Latest MEC Bulletin

[ZBBYLW]

Outlaw58 and flyingcanuck, you are exhibiting a very typical Jazz pilot mentality - "if you're already on the property at Air Canada, this doesn't affect you" - without considering all of the factors at play.

In case you haven't been following, deferred seniority dates cannot be implemented at AC without the consent of ACPA, i.e., the Air Canada pilot group.

The last time the company tried to implement deferred seniority dates, they packaged it with a host of other concessions in an LOA that would have further eroded our working conditions. This LOA was soundly rejected by the pilot group.

Ask yourself, why should Air Canada pilots take concessions in order to give Jazz pilots deferred seniority dates? A further question - if you want to come work at AC, is deferred seniority worth it to come to a company where the pilot group has made concessions in order to allow that to happen? Concessions that will negatively impact your working conditions for the remainder of your career? I don't think anyone is objecting to deferred seniority on principal alone, because as you say, it doesn't affect those who are on property already one way or another. But the company should act in good faith and incentivize the pilot group to vote in favour of a new LOA that includes deferred seniority for Jazz pilots.

As the old adage goes, "show us the money". Stop trying to sneak concessionary language into every proposal that goes out to the pilot group and actually give us something without asking for anything in return - only then will we see deferred seniority being implemented. Air Canada pilots are in the process of defining a new relationship between themselves in the company that does not simply result in the pilot group voting "yes" to every half-baked proposal that goes out with a few extra dollars attached, but packaged with concessionary language that does much more harm than good to the contract in the long run.

I think you missed Rudder’s initial point, this is in relation to the four party meeting that took place recently and in his mind some parts that should be included in any agreement put forward.
Nobody suggested anything come for free but ZBBYLW, essentially says under no circumstance should anyone not on property get a deferred number. No other way to interpret that!
The email we received from our MEC says a pilot wage reset is needed based on how far we are from our US counterparts, in my mind a deferred number will benefit the AC pilots more than Jazz pilots, by that I mean you will likely get a bigger slice of the increase pie. The deferred number will no doubt be more enticing to Jazz(junior) pilots. Doesn’t mean shit to me, nor do I want an AC number, I want more money now so hopefully I can still retire at 60, but at the current rate 63 is more likely and 65 is still possible. That depresses me, of course if I don’t move to a more expensive province like my wife wants to, I could still do 60, but that’s a me problem.

Looks like a stirred up a hornets nest. I'll reply to this one comment but I think everyone deserves an explanation.

Deferred seniority is a carrot. To have a jazz guy get to reserve a seniority spot at AC likely means he's giving up something for that seniority number. It's a way IMO to pay the jazz guys less as they have light at the end of the tunnel. If they leave QK and go to Porter or Encore, or even a 737 operation they loose that carrot. Without the carrot Jazz will have to pay to keep talent.

Also if you have guys reserving seniority numbers while other guys (who are in many instances more experienced than the average jazz hire - overseas guys, Transat, Sunwing, WestJet, military guys etc) in the event of another furlough who pays the price? The "junior" guy who has been here longer than the jazz pilot with a reserved seniority number.

I was 110% against the reserved seniority numbers before where senior jazz guys were able to stay at Jazz and parachute into AC when it was convenient for them. I made that known to my union reps, but until recently the union didn't work for the membership.

The jazz guys and girls are for the most part great, but so too are outside hires. Giving preferential treatment to one group and let them grab a number prior to PIT course hurts the profession as well as the other pilots who are here already contributing to the button line.

[rudder]

The jazz guys and girls are for the most part great, but so too are outside hires. Giving preferential treatment to one group and let them grab a number prior to PIT course hurts the profession as well as the other pilots who are here already contributing to the button line.

So flying AC customers on Express metal does not contribute to the AC bottom line? But flying WJ customers at WJ or Encore does? Or cargo for Cargojet or Morningstar? Or vacation customers on Transat or Sunwing?

Interesting perspective.

Yes, there are some more experienced pilots out there to be hired by AC. But some are less experienced than Jazz pilot applicants in the flow stream.

In case nobody had noticed, there is a flow arrangement in place. It does not need your approval or consent. Nor ACPA’s. It just simply is not being honoured.

We can all do better and help the profession.

[cdnavater]

Outlaw58 and flyingcanuck, you are exhibiting a very typical Jazz pilot mentality - "if you're already on the property at Air Canada, this doesn't affect you" - without considering all of the factors at play.

