AME pay scales on the rise !

[-42]

My only question was and is why the employer wouldn’t list or post the wage. Any employer within a collective agreement must. Why employers outside of a collective agreement don’t is plain weird. If I was to want an employee that was really good at their job and could provide me with peace of mind why would I want them to negotiate their wage? Seems a bit counterproductive. Have I negotiated before yes however I did it for fun knowing I wouldn’t take the job anyways. In fact once I was sent a ticket before I even accepted. Sheer desperation by the employer however the wage as I recall was roughly 40% more than advertised. The same company has continually advertised with “industry standard” wages……usually every few months go figure. Just sayin.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Why won’t employers post wages? Let’s see here and speculate. Are they embarrassed? Are they playing you for stupid? What exactly is the goal here? Enquiring minds want to know what the sour flavour of the day employer is hoping to achieve by not posting at least the resemblance of an hourly wage. The usual “competitive”, “industry standard” should be a big red warning flag with flashing lights for anyone willing to sacrifice their life for said potential employer. Good luck on your future endeavours.

See above, that’s my take from both having been an employee (AME and PRM and other higher management roles) several times in Canada. That’s my take but I’m sure there’s more underhanded reasons I’ve missed here.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

My only question was and is why the employer wouldn’t list or post the wage.

See my last post above

[Bede]

Listing a job without any kind of wage attached is indicative of slimy “negotiation” (gentle euphemism for “deception”) tactics in any industry.
I know for a fact employers do it to draw more naive licenses under false pretenses of elaborate, grandiose, confusing, and disingenuous job ads, designed to sucker someone into a crap job for low pay and unrealistic expectations.
Once they have the candidate jump through interview and pre-screening hurdles avoiding all discussion of remuneration what usually happens is a job offer slid across the table with a grossly low figure. At that point there’s been an enormous amount of energy spent by the potential candidate with high expectations of “competitive wages” etc. who 9/10 times feels pressured to take the job regardless. Managers will shower the hesitant and discouraged candidate with every promise and praise under the sun (never in writing) as to why they should take the job despite the obvious disappointment.
This method, as immoral as it is does work on most candidates unfortunately, it’s borderline illegal in some instances (premeditated constructive dismissal territory).

That's a fair argument. I look back at my career and think of all the money that I left on the table because I didn't know how to negotiate and just took whatever was offered. (It's actually worse than that- I used to look down on people who took the screws to the employer and negotiated hard.) Employers will always low ball you- just like we lowball people when we want to buy a car. Unless you're at a union shop, wages and working conditions are legally negotiable. If the employer doesn't want to negotiate, that's their loss. Word seems to get out who the decent outfits are and the one's to avoid. The one's to avoid seem to get lower quality employees and have a habit of going under. (I'm thinking of you GGN.)

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Listing a job without any kind of wage attached is indicative of slimy “negotiation” (gentle euphemism for “deception”) tactics in any industry.
I know for a fact employers do it to draw more naive licenses under false pretenses of elaborate, grandiose, confusing, and disingenuous job ads, designed to sucker someone into a crap job for low pay and unrealistic expectations.
Once they have the candidate jump through interview and pre-screening hurdles avoiding all discussion of remuneration what usually happens is a job offer slid across the table with a grossly low figure. At that point there’s been an enormous amount of energy spent by the potential candidate with high expectations of “competitive wages” etc. who 9/10 times feels pressured to take the job regardless. Managers will shower the hesitant and discouraged candidate with every promise and praise under the sun (never in writing) as to why they should take the job despite the obvious disappointment.
This method, as immoral as it is does work on most candidates unfortunately, it’s borderline illegal in some instances (premeditated constructive dismissal territory).

That's a fair argument. I look back at my career and think of all the money that I left on the table because I didn't know how to negotiate and just took whatever was offered. (It's actually worse than that- I used to look down on people who took the screws to the employer and negotiated hard.) Employers will always low ball you- just like we lowball people when we want to buy a car. Unless you're at a union shop, wages and working conditions are legally negotiable. If the employer doesn't want to negotiate, that's their loss. Word seems to get out who the decent outfits are and the one's to avoid. The one's to avoid seem to get lower quality employees and have a habit of going under. (I'm thinking of you GGN.)

