bitch on a good day), but the 20 lands sweet with full fine on final and 3-400 '# on.
We're talking unlimited runway here with zero wind for argument's sake, but by far the nicest landings will be with the induced lift of prop wash directly on those wings. Period.
Sure sure sure I can land fine with power idle, and some times I evn get it right and land soft, but those landings where you hear the wheels rolling but haven't felt the oleos compress yet only come with power on. IMHO of course.
Now if you want to have a short field competition that's another topic... CJ
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Cat Driver
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O. K...........
........Since this conversation is getting so disfunctional allow me to elaborate on this issue.
I have never flown any machine yet either fixed or rotary wing that I couldn't land power off...period and land safely if not smoothly.
If anyone can show me an airplane that has been certified that can't be landed power off I want to see it.
The last airplanes that I flew were Super Decathalon, Boeing 767-300 , PBY, DC3, Pitts S2B and RV8 in that order, all of them land just fine power off..
Cat
........Since this conversation is getting so disfunctional allow me to elaborate on this issue.
I have never flown any machine yet either fixed or rotary wing that I couldn't land power off...period and land safely if not smoothly.
If anyone can show me an airplane that has been certified that can't be landed power off I want to see it.
The last airplanes that I flew were Super Decathalon, Boeing 767-300 , PBY, DC3, Pitts S2B and RV8 in that order, all of them land just fine power off..
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
As I mentioned before, most lower time pilots become fixated during the approach. All at different times. I find that most pilots have to be at Vref(plus 1/2the gusts etc etc) by 400 ft. Others at 100 ft. That is the way we are taught and that is the best way. Be stabilized. Very few can make speed adjustments prior to the flair. Like a deer in the headlights. If pilots are having problems with certain model airplanes, have maintenance check the propeller rigging and or flight idle fuel fows. I have a jillion hours in King Airs. I00's, Raisbeck 100's, 3 blade 200's, 4 blade B200's and the 350. I have to admit the 350 is easier to land because of the ground idle solenoid which keeps the prop at 12 degrees blade angle till touchdown which negates the discing effect. The Raisebeck 100 was a bitch and it was easier to land with a touch of power but a power off landing could be done smoothly and consistantly because I have done it many, many times.
I am not about to say pilots are poor airmen, just that some have developed what is to me, bad habits. Works well in most situations but add a slippery short runway and things can be interesting to say the least. Now, with simple airplanes like the Navajo, power off at touchdown always. If you cannot, maybe you should consider another career. That is the old school way of dealing with situations. In the modern world, manufacturers are attempting to design the poor pilot technique out of airplanes by making them more Murphy proof. The prop system in the 350 is a prime example. To land that marvelous airplane smoothly, just fly it close to the gound, power to idle and close your eyes. The airplane will do the rest. For those who can land 2 King airs smoothly but one is a bitch, check propeller rigging. Maybe you are fighting a poorly rigged airplane.
I am not about to say pilots are poor airmen, just that some have developed what is to me, bad habits. Works well in most situations but add a slippery short runway and things can be interesting to say the least. Now, with simple airplanes like the Navajo, power off at touchdown always. If you cannot, maybe you should consider another career. That is the old school way of dealing with situations. In the modern world, manufacturers are attempting to design the poor pilot technique out of airplanes by making them more Murphy proof. The prop system in the 350 is a prime example. To land that marvelous airplane smoothly, just fly it close to the gound, power to idle and close your eyes. The airplane will do the rest. For those who can land 2 King airs smoothly but one is a bitch, check propeller rigging. Maybe you are fighting a poorly rigged airplane.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
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Dust Devil
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Retarded rants aside, we are not landing on theoretical infinite runways. Have a read at this quarter's aviation safety letter on runway overruns. I would rather always land in the first 1500 feet and get a few less greasers than get into the habit of landing long every once in a while and always land smooth.
For the King Air drivers who find cutting power to be detrimental to aircraft control, perhaps just pull the power off a little slower and smoother?
For the King Air drivers who find cutting power to be detrimental to aircraft control, perhaps just pull the power off a little slower and smoother?
You might as well get used to landing without power. If you ever wish to fly anything larger you will find that the performance charts are predicated upon flying the correct numbers on approach and closing the throttle when the GPWS calls, for example, "50." Otherwise your landing rolls/braking performance/brake cooling charts etc. are not going to be accurate. You will also find that you have to develop proficiency in 'low energy go-arounds,' which are initiated after the power levers are closed for the landing.