In case you haven't been following, deferred seniority dates cannot be implemented at AC without the consent of ACPA, i.e., the Air Canada pilot group.

The last time the company tried to implement deferred seniority dates, they packaged it with a host of other concessions in an LOA that would have further eroded our working conditions. This LOA was soundly rejected by the pilot group.

Ask yourself, why should Air Canada pilots take concessions in order to give Jazz pilots deferred seniority dates? A further question - if you want to come work at AC, is deferred seniority worth it to come to a company where the pilot group has made concessions in order to allow that to happen? Concessions that will negatively impact your working conditions for the remainder of your career? I don't think anyone is objecting to deferred seniority on principal alone, because as you say, it doesn't affect those who are on property already one way or another. But the company should act in good faith and incentivize the pilot group to vote in favour of a new LOA that includes deferred seniority for Jazz pilots.

As the old adage goes, "show us the money". Stop trying to sneak concessionary language into every proposal that goes out to the pilot group and actually give us something without asking for anything in return - only then will we see deferred seniority being implemented. Air Canada pilots are in the process of defining a new relationship between themselves in the company that does not simply result in the pilot group voting "yes" to every half-baked proposal that goes out with a few extra dollars attached, but packaged with concessionary language that does much more harm than good to the contract in the long run.

I think you missed Rudder’s initial point, this is in relation to the four party meeting that took place recently and in his mind some parts that should be included in any agreement put forward.
Nobody suggested anything come for free but ZBBYLW, essentially says under no circumstance should anyone not on property get a deferred number. No other way to interpret that!
The email we received from our MEC says a pilot wage reset is needed based on how far we are from our US counterparts, in my mind a deferred number will benefit the AC pilots more than Jazz pilots, by that I mean you will likely get a bigger slice of the increase pie. The deferred number will no doubt be more enticing to Jazz(junior) pilots. Doesn’t mean shit to me, nor do I want an AC number, I want more money now so hopefully I can still retire at 60, but at the current rate 63 is more likely and 65 is still possible. That depresses me, of course if I don’t move to a more expensive province like my wife wants to, I could still do 60, but that’s a me problem.

Looks like a stirred up a hornets nest. I'll reply to this one comment but I think everyone deserves an explanation.

Deferred seniority is a carrot. To have a jazz guy get to reserve a seniority spot at AC likely means he's giving up something for that seniority number. It's a way IMO to pay the jazz guys less as they have light at the end of the tunnel. If they leave QK and go to Porter or Encore, or even a 737 operation they loose that carrot. Without the carrot Jazz will have to pay to keep talent.

Also if you have guys reserving seniority numbers while other guys (who are in many instances more experienced than the average jazz hire - overseas guys, Transat, Sunwing, WestJet, military guys etc) in the event of another furlough who pays the price? The "junior" guy who has been here longer than the jazz pilot with a reserved seniority number.

I was 110% against the reserved seniority numbers before where senior jazz guys were able to stay at Jazz and parachute into AC when it was convenient for them. I made that known to my union reps, but until recently the union didn't work for the membership.

The jazz guys and girls are for the most part great, but so too are outside hires. Giving preferential treatment to one group and let them grab a number prior to PIT course hurts the profession as well as the other pilots who are here already contributing to the button line.

Absolutely, like I said a reserved number would likely benefit AC pilots more in any forthcoming agreement, you already turned one down, if something comes back it would have to be significant.
I personally would prefer a bigger wage increase with no flow but it’s not fair to those that came for the “guaranteed” flow, the ones that would be there(AC) already, what damage was done to their careers?
Thanks for clarifying, it’s much better than under no circumstances….

[ZBBYLW]

The jazz guys and girls are for the most part great, but so too are outside hires. Giving preferential treatment to one group and let them grab a number prior to PIT course hurts the profession as well as the other pilots who are here already contributing to the button line.

So flying AC customers on Express metal does not contribute to the AC bottom line? But flying WJ customers at WJ or Encore does? Or cargo for Cargojet or Morningstar? Or vacation customers on Transat or Sunwing?

Interesting perspective.

Yes, there are some more experienced pilots out there to be hired by AC. But some are less experienced than Jazz pilot applicants in the flow stream.

In case nobody had noticed, there is a flow arrangement in place. It does not need your approval or consent. Nor ACPA’s. It just simply is not being honoured.