Employers always get the best out of new eager licenses, especially in Canadian aviation, that is a fact.
There is a bit of a sickness still alive in Canadian aviation where new hires are made to think (by the industry / employers) that they should just be thankful to have any job offer at all, while conversely for decades the industry is crying pilot and AME shortages since the 1980’s. Which is it? If there is a shortage in any industry, it needs to make employment more attractive (better pay and work conditions) to attract more personnel. In reality it’s never been a genuine argument on its face.
There is, and always has been a surplus of licensed personnel, and every employer that’s been around for a minute damn well knows it. The advent of internet, social media, job boards / employer reviews, and forums like this one are killing off that mentality, and poking some massive holes in their underhanded games, and I think it’s a good thing.
Employers are still pushing it as far as how much they can get away with however, even to the point of sitting aircraft rather than adjusting wages to attract personnel (I witnessed this in Canada this summer in the helicopter industry). I offered up several experienced guys who were ghosted when they gave said operator their rates.

That’s the reality that needs to be assessed by any potential candidate, and the word has never been more out than today.
Experience and type ratings / endorsement carrots (real or not) don’t pay the bills, and don’t afford employees a lifestyle attractive to people that want a life outside the job. Day rates for 16-20 hours a day seven days a week, missed family time and eventual divorces and other personal problems for some because of that abuse is not ok.
We’ve all heard similar lines “well that’s just the way it is” or “that’s aviation if you don’t like it get out” or “that’s helicopters”. Most of whom are now in management positions hiding from that misery themselves.
We have all done the chasing experience thing, and it’s never been worth it for most I know in hindsight, with the amount of sacrifice vs what the employee nets at the end of the day / their career.

Wage and realistic employment condition transparency is a good thing for employees and employers. It brings everything up for the employee and employer, it does mean paying appropriately however.

[Bede]

Totally agree but there’s a productivity differential between new and experienced AMEs. Eventually people learn. The ones that don’t will lose.

I know a little bit about twisting wrenches. Maybe like a second or third year apprentice. I once did an engine change with an experienced AME. We each did one side. I think he was done in half the time that I was. If I’m getting paid $30/hr and he $50, his employer will still be better off than mine.

[digits_]

But hey, if you like you can uproot your whole life to make 60k USD
viewtopic.php?t=176919

[digits_]

I don’t think posting wages is important. Why? Because you know your worth and you should negotiate. Who cares what they offer- make a counter. Is there an opening in a city you’d live in? If yes, apply. If you get offered the job start negotiating your wage. If it’s satisfactory, then either take the job or use it to negotiate a pay raise wit your current employer. If they don’t want to negotiate, they can start the lengthy hiring process over with someone else. Eventually they’ll get the idea.

I think both sides would save a lot of time if the employer is offering 50k in the ad and you want 100k. That's the kind of spread you could realistically encounter. This is not just an AME, aviation or Canadian thing.

I suspect a major factor is they don't want current employees to know they would pay a new hire more than their current salary. Which is a whole other reason why a realistic pay range would need to be mandated to be posted in job ads. Some states and countries do it and it didn't kill their economy.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Totally agree but there’s a productivity differential between new and experienced AMEs. Eventually people learn. The ones that don’t will lose.

I know a little bit about twisting wrenches. Maybe like a second or third year apprentice. I once did an engine change with an experienced AME. We each did one side. I think he was done in half the time that I was. If I’m getting paid $30/hr and he $50, his employer will still be better off than mine.

It’s not just speed, but quality of work, inherent knowledge, and safety are factors as well.
He will also know things (in experience on type) and years of technical experience in general, that a fresh inexperienced technician set of eyes can’t yet.
We are constantly inspecting even while doing something as basic as an engine change, and that’s usually when we find things that wouldn’t otherwise be caught until a failure of some sort (during unscheduled or high # cycle scheduled / uncommon maintenance).
I can’t count the amount of times I’ve taken over an aircraft from a new guy that had been working with and said “WTF!”.
It takes f’n years and tons of commitment / continuing education to hone a good AME.
It is however the lowest rung on the ladder unfortunately that AME wages are set by “1 to no more than 3 years licensed” as I’ve actually seen in AME job ads in the last few months.
Non AME employers (and some questionable AME employers) do see maintenance as a big expense, and see a 1st year license as valuable as a 15-20 year license with the same endorsements.
They do legally have the same certification authority, the experience level is the part that most employers in Canada no longer acknowledge for that very reason (same license, same signing authority, same worth).
That is not a correct measurement of an AME’s value, and a precedent that has run off many higher time guys in Canada in recent years.
Their experience and level of competence has a value that should be remunerated. Experience and skill is definitely appreciated in the USA, most operators are starving for it.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

