Announced routes

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NTPilot
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Re: Announced routes

Post by NTPilot »

C-GGGQ wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:54 am
NTPilot wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:09 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:16 am They pay the same as WJ at least for FO. Also fewer deductions, overtime kicks in sooner etc. Also as show in another thread WJ is 2-3 years on reserve and 10-15 years for an upgrade. Porter over wj swoop encore is a no brainer in my mind.
-WJ has 20% WSP company matching ( you put 20% of your salary company double it and give it to you in one year)
-WJ pays 7300k at the end of each year to FO
-Encore just raised the Q400 wages to approximately 60k
-WJ has union
-The 10% end of the list pilots are usually in reserve and right now it’s about a year
-WJ pays for pilots parking
-the new contract is in negotiations for swoop and WJ and with very good chance both companies are gonna have same wages

I don’t work for WJ but my point is between WJ and porter the answer is obvious!
- WSP means low takehome pay on an already low salary
- why make it a lump sum and not just have a better rate?
- this is just false. From the thread in WJ lowest FO holding a block in yyz is 2020 hire. Yyc is worse.
What you are saying is correct!
But the end of the year you take home more cash in WJ on the jets,
Now in the new LOU encore is paying that money every months, so for Q400 porter pays 43k and encore pays about 59k a year,

This is the new Encore Q400 pay scale I found from the other forum,
But also consider this, your parking is paid for (saving $2000 a year almost),
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RobertChow
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Re: Announced routes

Post by RobertChow »

NTPilot wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:26 am
C-GGGQ wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:54 am
NTPilot wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:09 pm

-WJ has 20% WSP company matching ( you put 20% of your salary company double it and give it to you in one year)
-WJ pays 7300k at the end of each year to FO
-Encore just raised the Q400 wages to approximately 60k
-WJ has union
-The 10% end of the list pilots are usually in reserve and right now it’s about a year
-WJ pays for pilots parking
-the new contract is in negotiations for swoop and WJ and with very good chance both companies are gonna have same wages

I don’t work for WJ but my point is between WJ and porter the answer is obvious!
- WSP means low takehome pay on an already low salary
- why make it a lump sum and not just have a better rate?
- this is just false. From the thread in WJ lowest FO holding a block in yyz is 2020 hire. Yyc is worse.
What you are saying is correct!
But the end of the year you take home more cash in WJ on the jets,
Now in the new LOU encore is paying that money every months, so for Q400 porter pays 43k and encore pays about 59k a year,

This is the new Encore Q400 pay scale I found from the other forum,
But also consider this, your parking is paid for (saving $2000 a year almost),
Plus Calgary is a lot more affordable than Toronto…
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thepoors
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Re: Announced routes

Post by thepoors »

NTPilot wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:09 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:16 am They pay the same as WJ at least for FO. Also fewer deductions, overtime kicks in sooner etc. Also as show in another thread WJ is 2-3 years on reserve and 10-15 years for an upgrade. Porter over wj swoop encore is a no brainer in my mind.
-WJ has 20% WSP company matching ( you put 20% of your salary company double it and give it to you in one year)
-WJ pays 7300k at the end of each year to FO
-Encore just raised the Q400 wages to approximately 60k
-WJ has union
-The 10% end of the list pilots are usually in reserve and right now it’s about a year
-WJ pays for pilots parking
-the new contract is in negotiations for swoop and WJ and with very good chance both companies are gonna have same wages

I don’t work for WJ but my point is between WJ and porter the answer is obvious!
You missed probably the biggest factor for WJ vs Porter: YOS
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8895
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Re: Announced routes

Post by 8895 »

NTPilot wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:09 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:16 am They pay the same as WJ at least for FO. Also fewer deductions, overtime kicks in sooner etc. Also as show in another thread WJ is 2-3 years on reserve and 10-15 years for an upgrade. Porter over wj swoop encore is a no brainer in my mind.
-WJ has 20% WSP company matching ( you put 20% of your salary company double it and give it to you in one year)
-WJ pays 7300k at the end of each year to FO
-Encore just raised the Q400 wages to approximately 60k
-WJ has union
-The 10% end of the list pilots are usually in reserve and right now it’s about a year
-WJ pays for pilots parking
-the new contract is in negotiations for swoop and WJ and with very good chance both companies are gonna have same wages

