PPC question

[cyyz]

I think mabey my statement was a little too general as there are a number of other factors that go into a decision. If I was to base my decision soley on hours (which I don't) and ppc's then ya I'd go for the 1000 hour guy with a ppc due to cost savings and speed at which I could get him in the field working.

So you don't like the 1000TT and PPC "gals," you must be related to Mr. Nexje-t(sexism)....

I'm kidding DD...

[Rockie]

Sorry dude but that is just wrong! A PPC is transferable between companies.

Dust Devil

I think we come from different backgrounds. I agree that PPC's can be tranfered between company's in a 703 or 704 carrier. Corporate operators do that all the time when they are short of pilots. They will borrow a pilot qualified on the same type from another company provided they have a PPC from Transport Canada on the same type. This doesn't apply if the pilot comes from a private operator where the company operating certificate is issue by the CBAA. Then the PPC is not transferrable because each company has different requirements. Only a TC PPC is transferrable in this case.

In the case of a 705 operator the PPC is definately not transferrable. There is obviously lower training requirements depending on how current the pilot is on type, but he must still complete a PPC with the new company before flying their aircraft. Even if his last flight was the day before with a previous company. That is because of the different SOP's which are very company specific.

[trey kule]

I think maybe we need TC Guy here...

[gonfly'n]

whats the big deal, while you're worrying about not doing something to undercut the guy next in line, he's already begun screwing you.

[Dust Devil]

I think mabey my statement was a little too general as there are a number of other factors that go into a decision. If I was to base my decision soley on hours (which I don't) and ppc's then ya I'd go for the 1000 hour guy with a ppc due to cost savings and speed at which I could get him in the field working.

So you don't like the 1000TT and PPC "gals," you must be related to Mr. Nexje-t(sexism)....

I'm kidding DD...

Don't worry man I love our aviation sisters

[Spokes]

"Jumping the que"? That supposes that there is some kind of line for pilot jobs that you can jump ahead of. Why do so many feel they are owed a job after they get to a certain point?

How is getting a PPC any different from buying a block of 50 hrs on a float plane to put yourself a little further ahead?

I do agree that it would be bad if that many people went out and bought PPC's that employers would start to expect this as normal. I think however it will eventually happen. Luckily at the moment not to many people can afford to do this.

So what exactly is the line where we can use our own money to train ourselves without being considdered bad people:

-PPL? CPL? Instructor Rateing. (Monst people would say this is ok I think)
-Float Rating (Some have said that 'If they like you they should train you)
-50 hour float course? (Is this all that different to C185 as PPC is to a Ho)
-50 hour course + a block of 50Hrs?
-PPC on a Ho?
-PPC King Air?
-PPC RJ?

I suspect that many would disagree on what is 'ok' and what is not.

[172pilot]

Good post Spokes and I agree with you. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer and the line of where you stop educating yourself and the employer takes over keeps expanding each decade. Now you need a MBA/CA/CFA not just a BA or highschool and just having your CPL might not be enough in a few years. I think it boils down to increased competition.

[AntiNakedMan]

Spokes, the moral and ethical issue of buying a PPC boils down to this: When you purchase a PPC you do two things: A) You are indicating to the employers in this industry that it is OK for them to demand a pilot pay for training that is specific to them in terms of the equipment they operate. B) You are using your wallet to 'jump queue' ahead of those folks who have possibly been working harder, are more experienced, and are better pilots than you, but you have cash, and could care less about their situation because you're too busy looking out for #1 at all costs.

Think of it this way: How do you feel when you're standing in line at the club, with your girl, and the band's about to start, the bouncer keeps telling you there's no way you're getting in until someone leaves, and then Billy-bob Poseur rolls up with his piece of eye-candy, flashes a fifty, and struts on in? A little hot under the collar? Ready to reach for a fifty, even if it means you're pounding H2O once you get in? Understand the pay-for-PPC moral issue now?

The reality is, however, that this just might be the way this industry is going. Only those with enough money will be able to afford to get in and stay in this crazy business. Unfortunately, that is going to have the side effect of possibly passing over the odd . Yeager. Shame, really.

Eventually, people will come to the realiziation that life just isn't fair, and at the end of the day, #1 is all you have. So that's who I'll be looking out for.

And if I'm on the ramp someday and get passed over by a guy who bought a PPC, I'll still go to work the next day, because working = money = food = another day for #1.

Anti

[cyyz]

Eventually, people will come to the realiziation that life just isn't fair, and at the end of the day, #1 is all you have. So that's who I'll be looking out for.