But hey, if you like you can uproot your whole life to make 60k USD
viewtopic.php?t=176919

60-90USD, which is more than some in Canada max pay numerically in CAD$. I make much more working 1/10th of what that job would entail.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I don’t think posting wages is important. Why? Because you know your worth and you should negotiate. Who cares what they offer- make a counter. Is there an opening in a city you’d live in? If yes, apply. If you get offered the job start negotiating your wage. If it’s satisfactory, then either take the job or use it to negotiate a pay raise wit your current employer. If they don’t want to negotiate, they can start the lengthy hiring process over with someone else. Eventually they’ll get the idea.

I think both sides would save a lot of time if the employer is offering 50k in the ad and you want 100k. That's the kind of spread you could realistically encounter. This is not just an AME, aviation or Canadian thing.

I suspect a major factor is they don't want current employees to know they would pay a new hire more than their current salary. Which is a whole other reason why a realistic pay range would need to be mandated to be posted in job ads. Some states and countries do it and it didn't kill their economy.

They don’t post wages for several reasons and pay transparency in aviation (a federally regulated industry) I do think as I interpret things, are legally supposed to be transparent (posted numerically in job ads). Posting wages would absolutely give better leverage from the workforce to employers.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I don’t think posting wages is important. Why? Because you know your worth and you should negotiate. Who cares what they offer- make a counter. Is there an opening in a city you’d live in? If yes, apply. If you get offered the job start negotiating your wage. If it’s satisfactory, then either take the job or use it to negotiate a pay raise wit your current employer. If they don’t want to negotiate, they can start the lengthy hiring process over with someone else. Eventually they’ll get the idea.

I think both sides would save a lot of time if the employer is offering 50k in the ad and you want 100k. That's the kind of spread you could realistically encounter. This is not just an AME, aviation or Canadian thing.

I suspect a major factor is they don't want current employees to know they would pay a new hire more than their current salary. Which is a whole other reason why a realistic pay range would need to be mandated to be posted in job ads. Some states and countries do it and it didn't kill their economy.

I started this thread in the general forum on that very topic. No bites yet.

viewtopic.php?t=176897

[helicopterray]

But hey, if you like you can uproot your whole life to make 60k USD
viewtopic.php?t=176919

60-90USD, which is more than some in Canada max pay numerically in CAD$. I make much more working 1/10th of what that job would entail.

It's depressing when that is called 'high pay' in the ad.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

But hey, if you like you can uproot your whole life to make 60k USD
viewtopic.php?t=176919

60-90USD, which is more than some in Canada max pay numerically in CAD$. I make much more working 1/10th of what that job would entail.

It's depressing when that is called 'high pay' in the ad.

Likely a part 91 shit show, no thanks.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

But hey, if you like you can uproot your whole life to make 60k USD
viewtopic.php?t=176919

60-90USD, which is more than some in Canada max pay numerically in CAD$. I make much more working 1/10th of what that job would entail.

It's depressing when that is called 'high pay' in the ad.

The fact that someone will bite infuriates me. I made more than that on one astar in the arctic 20 f’n years ago and was home more than half of the year

[Pat Richard]

I appreciate Bede's suggestion, but I've also seen Bug's example of experienced guys getting ghosted play out regularly. I managed to do what Bede mentions once in all the decades I've been in this and tried multiple times.

Ultimately, there is general resent from companies that you have the balls to negotiate and are not falling over yourself to immediately take what they offer, irrespective of how desperate they are. AME's are supposed to know their place and presenting terms is a big step out of that shell, with that attitude still prevaling to this day.

Most companies want servitude from AME's not respectful business relationships. That's why so many are whining about TC's upcoming restrictions on AME duty days. Most business plans are going to being going up in smoke because they are so heavily centered on riding AME's hard.

Problem is many ways AME's are to blame because they constantly bend over for this treatment, reasons for which are multiple, but I wont start it here.