I don’t work for WJ but my point is between WJ and porter the answer is obvious!
How long are those WJ upgrade times again? Not to mention the fact that management there is so bad that they sidestepped a newly formed union and created swoop with it’s lower labour costs lol

I find it hard to say “go to WJ” for someone early on in their career when it’s a company in full retreat, where you’d be sitting on reserve for years and waiting on an upgrade for at least a decade. If you want to live in Calgary I can see why someone would apply, but other then that why invest your career into a company whose overlords don’t even want to invest into it anymore? Onex is gonna make their asset as high value as possible before selling, and that means more pink tails than teal.
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twa22
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Re: Announced routes

Post by twa22 »

8895 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:35 am
NTPilot wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:09 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:16 am They pay the same as WJ at least for FO. Also fewer deductions, overtime kicks in sooner etc. Also as show in another thread WJ is 2-3 years on reserve and 10-15 years for an upgrade. Porter over wj swoop encore is a no brainer in my mind.
-WJ has 20% WSP company matching ( you put 20% of your salary company double it and give it to you in one year)
-WJ pays 7300k at the end of each year to FO
-Encore just raised the Q400 wages to approximately 60k
-WJ has union
-The 10% end of the list pilots are usually in reserve and right now it’s about a year
-WJ pays for pilots parking
-the new contract is in negotiations for swoop and WJ and with very good chance both companies are gonna have same wages

I don’t work for WJ but my point is between WJ and porter the answer is obvious!
How long are those WJ upgrade times again? Not to mention the fact that management there is so bad that they sidestepped a newly formed union and created swoop with it’s lower labour costs lol

I find it hard to say “go to WJ” for someone early on in their career when it’s a company in full retreat, where you’d be sitting on reserve for years and waiting on an upgrade for at least a decade. If you want to live in Calgary I can see why someone would apply, but other then that why invest your career into a company whose overlords don’t even want to invest into it anymore? Onex is gonna make their asset as high value as possible before selling, and that means more pink tails than teal.
Why go to a company early on in your career when you're likely to end up on a Q400 making 44k a year base salary living in one of the most expensive cities in the world, which is were I presume most end up being based out of... Not to mention that commuting to YTZ is a pain in the ass, and, as far as I know, parking isn't even paid for, and we all know how expensive it is to park anywhere near YTZ (if parking is paid then I stand corrected).

It doesn't matter how good the working environment is, it doesn't pay the bills or put food on the table, and right now, 60k is barely liveable for a single person anywhere in the GTA, nevermind 44k
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NTPilot
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Re: Announced routes

Post by NTPilot »

8895 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:35 am
NTPilot wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:09 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:16 am They pay the same as WJ at least for FO. Also fewer deductions, overtime kicks in sooner etc. Also as show in another thread WJ is 2-3 years on reserve and 10-15 years for an upgrade. Porter over wj swoop encore is a no brainer in my mind.
-WJ has 20% WSP company matching ( you put 20% of your salary company double it and give it to you in one year)
-WJ pays 7300k at the end of each year to FO
-Encore just raised the Q400 wages to approximately 60k
-WJ has union
-The 10% end of the list pilots are usually in reserve and right now it’s about a year
-WJ pays for pilots parking
-the new contract is in negotiations for swoop and WJ and with very good chance both companies are gonna have same wages

I don’t work for WJ but my point is between WJ and porter the answer is obvious!
How long are those WJ upgrade times again? Not to mention the fact that management there is so bad that they sidestepped a newly formed union and created swoop with it’s lower labour costs lol

I find it hard to say “go to WJ” for someone early on in their career when it’s a company in full retreat, where you’d be sitting on reserve for years and waiting on an upgrade for at least a decade. If you want to live in Calgary I can see why someone would apply, but other then that why invest your career into a company whose overlords don’t even want to invest into it anymore? Onex is gonna make their asset as high value as possible before selling, and that means more pink tails than teal.
That’s very well said,
about the mainline WJ yes upgrades takes long time, but in encore is as long as any other airline
Now what are the main options for a pilot that is in his early career in regionals: Porter Jazz and Encore

- porter pays FO $43,940/1st year and 80k capt, was the only company in pandemic that shut down the operation and laid off all the pilots, last airline to open the operation and bring back FOs at reduced salary, (because there’s no union to defend your rights basically), the pilot health benefits starts after months 3 and no internal ticket for pilots for first 3 months. I personally know one of the top problem the pilots have is parking issue and they spent 2k a year from their own salary for that

-With Jazz you have AC path but you will be making 40k for time being and upgrade which now I guess is fast then Capt start at 80k and the benefits are very descent and good I believe. They can your their internal ticket from day one.