We can all do better and help the profession.

Fair point about the bottom line. But they ultimately are a seperate OC, seperate bargaining unit and company.

Helping the profession though would be to not help the flow through. Either AC honours the flow, or the CA has to be amended and Jazz likely will have to seriously improve their CA and pay to attract and keep talent.

[rudder]

Fair point about the bottom line. But they ultimately are a seperate OC, seperate bargaining unit and company.

Helping the profession though would be to not help the flow through. Either AC honours the flow, or the CA has to be amended and Jazz likely will have to seriously improve their CA and pay to attract and keep talent.

I think that the more enlightened AC pilots do not share your perspective. That is not intended as a slight, just an observation. Bottom line is that if improved flow (lower ratio but ability to defer PIT course or to be held back) with a reserved number is bundled with a myriad of improvements for AC pilots with zero concessions in an MOA - it will pass.

As for the Jazz CBA - every E175 CA at Jazz could quit today for Porter and would be looking at a 14-75% raise just in year 1. Significantly more over time (up to 150%). And in your paradigm these same pilots would have a better opportunity of getting hired by AC OTS than staying at Jazz hoping for a flow opportunity under the status quo flow arrangement (presuming that it is honoured).

The 4 parties that met understand this evolving reality and likely agree it is not sustainable. So they will look for a better model. Here’s hoping that the best minds are present and working on solutions.

[Transition9er2]

Rudder I agree with a lot of what you have to say in the majority of your posts, but I’m not sure I can get there on this one.

Honest question, help me understand why AC would raise pay for both AC pilots and Jazz pilots with zero concessions simply to allow Jazz pilots to obtain a seniority number and defer a move to AC?

Jazz pilots get a raise because Chorus can’t hire or retain pilots in this market. - this fully makes sense to me, I agree 100%.

But then you’re suggesting that AC pilots deserve a raise simply for agreeing to let Jazz pilots obtain a seniority number and then deferring a start date? That alone is the how/why AC pilots get a raise?

The problem I have with this is, AC doesn’t need Jazz flow to fill their classes at the moment. As much as it pains me to say it, AC is likely the only airline in the country who is filling their classes right now. Why would they give up so much (raises for both pilot groups) to protect a flow agreement that honestly doesn’t make sense.

Trust me, I want management to burn just as much as the next guy… but I’m failing to see your point on this one.

[RockSalty]

Rudder I agree with a lot of what you have to say in the majority of your posts, but I’m not sure I can get there on this one.

Honest question, help me understand why AC would raise pay for both AC pilots and Jazz pilots with zero concessions simply to allow Jazz pilots to obtain a seniority number and defer a move to AC?

Jazz pilots get a raise because Chorus can’t hire or retain pilots in this market. - this fully makes sense to me, I agree 100%.

But then you’re suggesting that AC pilots deserve a raise simply for agreeing to let Jazz pilots obtain a seniority number and then deferring a start date? That alone is the how/why AC pilots get a raise?

The problem I have with this is, AC doesn’t need Jazz flow to fill their classes at the moment. As much as it pains me to say it, AC is likely the only airline in the country who is filling their classes right now. Why would they give up so much (raises for both pilot groups) to protect a flow agreement that honestly doesn’t make sense.

Trust me, I want management to burn just as much as the next guy… but I’m failing to see your point on this one.

If it’s something the company wants that does not benefit air Canada pilots, then they can and should use it to negotiate and get a raise or something. Why should AC pilots agree to it otherwise if there’s nothing in it for them?

[rudder]

Rudder I agree with a lot of what you have to say in the majority of your posts, but I’m not sure I can get there on this one.

Honest question, help me understand why AC would raise pay for both AC pilots and Jazz pilots with zero concessions simply to allow Jazz pilots to obtain a seniority number and defer a move to AC?

Jazz pilots get a raise because Chorus can’t hire or retain pilots in this market. - this fully makes sense to me, I agree 100%.

But then you’re suggesting that AC pilots deserve a raise simply for agreeing to let Jazz pilots obtain a seniority number and then deferring a start date? That alone is the how/why AC pilots get a raise?

The problem I have with this is, AC doesn’t need Jazz flow to fill their classes at the moment. As much as it pains me to say it, AC is likely the only airline in the country who is filling their classes right now. Why would they give up so much (raises for both pilot groups) to protect a flow agreement that honestly doesn’t make sense.