I think at this point the most likely outcome is some kind of collaspe of this industry in canada. I don't see how with the continuing crap offers being advertised how there going to recover or attract guys to this gong show.

Truthfully, a part of me is looking forward to it because the industry has worked hard to deserve it.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I appreciate Bede's suggestion, but I've also seen Bug's example of experienced guys getting ghosted play out regularly. I managed to do what Bede mentions once in all the decades I've been in this and tried multiple times.

Ultimately, there is general resent from companies that you have the balls to negotiate and are not falling over yourself to immediately take what they offer, irrespective of how desperate they are. AME's are supposed to know their place and presenting terms is a big step out of that shell, with that attitude still prevaling to this day.

Most companies want servitude from AME's not respectful business relationships. That's why so many are whining about TC's upcoming restrictions on AME duty days. Most business plans are going to being going up in smoke because they are so heavily centered on riding AME's hard.

Problem is many ways AME's are to blame because they constantly bend over for this treatment, reasons for which are multiple, but I wont start it here.

I think at this point the most likely outcome is some kind of collaspe of this industry in canada. I don't see how with the continuing crap offers being advertised how there going to recover or attract guys to this gong show.

Truthfully, a part of me is looking forward to it because the industry has worked hard to deserve it.

TC has been hinting at AME duty days for over 20 years now. I haven’t paid much attention in recent years but is that actually coming to a head?

[-42]

The answer to every employers and the governments set dreams are TFW’s and new permanent residents preferably from a place and situation with little or no human rights, labour law/code and the strictest of work ethics. Basically fall asleep at the desk while working if at all possible and breath , eat and sleep your work. They will get it too through begging and playing poor me. All is lost for anyone even thinking of staying in any job as a young person with remotely thinking your free time and life is the most valuable thing. Good luck.

[chowda]

I think he might be confusing the recently announced fatigue mngmnt for pilots as also applying to mechs. I also havent heard anything about regulating AME work hours in over 20 years so its still ride them hard and put them to bed wet

I guess there might be a spinoff effect on mechs if pilots are flying less but I havent really thought it out.

[Pat Richard]

I think he might be confusing the recently announced fatigue mngmnt for pilots as also applying to mechs. I also havent heard anything about regulating AME work hours in over 20 years so its still ride them hard and put them to bed wet

I guess there might be a spinoff effect on mechs if pilots are flying less but I havent really thought it out.

Yeh, I couldve sworn I heard it like that awhile back, but it is for piots only. Apologies for that.

Im guessing the same voices that shitcanned it 20 years ago continue to be heard.

Getting ridden hard still in effect

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I appreciate Bede's suggestion, but I've also seen Bug's example of experienced guys getting ghosted play out regularly. I managed to do what Bede mentions once in all the decades I've been in this and tried multiple times.

Ultimately, there is general resent from companies that you have the balls to negotiate and are not falling over yourself to immediately take what they offer, irrespective of how desperate they are. AME's are supposed to know their place and presenting terms is a big step out of that shell, with that attitude still prevaling to this day.

Most companies want servitude from AME's not respectful business relationships. That's why so many are whining about TC's upcoming restrictions on AME duty days. Most business plans are going to being going up in smoke because they are so heavily centered on riding AME's hard.

Problem is many ways AME's are to blame because they constantly bend over for this treatment, reasons for which are multiple, but I wont start it here.

I think at this point the most likely outcome is some kind of collaspe of this industry in canada. I don't see how with the continuing crap offers being advertised how there going to recover or attract guys to this gong show.

Truthfully, a part of me is looking forward to it because the industry has worked hard to deserve it.

The “collapse” as you say is already happening in rotary. In the past five years some of the largest most financially backed helicopter companies have vanished.

The following are now defunct;
•Highland (over 60 years old)
•Universal (over 60 years old)
•Lakelse (around 20-25 years old )
•Great Slave (about 36 years old)
•Remote (39 years old)

There’s only around 800-1000 commercial and transport category helicopters registered in Canada. The above is about 1-200 aircraft total either left the country, parted out or re registered here (lots with smaller companies). Things were better in the early eighties, and that’s the worst it’s been to my knowledge.

We’re in a different economy and ultimately different world, Canadas flying game really never regained traction after the recession 2007-2009, and that is when I started seeing wages vanish from job postings.
Things are really weird now where everyone is crying labour shortage but won’t adjust wages and working conditions which have been stagnant since the aforementioned recession (14-16 years ago).