Light planes: fly 'em as you find 'em. Bigger ones, you will have to conform.
"That's the way it looks from here."
Light planes: fly 'em as you find 'em. Bigger ones, you will have to conform.
"That's the way it looks from here."
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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tripleseven
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I put people who land with power on in the same catergory as the ones who have to land with less flap in a crosswind. Come on for crissake, drop your purse and fly the thing like you own it.
For those who insist on making greasers by cheating and carrying power and coming in at Vref+20: When you have an overrun, you'll wish you listened to all the pro-flight-idle landers.
For those who insist on making greasers by cheating and carrying power and coming in at Vref+20: When you have an overrun, you'll wish you listened to all the pro-flight-idle landers.
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Cat Driver
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goldeneagle
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All this talk about _what_ you are flying and how to land it. I'm surprised you missed the point cat, but, for most it doesn't surprise me. It's NOT about WHAT you are flying, it's about WHERE you are landing. Take the exact same airplane into 5 different situations, and you'll get 5 different techniques, and all of them are valid for various scenarios.
Scenario 1, short strip (short is relative, depends on the plane), obstacles on both ends. Typical technique, graze over the obstacle, possibly dragging a little power, chop, drop, breaks.
Scenario 2, short strip, clear approach. Probably the most common is to approach a little low, drag the last little bit with power, drop onto the numbers, breaks.
Scenario 3, normal strip length, probably the most common scenario out there. Techniques vary, some insist on arriving power off, some insist on carrying power, some just decide on the fly. They ALL work.
Scenario 4, very long strip. At these places, the arrival path is normally speed limited to 'big airplane' speeds (160 to ross typical speed restriction). Big airplanes chug down final at thier own pace, little airplanes fly down the glideslope at takeoff power, or close to it, just to make speed restrictions.
Scenario 5, very short strip on the deck of an aircraft carrier. Normal technique is to go to full power over the threshold, let the hook do the work of trapping the plane while the engines do thier damndest to break the cable.
The bottom line, with a few exceptions (space shuttles and gliders), most airplanes have the OPTION to carry power to landing. Depending on WHERE you are landing, standard procedures may or may not carry power to the landing. In one extreme, you want to arrive at the touchdown point with zero extra kinetic energy, and zero thrust. In the other extreme, you arrive at the touchdown point with some extra kinetic energy, and full thrust. In between, there's an endless number of permutations and combinations, mostly driven by WHERE you are landing, not by WHAT you are landing.
Scenario 1, short strip (short is relative, depends on the plane), obstacles on both ends. Typical technique, graze over the obstacle, possibly dragging a little power, chop, drop, breaks.
Scenario 2, short strip, clear approach. Probably the most common is to approach a little low, drag the last little bit with power, drop onto the numbers, breaks.
Scenario 3, normal strip length, probably the most common scenario out there. Techniques vary, some insist on arriving power off, some insist on carrying power, some just decide on the fly. They ALL work.
Scenario 4, very long strip. At these places, the arrival path is normally speed limited to 'big airplane' speeds (160 to ross typical speed restriction). Big airplanes chug down final at thier own pace, little airplanes fly down the glideslope at takeoff power, or close to it, just to make speed restrictions.
Scenario 5, very short strip on the deck of an aircraft carrier. Normal technique is to go to full power over the threshold, let the hook do the work of trapping the plane while the engines do thier damndest to break the cable.
The bottom line, with a few exceptions (space shuttles and gliders), most airplanes have the OPTION to carry power to landing. Depending on WHERE you are landing, standard procedures may or may not carry power to the landing. In one extreme, you want to arrive at the touchdown point with zero extra kinetic energy, and zero thrust. In the other extreme, you arrive at the touchdown point with some extra kinetic energy, and full thrust. In between, there's an endless number of permutations and combinations, mostly driven by WHERE you are landing, not by WHAT you are landing.
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Cat Driver
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Can't argue with that goldeneagle.
But the fact still remains that " IF " a pilot thinks that power on is the only way to land then I would suggest they need some further training.
Oh and long runways..
Cat
But the fact still remains that " IF " a pilot thinks that power on is the only way to land then I would suggest they need some further training.
Oh and long runways..
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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goldeneagle
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You guys all have a lot of good points...BUT I agree most with those of you saying that it's "plane specific".
Example: During my initial training on King Air BE-100 (Garrett+4Blade) my training captain had me set-up on a long final. He then had me start slowing to our SOP Ref-speed somewhere outside the beacon...essentially to simulate a landing. He then had me 'chop' the power and flare.