Trust me, I want management to burn just as much as the next guy… but I’m failing to see your point on this one.

The pay reset is not related to flow. It is a response to market realities for pilot supply. AC has already admitted via the failed MOA that entry level pay at AC is deficient irrespective of class occupancy.

Is AC getting the most qualified OTS pilots? In some cases yes, and in some cases no.

Pay increases at both Jazz and AC are a mark-to-market exercise. AC should be the highest paying job on all aircraft types in Canada. And Jazz has fallen so far behind the market that it is challenged to meet its flying obligations under the CPA due to pilot staffing issues (attrition rates, recruitment, and retention).

There is a flow agreement in place. 60% if there are enough Jazz flow applicants. And it is technically in place until 2035 and cannot be unilaterally amended (although it appears it can be unilaterally ignored).

There are better solutions out there. Flow will simply be bundled up in any potential multilateral solution, although ratifications will apply to local CBA’s and be ratified locally.

[Curiousflyer]

ACPA MEC need to acknowledge that deferred employment (with a seniority number) needs to be part of Jazz flow (as it was in PML 1.0

This should never ever happen again. All it does is drive down wages at Jazz, which drives down wages at all the regionals in Canada. There has never been a solid case for improving pilot wages by offering seniority numbers, all its ever done is lower wages and create whipsaw. How many US regionals offer seniority numbers? None.

Jazz should compete with AC to retain as many pilots as they can, then you’ll see regional salaries go up, just like in the states. The salary obviously won’t be as high as AC, but you’ll have plenty of people make a lifestyle choice to stay at a regional, especially those who don’t have as many years left until retirement.

I have no horse in this race, but I do want to see improved wages and conditions across the board in Canada for future generations.

[futboler14]

Rudder I agree with a lot of what you have to say in the majority of your posts, but I’m not sure I can get there on this one.

I’m also a big rudder fan.

I too am having trouble getting behind him on this particular thought.

[Fanblade]

ACPA MEC need to acknowledge that deferred employment (with a seniority number) needs to be part of Jazz flow (as it was in PML 1.0

This should never ever happen again. All it does is drive down wages at Jazz, which drives down wages at all the regionals in Canada. There has never been a solid case for improving pilot wages by offering seniority numbers, all its ever done is lower wages and create whipsaw. How many US regionals offer seniority numbers? None.

Jazz should compete with AC to retain as many pilots as they can, then you’ll see regional salaries go up, just like in the states. The salary obviously won’t be as high as AC, but you’ll have plenty of people make a lifestyle choice to stay at a regional, especially those who don’t have as many years left until retirement.

I have no horse in this race, but I do want to see improved wages and conditions across the board in Canada for future generations.

It is true US companies used flow through as a carrot in exchange for lower wages in the past. It is also true that AC modelled this approach about 10 years ago.

So I get the rational that flow throughs equal lower wages because that was their intent. And up until now it worked in the US and at AC. Now it’s failing.

The pilot shortage showed up. Supply and demand got inverted. At first US regional tried hiring bonuses. But that didn’t provide retention. So wages went up. That still didn’t provide retention. Now they have both.

Proper wages first and foremost. A flow through for retention.

The point is the two are no longer mutually exclusive. You can have both. Air Canada needs retention. They will have to provide both without leaning on flow as a carrot to extract lower wages.

As for mainline pilots. This leverage is not a totality of the leverage we have. Rather simply a piece. There is a reason AC wants to get rid of a large portion of flat pay. Mainline too needs to attract quickly upgradable people to meet its expansion goals. What has happened at Jazz is a stark reminder of what happens if you fill your ground schools with people who can’t upgrade quickly.

[Transition9er2]

Rudder I agree with a lot of what you have to say in the majority of your posts, but I’m not sure I can get there on this one.

Honest question, help me understand why AC would raise pay for both AC pilots and Jazz pilots with zero concessions simply to allow Jazz pilots to obtain a seniority number and defer a move to AC?

Jazz pilots get a raise because Chorus can’t hire or retain pilots in this market. - this fully makes sense to me, I agree 100%.

But then you’re suggesting that AC pilots deserve a raise simply for agreeing to let Jazz pilots obtain a seniority number and then deferring a start date? That alone is the how/why AC pilots get a raise?