Even before that recession however the workforce was fighting tooth and nail and making slow but steady headway with wages and conditions which were a bit behind the times even then. I don’t see any complete collapse in fixed wing albeit it’s the part of the industry I’m least involved with, there is a matter of national security with maintaining transportation for civilians and cargo nationally and globally.
Helicopters are a much different story, they thrive on industrial inaccessibility (hydro electric, well heads etc), exploration and ultimately disaster (fires, floods, environmental contamination, Ems and earthquakes). All of these jobs still need to be manned but many like wildlife survey, pipeline and hydroelectric inspection can now be done by drones.

For AME’s that still want to do this in Canada, I suggest starting your own AMO. It’s not the easiest or most stable way to make a living, but it is the best way to control your work and remuneration .

[-42]

National security? That’s hilarious actually. Canada went from 3rd strongest in World War 2 to what? Couple busted subs, some howitzers and a woke, underfunded, under appreciated, grossly, understaffed and demoralized labour pool. Canada and it’s current government couldn’t defend itself or help in a major disaster if it tried. The only thing Canada has is a direct resource bank for the U.S. at a discounted rate, without that we couldn’t fight our way out of a wet paper bag. The civilian side of things show it too, who wants to eat $$$$ for bum pay in Fort whatever or Lake somewhere? Not today Canadians that’s who.

[Vickers vanguard]

60-90USD, which is more than some in Canada max pay numerically in CAD$. I make much more working 1/10th of what that job would entail.

It's depressing when that is called 'high pay' in the ad.

The fact that someone will bite infuriates me. I made more than that on one astar in the arctic 20 f’n years ago and was home more than half of the year

I’m in type training, corporate airplanes, Bombardier products. Good part 91 or 135 customers ( private or management companies ) with Global platforms in the US pay their guys anything between 140,000 at the lowest of the scale ( typical 160,000 usd ), to 200,000 usd. I’ve been doing this for the last 12 years , and these numbers are very recent. Friend of mine, maintenance manager at Solairus Aviation out of Austin, Tx, has two guys wrenching on globals, 200,000 Usd for one of them and the other pretty close behind.
Better than that, same dude doing the same F...g job as me, a lot less qualified and capable, working for the same employer, but based out of Texas instead on YUL, makes 30% more !
The Canadian market is crap..period. It’s too small to start, and like someone mentioned before, the constant influx of large numbers of immigrants ( close to 600,000 people every year) WITHOUT an equivalent market to sustain this, makes it so that these people are competing for the few quality jobs out there, and since the new guys need to survive ( I’m not blaming anyone), people will be willing to work for less, as they have no choice to feed their kids.
I can go on and on about the other politics regarding immigration, but suffice to say, the country just can’t sustain that many people at once....housing , job market, health care etc etc...it’s a train wreck. They’re sacrificing a whole generation and hope for things to readjust themselves in the future. 25 years ago, an everage of 200,000-250,000 were being accepted into the country, today it’s 600,000 !
Don’t want to hurt any feelings, but this place would have been better if it was the 56th state....

[helicopterray]

Last year's 437000 was the highest number of immigrants ever. Your numbers are off by 50%

https://www.cicnews.com/2023/01/canada- ... #gs.micw78

[-42]

Ah yes. Well I hate the term “I have to feed my family”. Your choice to breed makes it not my problem. As far as immigration is concerned suffice to say you need to check your math there and then look at your southern border being absolutely out of control. It’s only a matter of time for you I believe by 2050 if not sooner Caucasian’s will be a minority in the U.S. I have met a lot of Americans over the years and don’t want to judge a whole country but I got to say they are very different people. I am an immigrant so know the struggles but it’s the 2nd generation that figures it out, up until then it’s cheap labour as they feel intimidated. There’s a reason why white European immigration is always the lowest. It’s a fact. Worked with a guy from Bizjet years ago and couldn’t believe how little he made but hey that was years ago. As far as being another State no gracias I don’t particularly enjoy getting shot at or thinking about getting shot every time I go to the mall, a bar, school or anywhere where the gun and violence culture is thriving. A country divided by half says something about its people. Aviation sucks regardless of which side of the border your on, way better, easier ways to make money without doing graveyards and getting AIDS.