-Encore they have only Calgary base for new hires, you start at 60k first year FO and then Capt 100k after upgrade which is not too long again. The flow to WJ main line takes time and new hires cannot carry their seniority number to mainline,(before December 22 hires can), your health benefit start from day one

Now for someone that is in his early career, already paid 80k for his pilot licenses, probably has loan, and has worked as an instructor or flew up north for very low salary already, which one is a better option

I’m just advocating for better life and work conditions for pilot, regardless of what company it is
I hope porter raise their salary And I’ll be suggesting any one to go there, but a pilot with 43k/year cannot afford living in toronto and going to YTZ, it should be criminal
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RobertChow
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Re: Announced routes

Post by RobertChow »

twa22 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:54 am
8895 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:35 am
NTPilot wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:09 pm

-WJ has 20% WSP company matching ( you put 20% of your salary company double it and give it to you in one year)
-WJ pays 7300k at the end of each year to FO
-Encore just raised the Q400 wages to approximately 60k
-WJ has union
-The 10% end of the list pilots are usually in reserve and right now it’s about a year
-WJ pays for pilots parking
-the new contract is in negotiations for swoop and WJ and with very good chance both companies are gonna have same wages

I don’t work for WJ but my point is between WJ and porter the answer is obvious!
How long are those WJ upgrade times again? Not to mention the fact that management there is so bad that they sidestepped a newly formed union and created swoop with it’s lower labour costs lol

I find it hard to say “go to WJ” for someone early on in their career when it’s a company in full retreat, where you’d be sitting on reserve for years and waiting on an upgrade for at least a decade. If you want to live in Calgary I can see why someone would apply, but other then that why invest your career into a company whose overlords don’t even want to invest into it anymore? Onex is gonna make their asset as high value as possible before selling, and that means more pink tails than teal.
Why go to a company early on in your career when you're likely to end up on a Q400 making 44k a year base salary living in one of the most expensive cities in the world, which is were I presume most end up being based out of... Not to mention that commuting to YTZ is a pain in the ass, and, as far as I know, parking isn't even paid for, and we all know how expensive it is to park anywhere near YTZ (if parking is paid then I stand corrected).

It doesn't matter how good the working environment is, it doesn't pay the bills or put food on the table, and right now, 60k is barely liveable for a single person anywhere in the GTA, nevermind 44k
100%. And you’re right for the parking.
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: Announced routes

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

Just to be aware:
There is a monthly stipend at porter that is given to pilots regarding parking

Does it completely cover the cost of parking…NO.
Are the pilots paying $2000 per year for parking…..NO.

Someone mentioned parking at YTZ. I don’t think the monthly stipend was given to pay for parking in downtown Toronto. Lots of people live nearby and walk or take a train to union station and shuttle it to the island.

The parking may have to change or get increased in the future. The island airport does not have a parkade big enough for all of porter’s staff, Which is why they can’t offer a contracted parking facility.

Also, factor in genuine happiness to go to work at porter and then you will understand why some choose Porter over others.

The airline looks after its people, no union required.
Simple fact.
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: Announced routes

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

Also, I must admit I got sucked into this thread. But isn’t the subject “announced routes”. We are way off topic here. Regroup.
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twa22
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Re: Announced routes

Post by twa22 »

CaptDukeNukem wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:29 am Just to be aware:
There is a monthly stipend at porter that is given to pilots regarding parking

Does it completely cover the cost of parking…NO.
Are the pilots paying $2000 per year for parking…..NO.

Someone mentioned parking at YTZ. I don’t think the monthly stipend was given to pay for parking in downtown Toronto. Lots of people live nearby and walk or take a train to union station and shuttle it to the island.

The parking may have to change or get increased in the future. The island airport does not have a parkade big enough for all of porter’s staff, Which is why they can’t offer a contracted parking facility.

Also, factor in genuine happiness to go to work at porter and then you will understand why some choose Porter over others.