The problem I have with this is, AC doesn’t need Jazz flow to fill their classes at the moment. As much as it pains me to say it, AC is likely the only airline in the country who is filling their classes right now. Why would they give up so much (raises for both pilot groups) to protect a flow agreement that honestly doesn’t make sense.

Trust me, I want management to burn just as much as the next guy… but I’m failing to see your point on this one.

The pay reset is not related to flow. It is a response to market realities for pilot supply. AC has already admitted via the failed MOA that entry level pay at AC is deficient irrespective of class occupancy.

Is AC getting the most qualified OTS pilots? In some cases yes, and in some cases no.

Pay increases at both Jazz and AC are a mark-to-market exercise. AC should be the highest paying job on all aircraft types in Canada. And Jazz has fallen so far behind the market that it is challenged to meet its flying obligations under the CPA due to pilot staffing issues (attrition rates, recruitment, and retention).

There is a flow agreement in place. 60% if there are enough Jazz flow applicants. And it is technically in place until 2035 and cannot be unilaterally amended (although it appears it can be unilaterally ignored).

There are better solutions out there. Flow will simply be bundled up in any potential multilateral solution, although ratifications will apply to local CBA’s and be ratified locally.

Sure, I understand there’s an agreement in place until 2035. But again, from a business standpoint, AC knows that Jazz will run out of pilots who qualify to flow to AC in the very near future.

How many Jazz pilots meet the requirements to flow and actually want to flow over? My guess is that number doesn’t equal 60% of AC hiring metrics this year.

AC doesn’t need to cancel flow, they know Jazz doesn’t have the numbers to make it worth while moving forward.

Again, why would AC commit to giving so much to both Jazz and AC when they get so little back in return?

I feel like there’s a significantly stronger case to make to AC and Chorus for improved wages.

Maybe I’m wrong and I’m missing something. But I just don’t see AC agreeing to this line of thinking.

Pay needs to be fixed, 100%… but the fact that the idea of pushing or including a deferred seniority number is directly linked to Flow and I just don’t see how it holds any weight here.

[Curiousflyer]

So flying AC customers on Express metal does not contribute to the AC bottom line? But flying WJ customers at WJ or Encore does? Or cargo for Cargojet or Morningstar? Or vacation customers on Transat or Sunwing?

Interesting perspective.

This is the most idiotic statement I’ve seen you make. Foreign pilots at Eurowings contribute more to AC’s bottom line then any Jazz pilot ever will, should we offer them seniority numbers too? The income stream of AC is varied amongst all star alliance and codeshare partners, the regional carrier is a small portion of that.

I want to see Jazz wages go up, the best way to do that is to compete and pay market rates, not whipsaw and carrots on sticks.

[Fanblade]

Rudder I agree with a lot of what you have to say in the majority of your posts, but I’m not sure I can get there on this one.

Honest question, help me understand why AC would raise pay for both AC pilots and Jazz pilots with zero concessions simply to allow Jazz pilots to obtain a seniority number and defer a move to AC?

Jazz pilots get a raise because Chorus can’t hire or retain pilots in this market. - this fully makes sense to me, I agree 100%.

But then you’re suggesting that AC pilots deserve a raise simply for agreeing to let Jazz pilots obtain a seniority number and then deferring a start date? That alone is the how/why AC pilots get a raise?

The problem I have with this is, AC doesn’t need Jazz flow to fill their classes at the moment. As much as it pains me to say it, AC is likely the only airline in the country who is filling their classes right now. Why would they give up so much (raises for both pilot groups) to protect a flow agreement that honestly doesn’t make sense.

Trust me, I want management to burn just as much as the next guy… but I’m failing to see your point on this one.

The pay reset is not related to flow. It is a response to market realities for pilot supply. AC has already admitted via the failed MOA that entry level pay at AC is deficient irrespective of class occupancy.

Is AC getting the most qualified OTS pilots? In some cases yes, and in some cases no.

Pay increases at both Jazz and AC are a mark-to-market exercise. AC should be the highest paying job on all aircraft types in Canada. And Jazz has fallen so far behind the market that it is challenged to meet its flying obligations under the CPA due to pilot staffing issues (attrition rates, recruitment, and retention).

There is a flow agreement in place. 60% if there are enough Jazz flow applicants. And it is technically in place until 2035 and cannot be unilaterally amended (although it appears it can be unilaterally ignored).