All I remember is hearing the props disk-up, watching the VSI fall through 1,500fpm, and me taking the power back!
All he said was "that's why you don't chop the power in a BE-10"
To this day I have never hit the 'stops' on landing in the BE-10...and yes, that goes for short fields too!!
G
Example: During my initial training on King Air BE-100 (Garrett+4Blade) my training captain had me set-up on a long final. He then had me start slowing to our SOP Ref-speed somewhere outside the beacon...essentially to simulate a landing. He then had me 'chop' the power and flare.
All I remember is hearing the props disk-up, watching the VSI fall through 1,500fpm, and me taking the power back!
All he said was "that's why you don't chop the power in a BE-10"
To this day I have never hit the 'stops' on landing in the BE-10...and yes, that goes for short fields too!!
G
"Slow and steady wins the race"
Most of this thread has been quoting Beech products and in my experience you don't have to land with power off, power on will generally (oh boy I can't believe I used that word) make for a smoother landing (especially in the 99) but I think it is very important to be able to, very naturally, land without power. It's not a big deal at all and there will be occasions when you need to do it. Go back to primary flight training in the 150 - power to idle - hold the nose up - not to high mind you. That's the way I was taught.
That being said, the Twin Otter doing offstrip is another ball of wax. On a really short strip I drag it in with alot of power just to keep the gas generator spooled up as there is no high idle in the twin. This pretty much eliminates any delay in getting max reverse (the twin makes as much torque in reverse as it does forward of the gate, at least its supposed too!). That of course exposes you to some risk in the short strokes of the approach due to high drag, lots of power...fire goes out in one... behind the curve, you know the drill. On a strip that is not silly short, I come in steep with a little power (like 5 lbs torque) and the only reason I do that is to ensure that I can reduce power introducing more drag if I get a gust. Coming in at the gate does not allow you to correct for a slight gust which might put you high. OK, you can roll the grips but that generally is considered a NO NO. Bear in mind as well that we're crossing the garbage bags at a speed that is much closer to stall, like 1.05 Vso (whatever your ass is telling you).
As far as the comment about reducing flap for crosswinds and "flying it like you own it", why would you not do that if you had the runway and it effectivly doubles your crosswind capability such as it does in the twin?
My 2 pennies worth.
That being said, the Twin Otter doing offstrip is another ball of wax. On a really short strip I drag it in with alot of power just to keep the gas generator spooled up as there is no high idle in the twin. This pretty much eliminates any delay in getting max reverse (the twin makes as much torque in reverse as it does forward of the gate, at least its supposed too!). That of course exposes you to some risk in the short strokes of the approach due to high drag, lots of power...fire goes out in one... behind the curve, you know the drill. On a strip that is not silly short, I come in steep with a little power (like 5 lbs torque) and the only reason I do that is to ensure that I can reduce power introducing more drag if I get a gust. Coming in at the gate does not allow you to correct for a slight gust which might put you high. OK, you can roll the grips but that generally is considered a NO NO. Bear in mind as well that we're crossing the garbage bags at a speed that is much closer to stall, like 1.05 Vso (whatever your ass is telling you).
As far as the comment about reducing flap for crosswinds and "flying it like you own it", why would you not do that if you had the runway and it effectivly doubles your crosswind capability such as it does in the twin?
My 2 pennies worth.
Dunno about the king airs, but in a 300/400 series twin cessna, I would not recommend pulling the throttles to idle unless you're in ground effect, because it's going to drop out of the sky HARD.
In our (3-bladed prop) 421B, on final I'm looking for blue line (120 mph) in case I gotta go around and one engine fails
Over the fence I want 110 mph, and once I get the aircraft at an altitude that I'm happy with it dropping out of the sky like a manhole cover (say 6 inches) the throttles come all the way back.
Using this procedure, I'm quite comfortable landing on a 3000 foot runway, which the is minimum I want for taking off anyways.
Maybe you could land it shorter with the power off in a 60 degree nose-down pitch attitude to keep the speed up, but that sounds a bit too exciting for me
Every airplane is different. I land the Pitts power off, circumstances permitting: on downwind laterally 1/4 mile from the runway (ie very close) abeam the numbers the throttle goes to idle.