And if I'm on the ramp someday and get passed over by a guy who bought a PPC, I'll still go to work the next day, because working = money = food = another day for #1.

Anti

And then one day the company will train you, and you'll be like, thanks for the PPC, you shafted me, and now I'm gonna shaft you and leave to another company without any notice.....

And then that company feels insulted, and so they will only hire DE, and will only hire with bonds..

and then the industry goes spiralling down....

Frankly if you want to look out for #1, just go poison the water cooler, and you'll be flying in no time...

[trey kule]

I dont feel that this is a particularily moral issue. The problem I find with buying a PPC is primarily threefold:

1. The folks selling the PPC's train only to the very minimums and dont deal with such issues as general care of the airplane of really professional flying of the plane., and

2. the pilots buying PPCs are getting alittle ahead of themselves, for example by stepping up from a light twin that they took their IFR rating in, to a medium twin with de-ice/anti-ice, weather avoidance, heavier electrical loads, etc. etc.....and all this when they really have no experience in the basics of IFR flight. All goes well, because the basic flying of the airplane is not that hard, but when something goes a little wild their is big problems, and

3. Those companies that hire you based solely on the fact that you have a current PPC...what does that say to you about how they plan to give you some training on type?

My advice. Take your flying education and experience in steps. If you just got an IFR multi rating get a little experience in actual IFR flight before trying to step. Experience does count.

[cyyz]

My advice. Take your flying education and experience in steps. If you just got an IFR multi rating get a little experience in actual IFR flight before trying to step. Experience does count.

and what experience do you gain on the ramp????

[trey kule]

cyyz wrote:

and what experience do you gain on the ramp????

Patience.....I am joking.

I agree you are not getting any flight experience but that does not negate my argument.

[cyyz]

I agree you are not getting any flight experience but that does not negate my argument.

Trey, southwest which supposedly is amongst the highest paying LCC in NA, will only hire you with a type rating.(3)

in Europe the 250 hour kids are flying 320s and 777's(2)

and as for pt #1, yes, those who sell PPCs often sell their product at or below mimimum requirements, but we also have people who have gone to Bombardier and paid for RJ training, we have other guys who have gone to Flight Safety and paid for their training, and most of the time they got work, and we won't argue that flight safety training is sub-par?

[trey kule]

cyyz

I have the highest respect for Flight Safety Training. For the most part (there are exceptions) you cant come out of there with a PPC.

I am only familiar with Lufthansa's operation in Europe. In their program, when I was involved those "250 hour kids" had company training from zero time and on a par with the finest military training. They also had a rigorous pre-screening before training and a high standard for successfully completing it....and....as time went on they had a great deal of trouble upgrading these career types..so much so that they hired back retired Captains to sit on the flight deck as 'consultants'. The program, in the long run was not particularily successful, however someone more familiar with their current situation might want to comment.

I think you may find the current trend also ends up the same way in the long run. It is very very difficult to substitute training for experience at that level.

Just my thoughts.

[cyyz]

I think you may find the current trend also ends up the same way in the long run. It is very very difficult to substitute training for experience at that level..

So they had carreer F/O's.. =)

But what about us, what do we do with our F/O's? They need to move on as Captains? Some even venture into the realm of SPIFR.

How do they get the required "experience?"

I'd venture the 1000hr instructor who goes "DE F/O" at CMA will be just as "good" as their 250-999hr rampie that they promote to F/O.

Some of us are good and some of us shouldn't be here... Since everyone likes mentioning ., . replica would have excelled had he bought his PPC or worked his way up, imo...

The dumbest pilot at A/C will one day be a Captain, it's all based on seniority over there... So unless we start giving out jobs based on our license #'s on a first come first served basis, we'll always have guys that "graduate" and try to skip ahead of their peers, some will crash and die, some will fail but a majority of them will survive and fly for the rest of their lives and a minority will make it through, scheming and dealing to the Majors...

PS. Some of your(not you literally) best "experiences" could be bought a Sonic, if you survived that you could get the "experience" of a lifetime..

LoL

[trey kule]

Cyyz.

I wish I had the perfect answer. I don't.

It is something that I have given alot of thought to, and something that has been the topic of some very serious discussions with insurance providers, customer auditors and the like.

There were some very good suggestions, but if I were to post them here you would see a brazillian posts damning me to hell.

I suspect we will just continue, as an industry to muddle along and it will work out in the end.

[cyyz]

I suspect we will just continue, as an industry to muddle along and it will work out in the end.