There are better solutions out there. Flow will simply be bundled up in any potential multilateral solution, although ratifications will apply to local CBA’s and be ratified locally.

Sure, I understand there’s an agreement in place until 2035. But again, from a business standpoint, AC knows that Jazz will run out of pilots who qualify to flow to AC in the very near future.

How many Jazz pilots meet the requirements to flow and actually want to flow over? My guess is that number doesn’t equal 60% of AC hiring metrics this year.

AC doesn’t need to cancel flow, they know Jazz doesn’t have the numbers to make it worth while moving forward.

Again, why would AC commit to giving so much to both Jazz and AC when they get so little back in return?

I feel like there’s a significantly stronger case to make to AC and Chorus for improved wages.

Maybe I’m wrong and I’m missing something. But I just don’t see AC agreeing to this line of thinking.

Pay needs to be fixed, 100%… but the fact that the idea of pushing or including a deferred seniority number is directly linked to Flow and I just don’t see how it holds any weight here.

Pilot shortage. Jazz hired too many people who are not quickly upgradable. Now they are stuck.

The problem at Jazz will only get worse if wages don’t go up AND flow is not adhered too. More quickly upgradable pilots will leave. The problem is Jazz is so far behind now that they can’t afford to let people flow. What they need in order to clean up the mess is the ability to reserve numbers at AC in an effort to hold people back at Jazz and rebuild. Without reserved numbers Jazz can’t retain and recover. If Jazz doesn’t recover AC’s operation is at risk.

[Fanblade]

So flying AC customers on Express metal does not contribute to the AC bottom line? But flying WJ customers at WJ or Encore does? Or cargo for Cargojet or Morningstar? Or vacation customers on Transat or Sunwing?

Interesting perspective.

This is the most idiotic statement I’ve seen you make. Foreign pilots at Eurowings contribute more to AC’s bottom line then any Jazz pilot ever will, should we offer them seniority numbers too? The income stream of AC is varied amongst all star alliance and codeshare partners, the regional carrier is a small portion of that.

I want to see Jazz wages go up, the best way to do that is to compete and pay market rates, not whipsaw and carrots on sticks.

Are you kidding me? Air Canada would not survive without a regional.

Right from the horses mouth. Year end MD&A. Forward looking risk.

Significant increases in Jazz’s costs, the failure by Jazz to adequately fulfill its obligations under the Jazz CPA, factors that may reduce the utilization of the Jazz fleet, including economic or market downturns or the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic, and unexpected interruptions or cessation of Jazz’s services, as well as similar circumstances relating to other airlines from whom Air Canada may source regional capacity, could have a material adverse effect on Air Canada, its business, results from operations and financial condition.

[Curiousflyer]

So flying AC customers on Express metal does not contribute to the AC bottom line? But flying WJ customers at WJ or Encore does? Or cargo for Cargojet or Morningstar? Or vacation customers on Transat or Sunwing?

Interesting perspective.

This is the most idiotic statement I’ve seen you make. Foreign pilots at Eurowings contribute more to AC’s bottom line then any Jazz pilot ever will, should we offer them seniority numbers too? The income stream of AC is varied amongst all star alliance and codeshare partners, the regional carrier is a small portion of that.

I want to see Jazz wages go up, the best way to do that is to compete and pay market rates, not whipsaw and carrots on sticks.

Are you kidding me? Air Canada would not survive without a regional.

Right from the horses mouth. Year end MD&A. Forward looking risk.

Significant increases in Jazz’s costs, the failure by Jazz to adequately fulfill its obligations under the Jazz CPA, factors that may reduce the utilization of the Jazz fleet, including economic or market downturns or the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic, and unexpected interruptions or cessation of Jazz’s services, as well as similar circumstances relating to other airlines from whom Air Canada may source regional capacity, could have a material adverse effect on Air Canada, its business, results from operations and financial condition.

Should I quote the section on Air Canada’s dependence on Star Alliance partners and joint ventures?

I never claimed AC would survive without a regional, I said that other airlines pilots contribute more to AC’s bottom line than Jazz pilots do.

[Fanblade]

This is the most idiotic statement I’ve seen you make. Foreign pilots at Eurowings contribute more to AC’s bottom line then any Jazz pilot ever will, should we offer them seniority numbers too? The income stream of AC is varied amongst all star alliance and codeshare partners, the regional carrier is a small portion of that.