The airline looks after its people, no union required.
Simple fact.
No no no... This is such a piss poor mentality to have

Does the happiness and great work environment pay for my kids food? Or for my mortgage payment or rent? Let me do some simple math for for you if it isn't already obvious

44000 a year base is 3700 a month PRE TAX. Just deducted Basic tax, you are left with roughly 3000 a month, give or take

Rent is 2500 for a one bedroom downtown Toronto these days. Ok you can maybe find for 2000, but no where near downtown. So what, you maybe have 1000 left to feed yourself? Then you have to pay for a car or transport, cellphone, internet, etc

Do you not see a problem here? You literally cannot live off 3000 a month in hand. I don't know what the per diem situation or other pay is, but the pay is atrocious.

Please, do not use "good working environment" and "they take care of us" to excuse the crap pay... It's embarrassing and it's the reason it brings down our industry and we can't raise wages across the board
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: Announced routes

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

twa22 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:22 am
CaptDukeNukem wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:29 am Just to be aware:
There is a monthly stipend at porter that is given to pilots regarding parking

Does it completely cover the cost of parking…NO.
Are the pilots paying $2000 per year for parking…..NO.

Someone mentioned parking at YTZ. I don’t think the monthly stipend was given to pay for parking in downtown Toronto. Lots of people live nearby and walk or take a train to union station and shuttle it to the island.

The parking may have to change or get increased in the future. The island airport does not have a parkade big enough for all of porter’s staff, Which is why they can’t offer a contracted parking facility.

Also, factor in genuine happiness to go to work at porter and then you will understand why some choose Porter over others.

The airline looks after its people, no union required.
Simple fact.
No no no... This is such a piss poor mentality to have

Does the happiness and great work environment pay for my kids food? Or for my mortgage payment or rent? Let me do some simple math for for you if it isn't already obvious

44000 a year base is 3700 a month PRE TAX. Just deducted Basic tax, you are left with roughly 3000 a month, give or take

Rent is 2500 for a one bedroom downtown Toronto these days. Ok you can maybe find for 2000, but no where near downtown. So what, you maybe have 1000 left to feed yourself? Then you have to pay for a car or transport, cellphone, internet, etc

Do you not see a problem here? You literally cannot live off 3000 a month in hand. I don't know what the per diem situation or other pay is, but the pay is atrocious.

Please, do not use "good working environment" and "they take care of us" to excuse the crap pay... It's embarrassing and it's the reason it brings down our industry and we can't raise wages across the board
Yes you’re right.

Pay is atrocious for entry level pilots.

I am very aware of the problem at that level. We’ve all suffered.

I’m just saying others calculations regarding encore porter and jazz are wrong.
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twa22
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Re: Announced routes

Post by twa22 »

CaptDukeNukem wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:46 am
twa22 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:22 am
CaptDukeNukem wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:29 am Just to be aware:
There is a monthly stipend at porter that is given to pilots regarding parking

Does it completely cover the cost of parking…NO.
Are the pilots paying $2000 per year for parking…..NO.

Someone mentioned parking at YTZ. I don’t think the monthly stipend was given to pay for parking in downtown Toronto. Lots of people live nearby and walk or take a train to union station and shuttle it to the island.

The parking may have to change or get increased in the future. The island airport does not have a parkade big enough for all of porter’s staff, Which is why they can’t offer a contracted parking facility.

Also, factor in genuine happiness to go to work at porter and then you will understand why some choose Porter over others.

The airline looks after its people, no union required.
Simple fact.
No no no... This is such a piss poor mentality to have

Does the happiness and great work environment pay for my kids food? Or for my mortgage payment or rent? Let me do some simple math for for you if it isn't already obvious

44000 a year base is 3700 a month PRE TAX. Just deducted Basic tax, you are left with roughly 3000 a month, give or take

Rent is 2500 for a one bedroom downtown Toronto these days. Ok you can maybe find for 2000, but no where near downtown. So what, you maybe have 1000 left to feed yourself? Then you have to pay for a car or transport, cellphone, internet, etc

Do you not see a problem here? You literally cannot live off 3000 a month in hand. I don't know what the per diem situation or other pay is, but the pay is atrocious.

Please, do not use "good working environment" and "they take care of us" to excuse the crap pay... It's embarrassing and it's the reason it brings down our industry and we can't raise wages across the board
Yes you’re right.

Pay is atrocious for entry level pilots.

I am very aware of the problem at that level. We’ve all suffered.