I hope it works out in the end... But the grass is getting dry nearly every where you look....

[Spokes]

I dont feel that this is a particularily moral issue. The problem I find with buying a PPC is primarily threefold:

1. The folks selling the PPC's train only to the very minimums and dont deal with such issues as general care of the airplane of really professional flying of the plane., and

2. the pilots buying PPCs are getting alittle ahead of themselves, for example by stepping up from a light twin that they took their IFR rating in, to a medium twin with de-ice/anti-ice, weather avoidance, heavier electrical loads, etc. etc.....and all this when they really have no experience in the basics of IFR flight. All goes well, because the basic flying of the airplane is not that hard, but when something goes a little wild their is big problems, and

3. Those companies that hire you based solely on the fact that you have a current PPC...what does that say to you about how they plan to give you some training on type?

My advice. Take your flying education and experience in steps. If you just got an IFR multi rating get a little experience in actual IFR flight before trying to step. Experience does count.

Are these not the concern of the prospective employer? If they feel it is not enough, then no job. How do employers weigh the advantages of not providing a PPC to the disadvantages stated above? I don't really know.

I am 42 with a little under 1000 pilot hours, and over 6000 hours as a sensor operator flying as crew on several aircraft types. The leap to dealing with these systems is not a big one for me. I have no plans on doing a PPC, but if that is what i want to spent my hard earned money on, why then can't I?

[trey kule]

spokes wrote

I am 42 with a little under 1000 pilot hours, and over 6000 hours as a sensor operator flying as crew on several aircraft types. The leap to dealing with these systems is not a big one for me. I have no plans on doing a PPC, but if that is what i want to spent my hard earned money on, why then can't I?
_________________

Spokes, you can spend your money any way you want to. I hope I have not given you the impression otherwise.
As to your particular situation, let me ask you a question...do you think that is typical of the pilots asking about buying PPC's? The sense I get is that they have less total time and no relevant experience.
I guess what I am trying to state is that this is a general discussion, you are an exception, and I dont think the exception is the rule.
Personally, I dont understand with that much experience why you would need to bother buying a PPC..you sound very employable...but you did say you had no plans didnt you.

[just curious]

Whether you buy a PPC or not is entirely up to you. You peers at your new company may in fact never know, so in your work relationships with other co-pilots, you may live quite happily.

It is a fact that some companies, mine included, like to hire PPC'ed pilots. But most organizations who look for PPCed applicants like to steal pilots who have work experience on the aircraft type in addition to the much-vaunted PPC card. In this way, they have someone who has likely made all the initial learning errors on someoe else's dime.

Where the problem arises is in this:

• A course of training at an organization such as flight safety will not result in your being given a PPC unless the intended hiring company has in their ops manual approval of that organization as an approved training agency. The card is further contingent on their possesion of a letter from the intended company's HR department saying that you willhave a job contingent on receipt of a PPC. You may, depending on the Check Pilot, not get a PPC ride if you haven't written the exams for the aircraft and operations of that intended company. What you will get is a renewal of your instrument rating.
• Your knowledge of the systems may be adequete, depending on who does your training. But your knowledge of how it appies to your intended company's operation will be marginal at best.
• Your application of the company's SOPs will be non-existent.

Some companies will always hire PPCed pilots because their training costs are in the millions. Ours are. Some will hire a PPCed pilot because their training departments are not formalized. But mainly,some will hire because they need a pilot for a seat right now!

If the company you want to work for is in this circumstance, then you hade better be able to hit the ground running, because your performance will not be as good as your peers. You might well end up with a job, but, ominously, a collection of captains who are saying,"Whoooo that Fred, nice guy, but he sure don't understand much!" Your personal workload after getting hired, is going to be higher to get up to speed compared to a company trained pilot.

When it comes time for the upgrade, it may well be the other drivers who come up for consideration.

For all the posturing we like to take ("I'll never hire/fly with a guy who bought a PPC"), drivers paying for a PPC is still going to happen. Whether the cost benefit of buying a PPC (and the potential baggage that will carry for you with your peers!) outweighs the cost of staying in the right seat at a lower pay scale much longer, is entirely dependent on you, your personality, and your ability to learn quickly.

I haven't had to buy one, but then, I never had to really go out and search desperately for a job with my funds running out.

I do know that when Jetsgo emerged on the scene, I wasn't tempted to pony up any cash, and as a result, I'm not out any money. The cash you expend on a PPC in hopes of improving your visability, has the potential to go up in smoke just like an MD80 PPC.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.