I want to see Jazz wages go up, the best way to do that is to compete and pay market rates, not whipsaw and carrots on sticks.

Are you kidding me? Air Canada would not survive without a regional.

Right from the horses mouth. Year end MD&A. Forward looking risk.

Significant increases in Jazz’s costs, the failure by Jazz to adequately fulfill its obligations under the Jazz CPA, factors that may reduce the utilization of the Jazz fleet, including economic or market downturns or the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic, and unexpected interruptions or cessation of Jazz’s services, as well as similar circumstances relating to other airlines from whom Air Canada may source regional capacity, could have a material adverse effect on Air Canada, its business, results from operations and financial condition.

Should I quote the section on Air Canada’s dependence on Star Alliance partners and joint ventures?

I never claimed AC would survive without a regional, I said that other airlines pilots contribute more to AC’s bottom line than Jazz pilots do.

You are referring to joint ventures? They are virtual mergers. Those are revenue sharing. AC earns a percentage of the gross sales based on the percentage of flying we do. Other airlines or pilots don’t make AC money. Certainly being part of a strategic alliance does.

[Transition9er2]

The pay reset is not related to flow. It is a response to market realities for pilot supply. AC has already admitted via the failed MOA that entry level pay at AC is deficient irrespective of class occupancy.

Is AC getting the most qualified OTS pilots? In some cases yes, and in some cases no.

Pay increases at both Jazz and AC are a mark-to-market exercise. AC should be the highest paying job on all aircraft types in Canada. And Jazz has fallen so far behind the market that it is challenged to meet its flying obligations under the CPA due to pilot staffing issues (attrition rates, recruitment, and retention).

There is a flow agreement in place. 60% if there are enough Jazz flow applicants. And it is technically in place until 2035 and cannot be unilaterally amended (although it appears it can be unilaterally ignored).

There are better solutions out there. Flow will simply be bundled up in any potential multilateral solution, although ratifications will apply to local CBA’s and be ratified locally.

Sure, I understand there’s an agreement in place until 2035. But again, from a business standpoint, AC knows that Jazz will run out of pilots who qualify to flow to AC in the very near future.

How many Jazz pilots meet the requirements to flow and actually want to flow over? My guess is that number doesn’t equal 60% of AC hiring metrics this year.

AC doesn’t need to cancel flow, they know Jazz doesn’t have the numbers to make it worth while moving forward.

Again, why would AC commit to giving so much to both Jazz and AC when they get so little back in return?

I feel like there’s a significantly stronger case to make to AC and Chorus for improved wages.

Maybe I’m wrong and I’m missing something. But I just don’t see AC agreeing to this line of thinking.

Pay needs to be fixed, 100%… but the fact that the idea of pushing or including a deferred seniority number is directly linked to Flow and I just don’t see how it holds any weight here.

Pilot shortage. Jazz hired too many people who are not quickly upgradable. Now they are stuck.

The problem at Jazz will only get worse if wages don’t go up AND flow is not adhered too. More quickly upgradable pilots will leave. The problem is Jazz is so far behind now that they can’t afford to let people flow. What they need in order to clean up the mess is the ability to reserve numbers at AC in an effort to hold people back at Jazz and rebuild. Without reserved numbers Jazz can’t retain and recover. If Jazz doesn’t recover AC’s operation is at risk.

And there it is. You just hit the nail on the head… Jazz can’t afford to let ppl flow!

So again, why does a reserved seniority system make sense in this case? Why would the company come to the table and agree to give raises to both pilot groups so long as we can agree on a reserved seniority list when ultimately Jazz represents such a small number of pilots compared to AC’s hiring needs. At what point does AC say it’s not worth it and it makes more sense to blow up the CA, get rid of flow and give a sizeable pay increase in wages to attract and retain pilots specifically at Jazz?

Trust me, if ACPA said I got to vote on getting a 30% pay increase with no changes to scope and zero concessions to our contract and it allowed jazz pilots to get a deferred seniority number and a pay raise as well… I’d likely vote “hell ya”

But my main question is “why would AC go for that”??

[Fanblade]

Pilot shortage. Jazz hired too many people who are not quickly upgradable. Now they are stuck.

