Piaggio

sprucemonkey · Post by **sprucemonkey** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:41 pm

RCMP have one. TG has one. Cascade has two. Flightexec has one under management. Avia has the rest - four. I think thats it.

rigpiggy · Post by **rigpiggy** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:39 pm

2 C-FNGA Piaggio P-180 AVANTI Cascades Inc. 2004-05-27 1007
3 C-FSTP Piaggio P-180 AVANTI Avia Aviation Ltd. 2003-12-16 1055
4 C-GBCI Piaggio P-180 AVANTI The Craig Evan Corporation 2003-06-10 1057
5 C-GFOX Piaggio P-180 AVANTI Government Of Canada, Royal Ca 2003-07-15 1065
6 C-GJMM Piaggio P-180 AVANTI Marinvent Corporation 2003-11-13 1037
7 C-GKWQ Piaggio P-180 AVANTI Avia Aviation Ltd. 2005-07-21 1095
8 C-GLEM Piaggio P-180 AVANTI Cascades Inc. 2000-07-04 1009
9 C-GPIA Piaggio P-180 AVANTI Avia Aviation Ltd. 2004-04-01 1072
10 C-GWII Piaggio P-180 AVANTI 1102734 Ontario Inc. 2005-09-30 1074
11 C-GWRK Piaggio P-180 AVANTI Avia Aviation Ltd. 2003-05-09 1061

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:34 pm

What about 1? Is this some new counting system?

CID · Post by **CID** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:15 pm

1 C-FCMC Piaggio P.136-L1 Canswim Canada Ltd
2 C-FNGA Piaggio P-180 AVANTI Cascades Inc.
3 C-FSTP Piaggio P-180 AVANTI Avia Aviation Ltd.
4 C-GBCI Piaggio P-180 AVANTI The Craig Evan Corporation
5 C-GFOX Piaggio P-180 AVANTI Government Of Canada, Royal Ca
6 C-GJMM Piaggio P-180 AVANTI Marinvent Corporation
7 C-GKWQ Piaggio P-180 AVANTI Avia Aviation Ltd.
8 C-GLEM Piaggio P-180 AVANTI Cascades Inc.
9 C-GPIA Piaggio P-180 AVANTI Avia Aviation Ltd.
10 C-GWII Piaggio P-180 AVANTI 1102734 Ontario Inc.
11 C-GWRK Piaggio P-180 AVANTI Avia Aviation Ltd.

WTF? I thought Shell Canada owned one. Maybe I was confused by seeing one parked outside Aeroshell in Calgary?

PC12's are better · Post by **PC12's are better** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:40 pm

Neo / CID,
I'm trying to compare the PC12 and the P180 as they are both in the same market for this sort of operation if a buyer is looking to purchase these 2 AC then you must look at both the pros and the CONS for each one. and I'm getting sick and tired of the BS about he single engine aspect. please tell me how many PC12's, Piper Merridians, TMB 700 or 850's crashed in the last 10 years due to an engine failure. How many twins crashed in these years due to a poor engine failure procedure
I guess that if there should be no more single engine IFR flying then we must get in touch with the USAF and ensure that they ground all of the F-16's it's just much too great of a risk.
It's gutsier taking the P180 into a 3000' strip than it is flying the 12 at any time.

Maybe we should all be looking at AN 124's because they have 4 engines.
NO lets get an AN 225 with it's 6 engines. Hell maybe an B52. they have 8. that's got to be much better than the P180 i n this mission . don't they??

WTF.

PC12's are better · Post by **PC12's are better** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:46 pm

Hey CID, the P136 isn't a P180, it's a twin engine flying boat.

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.s ... entry=true

nice try.

rigpiggy · Post by **rigpiggy** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:31 pm

I didn't narrow the search just typed in piaggio. hence no no. 1

CID · Post by **CID** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:39 pm

and I'm getting sick and tired of the BS about he single engine aspect. please tell me how many PC12's, Piper Merridians, TMB 700 or 850's crashed in the last 10 years due to an engine failure.

It ain't BS. I assume (and it may be a bad assumption) that the "operator" you are referring to will be operating commercially.

If that is the case and s/he wants 703 ops, then don't bother comparing meridians or TMB 700s or 850s because they aren't eligible for single engine commercial IFR ops.

PC-12s don't have enough of a history (yet) to put together stats to support their safety.

How many twins crashed in these years due to a poor engine failure procedure.

Again, under what operating rule?

I guess that if there should be no more single engine IFR flying then we must get in touch with the USAF and ensure that they ground all of the F-16's it's just much too great of a risk.

Let's see. How many commercial operators use F-16s? Tell you what. When the Air Force starts charging people for rides on the F-16s then we can start talking.

The bad thing about these SEIFR discussions is that people introduce all sorts of outlandish comparisons even though I am speaking only in the context of "a fare paying passenger" which is commercial ops. That means that Meridians, and pretty much any single except Cessna 208s and PC-12s are irrelevant, as are twins that are operated privately or that aren't capable of maintaining MOCA with one engine out.

The simple truth is that I don't care if a private guy in a Meridian makes a smoking hole or if another private operator can't deal with a single engine failure in his Baron and spirals into a barn. If the operator in question is private, I will gracefully bow out an apologize. If 703 ops is the target, then I apologize for nuttin' honey.

Hey CID, the P136 isn't a P180, it's a twin engine flying boat.

Good catch dude (or dudette). I posted that list to help explain why the #1 was missing off the previous list but forgot to expand on it! Oh well. Better luck next time I guess!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:09 pm

" and I'm getting sick and tired of the BS about he single engine aspect. please tell me how many PC12's, Piper Merridians, TMB 700 or 850's crashed "

Interesting question, I just watched the father of the young pilot who had a single engine turbine fail on him on TV asking many questions about the safety issue..