I’m just saying others calculations regarding encore porter and jazz are wrong.
Fair enough, and don't get me wrong, I agree with you on working environment, it absolutely matters and if pay is the same across the board then I agree, select the one that has better working environment and quality of life (as long as it makes sense in other aspects too)

I just wanted to make sure that we are not accepting lower pay standards because somewhere is good to work.
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: Announced routes

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

twa22 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:08 am
CaptDukeNukem wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:46 am
twa22 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:22 am

No no no... This is such a piss poor mentality to have

Does the happiness and great work environment pay for my kids food? Or for my mortgage payment or rent? Let me do some simple math for for you if it isn't already obvious

44000 a year base is 3700 a month PRE TAX. Just deducted Basic tax, you are left with roughly 3000 a month, give or take

Rent is 2500 for a one bedroom downtown Toronto these days. Ok you can maybe find for 2000, but no where near downtown. So what, you maybe have 1000 left to feed yourself? Then you have to pay for a car or transport, cellphone, internet, etc

Do you not see a problem here? You literally cannot live off 3000 a month in hand. I don't know what the per diem situation or other pay is, but the pay is atrocious.

Please, do not use "good working environment" and "they take care of us" to excuse the crap pay... It's embarrassing and it's the reason it brings down our industry and we can't raise wages across the board
Yes you’re right.

Pay is atrocious for entry level pilots.

I am very aware of the problem at that level. We’ve all suffered.

I’m just saying others calculations regarding encore porter and jazz are wrong.
Fair enough, and don't get me wrong, I agree with you on working environment, it absolutely matters and if pay is the same across the board then I agree, select the one that has better working environment and quality of life (as long as it makes sense in other aspects too)

I just wanted to make sure that we are not accepting lower pay standards because somewhere is good to work.
Totally, crap pay is crap pay. No one should be subject to it lol.

But if you were to chooooooooossseeeee….. :P
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Re: Announced routes

Post by C-GGGQ »

And lets be honest, until what last week? Two weeks ago? Encore and Porter pay was equivalent. Jazz lagged behind both. Encore bumped pay because they can’t hang on to pilots. Hopefully the others follow suit.
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Re: Announced routes

Post by YC87DRVR »

C-GGGQ wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:20 am And lets be honest, until what last week? Two weeks ago? Encore and Porter pay was equivalent. Jazz lagged behind both. Encore bumped pay because they can’t hang on to pilots. Hopefully the others follow suit.
Correct me if I am wrong but, why as a 703 king air FO do you think you’re an expert on which airline is best?
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Re: Announced routes

Post by C-GGGQ »

YC87DRVR wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:02 am
C-GGGQ wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:20 am And lets be honest, until what last week? Two weeks ago? Encore and Porter pay was equivalent. Jazz lagged behind both. Encore bumped pay because they can’t hang on to pilots. Hopefully the others follow suit.
Correct me if I am wrong but, why as a 703 king air FO do you think you’re an expert on which airline is best?
703 Captain, but fair enough. Pay rates are public knowledge. Working conditions are basically all thats talked about here. I have former coworkers and friends at all of the above giving me first hand info on morale and conditions. Encore is the only one where someone I knew personally went sideways to a different regional after working there. Pretty much all the airlines are losing some to AC etc, but which ones are losing people fastest and which ones are having sideways moves is telling.
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Re: Announced routes

Post by newlygrounded »

C-GGGQ wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:20 am And lets be honest, until what last week? Two weeks ago? Encore and Porter pay was equivalent. Jazz lagged behind both. Encore bumped pay because they can’t hang on to pilots. Hopefully the others follow suit.
Can porter afford to pay more? They took on a lot of debt with 0 flights running for years and now they have 50 planes on order.
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Re: Announced routes

Post by C-GGGQ »

The delay in TC certification of the jets probably didn’t help, but as I understand it they saved a lot being shut down. So who knows? They aren’t paying more right now because when they came up with the payscales they claimed it was competitive based on the competition. If we’re all being honest then yes. The Q rates were pretty much the same as the others and the jet is close to others for the first few years.
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Re: Announced routes

Post by NTPilot »

newlygrounded wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:27 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:20 am And lets be honest, until what last week? Two weeks ago? Encore and Porter pay was equivalent. Jazz lagged behind both. Encore bumped pay because they can’t hang on to pilots. Hopefully the others follow suit.
Can porter afford to pay more? They took on a lot of debt with 0 flights running for years and now they have 50 planes on order.
Well actually with shutting down the whole operation and not paying a penny to pilots and others not only they saved money but they almost bought the jests for cheap and all cash and they paid all their debts, (porter management quote)
Can they pay more, absolutely yes,
Will they? God knows