Roll in 45 degrees of bank, and about the same nose-down pitch attitude. The 3-bladed prop provides incredible drag. It takes about 20 seconds from throttle back to landing, which is around 3000 fpm, I guess. Things happen very quickly with the power off, and you'd best do everything correctly at just the right moment.
In our (3-bladed prop) 421B, on final I'm looking for blue line (120 mph) in case I gotta go around and one engine fails
Over the fence I want 110 mph, and once I get the aircraft at an altitude that I'm happy with it dropping out of the sky like a manhole cover (say 6 inches) the throttles come all the way back.
Using this procedure, I'm quite comfortable landing on a 3000 foot runway, which the is minimum I want for taking off anyways.
Maybe you could land it shorter with the power off in a 60 degree nose-down pitch attitude to keep the speed up, but that sounds a bit too exciting for me
Every airplane is different. I land the Pitts power off, circumstances permitting: on downwind laterally 1/4 mile from the runway (ie very close) abeam the numbers the throttle goes to idle.
Roll in 45 degrees of bank, and about the same nose-down pitch attitude. The 3-bladed prop provides incredible drag. It takes about 20 seconds from throttle back to landing, which is around 3000 fpm, I guess. Things happen very quickly with the power off, and you'd best do everything correctly at just the right moment.
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Cat Driver
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I just can't let this one die.
If someone can find any certified airplane that can not be safely landed power off please post it here.
If any pilot feels uncomfortable without having power avaliable to " Help " them land every time then I have no problem with that either.
To quote Doc:
" Cat, you're right.....some of these guys cant fly! "
As Clint Eastwood said "A man's gotta know his limitations"
Cat
If someone can find any certified airplane that can not be safely landed power off please post it here.
If any pilot feels uncomfortable without having power avaliable to " Help " them land every time then I have no problem with that either.
To quote Doc:
" Cat, you're right.....some of these guys cant fly! "
As Clint Eastwood said "A man's gotta know his limitations"
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Just combed through 3 flight manuals.
B1900
Dash 8
B737
All were certified landing power OFF.
The 1900 was the only one required to bring the power to idle at the 50 foot screen height. The others required power to idle before touchdown.
Food for thought...if you land power on...and something happens...you may have some 'splaining to do 'cause you were not conforming to the flight manual.
just my $.02 worth.
B1900
Dash 8
B737
All were certified landing power OFF.
The 1900 was the only one required to bring the power to idle at the 50 foot screen height. The others required power to idle before touchdown.
Food for thought...if you land power on...and something happens...you may have some 'splaining to do 'cause you were not conforming to the flight manual.
just my $.02 worth.
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tripleseven
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logicaldisaster
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No sense repeating what Goldeneagle said, so I won't. I agree with what he said though.
Cat,
I can't tell you planes aren't meant to be landed power off, I can only tell you with some king airs pulling the power makes the airplane pull very hard and you will fall out of the sky.
Keeping a little power on in the flare helps a lot and makes it much more comfortable for passengers.
Could it be a rigging problem? Maybe... I don't have the luxury of knowing how to rig a pt6 to my liking. So I can only fly it according to the planes liking, which is to keep a little power on.
As far as stopping. Even with power on, at the same airspeed over the fence, this airplane will not float as much as a 3 bladed king air and if I do need to "get down" I can yank the power and I will have a positive landing.
Cheers
P.S. The original question was to the effect that he felt more comfortable with a little power on. He didn't say which model and there are a number of people here saying you should land all airplanes with the power off which I think is incorrect.
P.P.S What is with all these, "your a bad pilot" comments coming from moderators? Maybe you guys should moderate your own posts to avoid flame wars.
Cat,
I can't tell you planes aren't meant to be landed power off, I can only tell you with some king airs pulling the power makes the airplane pull very hard and you will fall out of the sky.
Keeping a little power on in the flare helps a lot and makes it much more comfortable for passengers.
Could it be a rigging problem? Maybe... I don't have the luxury of knowing how to rig a pt6 to my liking. So I can only fly it according to the planes liking, which is to keep a little power on.
As far as stopping. Even with power on, at the same airspeed over the fence, this airplane will not float as much as a 3 bladed king air and if I do need to "get down" I can yank the power and I will have a positive landing.
Cheers
P.S. The original question was to the effect that he felt more comfortable with a little power on. He didn't say which model and there are a number of people here saying you should land all airplanes with the power off which I think is incorrect.
P.P.S What is with all these, "your a bad pilot" comments coming from moderators? Maybe you guys should moderate your own posts to avoid flame wars.
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Dust Devil
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