So if that pilot had been flying a PC12 or any other single engine airplane would he have lived?

Cat

neophyte · Post by **neophyte** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:46 pm

12s are better,

"I'm trying to compare the PC12 and the P180 as they are both in the same market for this sort of operation"

That is just the point, they are not in the same market. Take a look at any advertisement for a PC12, I will be my left nut it will look something like the following:

A picturesque sunset with mountains in the background, 3 or 4 execs walking away from the machine with ear to ear smiles, meanwhile a pilot (with cheesy aviators) in the background unloads hunting supplies, pop and chips, and other miscellaneous cargo.

While this ad shows how versitile the 12 can be, it also shows how different a purpose it has when compared to a P180. The 12 is a nice SUV, the P180 is a sportscar.

The P180 is strictly a passenger plane meant for pavement to pavement flying. It has a the biggest cabin of its class and will get you there faster than any other turboprop and some jets.

I won't go into the single engine thing because all you have to do is do a search to find a multi-page thread on single-engine IFR. It isn't for everyone, it definetly isn't for me.

I wonder how many deceased pilots said "the stats indicate it is safe"? There is a reason why SEIFR is struggling for certification in Europe.

Keep it real,

N

PC12's are better · Post by **PC12's are better** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:50 pm

Neo.
I agree that the PC12 and the 180 are in different markets. (3.2 million vs. 5.8 million) I would compare the 350 with the 180 if required but I didn't as the initial post asks about a PC12 and a Be20. I hate to hijack these postings with SEIFR vs MEIFR and as such I appologize.

The pc12 is a great corporate machine if so equipped. with the 4 place club and 4 fwd facing seats then it makes a very nice commuter with good economy, speed(not in the 300's but close) and excellent capability to land almost anywhere so that you don't need to go to the nearest international and then take the cab from the airport to the company of interest. PC12 doesn't require ASDA as it is opperated in 704/703 so it can take much shorter strips commercially. if looking to 604 / private standards then I'm not sure of the regs.

Your right that the 180 is a great machine and the SEIFR position is one that only the purchaser can make.

Cat
I also knew the young man that you are refering to. however there is a reason that I didn't include the 208 in the comparison. it is a hard working and AFFORDABLE commercial aircraft that some opperators purchase and don't maintain as it should be. I'm sure that you know a number of opperators around the area who can barely afford a 208 who may skip steps on mtc.

I don't know about the 208 but the 12 has a chip detect system as with the meridian and 700/850 so even in the event of a failure there is substantial warning that there will or may be a failure to which the pilot will make an emergency landing ASAP and deal with the situation as required.

This is only my opinion and interpretation of the facts to which if I offend anyone then I oppologize

Cheers

CID · Post by **CID** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:33 am

I don't know about the 208 but the 12 has a chip detect system as with the meridian and 700/850 so even in the event of a failure there is substantial warning that there will or may be a failure to which the pilot will make an emergency landing ASAP and deal with the situation as required.

Granted, a chip detector is a good tool, but I wouldn't put a great deal of faith in the system to detect all faillures. It won't for example tell you that your FCU is about to go south.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:56 am

The P-180 gives me a hard-on. It and the moo-too (double udder) are my fav turbo-props. They're both fast as hell and really weird looking to the point of being ugly, sorta like a girl who isn't a supermodel but loves to screw.

w squared · Post by **w squared** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:14 am

Hedley..

I've felt the same kinda attraction to the P180 and MU2 myself. Thanks for puting a handle on why those two unconventional designs have that "it" factor!

PC12's are better · Post by **PC12's are better** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:18 am

CID
I agree that there are some things that are uncontrollable in a engine failure but the amount of redundancy built into the Turbines for most Single Engine aircraft is much greater than the engines on the single.

B1900 and PC12 have the same engine core basicly PT6-67 however there are many more redundant systems on the 12 than the 1900. FCU failure has a backup system and if that fails then you still have the manual override (MOR) which is dirt simple and almost bulletproof

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:41 am

The problem with getting an aircraft certified is that you can only write numbers in the Limitations that have been observed, ie cold temperature minimums are as demonstrated. Piaggio couldn't find a colder place to test during their certification process and its very expensive to change one lousy number. That hamstrung the Global Express for a while both for min temperature and max crosswind. Bombardier threw tons of money at it and both numbers 'vanished.'

rigpiggy · Post by **rigpiggy** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:03 am

PC12's are better wrote:CID
.

B1900 and PC12 have the same engine core basicly PT6-67 however there are many more redundant systems on the 12 than the 1900. FCU failure has a backup system and if that fails then you still have the manual override (MOR) which is dirt simple and almost bulletproof

Actually the MOR lever simply bypasses the ftg from the prop governor which controls Py bleed air to the pneumatic bellows. An FCU failure means the engine dies, or goes to min flow

Cobra64 · Post by **Cobra64** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:44 am

Those that fly in Canada (GFOX is one of them, I think?) -- who operates them? Some charter outfit out of Calgary, I was told?

I saw one up close in the Morgan Air hangar last year. sure was pretty

LCEOPS · Post by **LCEOPS** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:57 am

The list of operators is old. FEX hasn't had 1 for over a year. CGBCI is now a Falcon 20 and that Piaggio has been with Road Trailer Rentals for last year now. With a new Avanti II order sitting in Denton TX getting finishing touches. Serial 1168.
For what it matters.
Both PC12 and P180 are great......

yycflyguy · Post by **yycflyguy** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:32 am

LCEOPS wrote:The list of operators is old.

No, this thread is old... originally posted in 2006

V1VRV2 · Post by **V1VRV2** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:30 pm

I know that Aliant operates one how come its not showing up anywheres on the register?

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