If the pilots had union, they would have so much better benefits and life style
Just look at the porter ramp guys, only one with union, no one can tell them anything
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Re: Announced routes

Post by braaap Braap »

NTPilot wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:15 pm
Well actually with shutting down the whole operation and not paying a penny to pilots and others not only they saved money but they almost bought the jests for cheap and all cash and they paid all their debts, (porter management quote)
Can they pay more, absolutely yes,
Will they? God knows

If the pilots had union, they would have so much better benefits and life style
Just look at the porter ramp guys, only one with union, no one can tell them anything
They typically run a benchmarking exercise every year where they look at the comparable regionals (last year was Jazz, Encore, and Pal). The pilot representatives apparently fought to avoid a B scale by bringing the FO salaries DOWN because the other 3's MMGs are in the 70s

Hard to say "well look at Encore" when that was just ratified. If things don't change at the next benchmarking exercise I could see a lot of issues of retention and recruitment and/or seeking better representation than the funion that is the FOAG.

I think a Canadian industry united in ALPA is the best case scenario but their past performance leaves something to be desired (I understand industry/market/political dynamics were at play).
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Re: Announced routes

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

newlygrounded wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:27 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:20 am And lets be honest, until what last week? Two weeks ago? Encore and Porter pay was equivalent. Jazz lagged behind both. Encore bumped pay because they can’t hang on to pilots. Hopefully the others follow suit.
Can porter afford to pay more? They took on a lot of debt with 0 flights running for years and now they have 50 planes on order.
From what I understand they got a pretty good deal on the E2s. Also, sold them to a few leasing companies for a small profit then leased them back right away. Which I believe is termed appropriately a leaseback :)


Again, I have zero idea as to what exactly was written in that deal, but I do believe that they are making sound business decisions and cost per mile for the E2 is wayyyyy better than mostly everything other than the 220.
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Last edited by CaptDukeNukem on Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CaptDukeNukem
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Re: Announced routes

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

braaap Braap wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:56 pm
NTPilot wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:15 pm
Well actually with shutting down the whole operation and not paying a penny to pilots and others not only they saved money but they almost bought the jests for cheap and all cash and they paid all their debts, (porter management quote)
Can they pay more, absolutely yes,
Will they? God knows

If the pilots had union, they would have so much better benefits and life style
Just look at the porter ramp guys, only one with union, no one can tell them anything
They typically run a benchmarking exercise every year where they look at the comparable regionals (last year was Jazz, Encore, and Pal). The pilot representatives apparently fought to avoid a B scale by bringing the FO salaries DOWN because the other 3's MMGs are in the 70s

Hard to say "well look at Encore" when that was just ratified. If things don't change at the next benchmarking exercise I could see a lot of issues of retention and recruitment and/or seeking better representation than the funion that is the FOAG.

I think a Canadian industry united in ALPA is the best case scenario but their past performance leaves something to be desired (I understand industry/market/political dynamics were at play).
I’m with you here. Although I don’t necessarily think a union would help at this moment in time. I’ve spent a lot of years working for unionized companies and seeing 2% of my salary disappear for very little forward gain.

Perhaps if we had a “college of professional pilots” and agreed to terms country wide it would be an advantage. But for now…. Present position HOLD.
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braaap Braap
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Re: Announced routes

Post by braaap Braap »

CaptDukeNukem wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:40 pm
braaap Braap wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:56 pm
NTPilot wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:15 pm
Well actually with shutting down the whole operation and not paying a penny to pilots and others not only they saved money but they almost bought the jests for cheap and all cash and they paid all their debts, (porter management quote)
Can they pay more, absolutely yes,
Will they? God knows

If the pilots had union, they would have so much better benefits and life style
Just look at the porter ramp guys, only one with union, no one can tell them anything
They typically run a benchmarking exercise every year where they look at the comparable regionals (last year was Jazz, Encore, and Pal). The pilot representatives apparently fought to avoid a B scale by bringing the FO salaries DOWN because the other 3's MMGs are in the 70s

Hard to say "well look at Encore" when that was just ratified. If things don't change at the next benchmarking exercise I could see a lot of issues of retention and recruitment and/or seeking better representation than the funion that is the FOAG.

I think a Canadian industry united in ALPA is the best case scenario but their past performance leaves something to be desired (I understand industry/market/political dynamics were at play).
I’m with you here. Although I don’t necessarily think a union would help at this moment in time. I’ve spent a lot of years working for unionized companies and seeing 2% of my salary disappear for very little forward gain.

Perhaps if we had a “college of professional pilots” and agreed to terms country wide it would be an advantage. But for now…. Present position HOLD.
Don't get me wrong, I'd sign a card today. I think 2% is well worth it to have:

1) Access to a legal department not paid for by the RD family (should I need it - knock on wood)
2) Be pulling in the same direction as the majority of the industry
3) Have some nicer merger protections in place if it ever came to that.

IMO we've outgrown the FOAG. The committee is lacking teeth. Stuff is getting changed on a whim here and there with no real transparency and I think the anemic engagement from the pilot group is a sign of a "whatever" attitude.

I just don't think the Porter group should be lambasted or eyerolled at because they haven't decided to go that direction (yet).
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newlygrounded
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Re: Announced routes

Post by newlygrounded »

NTPilot wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:15 pm
newlygrounded wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:27 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:20 am And lets be honest, until what last week? Two weeks ago? Encore and Porter pay was equivalent. Jazz lagged behind both. Encore bumped pay because they can’t hang on to pilots. Hopefully the others follow suit.
Can porter afford to pay more? They took on a lot of debt with 0 flights running for years and now they have 50 planes on order.
Well actually with shutting down the whole operation and not paying a penny to pilots and others not only they saved money but they almost bought the jests for cheap and all cash and they paid all their debts, (porter management quote)
Can they pay more, absolutely yes,
Will they? God knows

If the pilots had union, they would have so much better benefits and life style
Just look at the porter ramp guys, only one with union, no one can tell them anything
There were plenty of costs that were hard to swallow while making no income, afaik even most of the mechanics were laid off.

They got a large loan from the government, if they were doing well financially I wouldn't see them doing that. They also probably had some cash laying around from selling the terminal a few years ago but that's obviously a 1 time benefit.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ ... -1.6087309
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: Announced routes

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

braaap Braap wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:34 pm
CaptDukeNukem wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:40 pm
braaap Braap wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:56 pm

They typically run a benchmarking exercise every year where they look at the comparable regionals (last year was Jazz, Encore, and Pal). The pilot representatives apparently fought to avoid a B scale by bringing the FO salaries DOWN because the other 3's MMGs are in the 70s

Hard to say "well look at Encore" when that was just ratified. If things don't change at the next benchmarking exercise I could see a lot of issues of retention and recruitment and/or seeking better representation than the funion that is the FOAG.

I think a Canadian industry united in ALPA is the best case scenario but their past performance leaves something to be desired (I understand industry/market/political dynamics were at play).
I’m with you here. Although I don’t necessarily think a union would help at this moment in time. I’ve spent a lot of years working for unionized companies and seeing 2% of my salary disappear for very little forward gain.

Perhaps if we had a “college of professional pilots” and agreed to terms country wide it would be an advantage. But for now…. Present position HOLD.
Don't get me wrong, I'd sign a card today. I think 2% is well worth it to have:

1) Access to a legal department not paid for by the RD family (should I need it - knock on wood)
2) Be pulling in the same direction as the majority of the industry
3) Have some nicer merger protections in place if it ever came to that.

IMO we've outgrown the FOAG. The committee is lacking teeth. Stuff is getting changed on a whim here and there with no real transparency and I think the anemic engagement from the pilot group is a sign of a "whatever" attitude.

I just don't think the Porter group should be lambasted or eyerolled at because they haven't decided to go that direction (yet).
Having a lawyer other than one appointed by the company is always good lol.

You’re right, the FOAG is old, and certain chapters need to be rewritten completely, especially with the E2 coming into play. And yes the company has been randomly adding and changing policies to fit what works for them.

In my previous time at companies unionized by ALPA, I did not feel that they had the teeth required for major gains. It’s a slow climb at best. They all try their best, and especially when newly appointed board members are gung ho about making changes.

The reality is, it’s never that simple, it’s always a trade: you get something when you give something back.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a good thing to have proper representation and for sure ALPA can help in certain ways. But once you sign that contract, you’re stuck with it…. (Jazz 2035)
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