The problem at Jazz will only get worse if wages don’t go up AND flow is not adhered too. More quickly upgradable pilots will leave. The problem is Jazz is so far behind now that they can’t afford to let people flow. What they need in order to clean up the mess is the ability to reserve numbers at AC in an effort to hold people back at Jazz and rebuild. Without reserved numbers Jazz can’t retain and recover. If Jazz doesn’t recover AC’s operation is at risk.

And there it is. You just hit the nail on the head… Jazz can’t afford to let ppl flow!

So again, why does a reserved seniority system make sense in this case? Why would the company come to the table and agree to give raises to both pilot groups so long as we can agree on a reserved seniority list when ultimately Jazz represents such a small number of pilots compared to AC’s hiring needs. At what point does AC say it’s not worth it and it makes more sense to blow up the CA, get rid of flow and give a sizeable pay increase in wages to attract and retain pilots specifically at Jazz?

First point. In the latest failed MOA the reserved numbers were AirCanada’s idea. Not ACPA’s. They wanted the reserved numbers to give them time to suspend flow and rebuild Jazz. Stopping flow without reserved numbers could make the situation worse. That MOA failed. Notice that AC pulled out of markets in favour of keeping flow moving. They could have done the opposite. But if more people started jumping ship that could have turned the situation for summer 2023 into a tail spin.

Second point. Flow through is not meant to fulfill all of AC’s hiring needs. It never was. It’s primary purpose is a tool for retention at the regional. It does have a side benefit of providing a portion of the quickly upgradable pilots mainline needs.

Third point. If you don’t have flow the only way to AC is through another airline. That incentivizes pilots to leave Jazz. That would be a very poor business decision. Flow is essential. Stopping it risky.

Fourth point. AC would not survive without a regional airline.

Fifth point. This is not the only piece of leverage mainline pilots have. It is a single source. However you don’t give away any source without extracting value.

Sixth point. With the supply shortage of quickly upgradable pilots flow through and wage increases are no longer mutually exclusive. I agree flow was used in the past to the degradation of pay.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Where’s the emoji for carrot and stick when you need one?

Words on a screen mean nothing more than the few kilobytes of data they suck from your US data plan every month when you read those emails on layovers. Everyone should be calling their union reps at all hours of the clock at this point.

[rudder]

First point. In the latest failed MOA the reserved numbers were AirCanada’s idea. Not ACPA’s. They wanted the reserved numbers to give them time to suspend flow and rebuild Jazz. Stopping flow without reserved numbers could make the situation worse. That MOA failed. Notice that AC pulled out of markets in favour of keeping flow moving. They could have done the opposite. But if more people started jumping ship that could have turned the situation for summer 2023 into a tail spin.

Second point. Flow through is not meant to fulfill all of AC’s hiring needs. It never was. It’s primary purpose is a tool for retention at the regional. It does have a side benefit of providing a portion of the quickly upgradable pilots mainline needs.

Third point. If you don’t have flow the only way to AC is through another airline. That incentivizes pilots to leave Jazz. That would be a very poor business decision. Flow is essential. Stopping it risky.

Fourth point. AC would not survive without a regional airline.

Fifth point. This is not the only piece of leverage mainline pilots have. It is a single source. However you don’t give away any source without extracting value.

Sixth point. With the supply shortage of quickly upgradable pilots flow through and wage increases are no longer mutually exclusive. I agree flow was used in the past to the degradation of pay.

Agreed. Thank you for articulating why amended and rationalized flow needs to be part of a broader set of improvements going forward.

[rudder]

This is the most idiotic statement I’ve seen you make. Foreign pilots at Eurowings contribute more to AC’s bottom line then any Jazz pilot ever will, should we offer them seniority numbers too? The income stream of AC is varied amongst all star alliance and codeshare partners, the regional carrier is a small portion of that.

Please direct me to the public financial document that validates that claim.

Jazz operates 700 flights per day carrying exclusively AC pax. I believe it is approximately 10 million passengers per year where the ticket revenue goes almost exclusively to AC. What other STAR carrier moves 10 million AC passengers per year? And what portion of that ticket revenue is shared with AC?

Let’s deal in reality. The purpose of the CHR CPA is for Jazz to carry AC passengers. There is no other purpose. There is no revenue sharing. And no other CDN air carrier is doing that for AC. So that doesn’t mean that Jazz pilots move to the front of the line. But they are the only other Part 705 carrier moving AC passengers under the Express banner. Nobody else in Canada (other than mainline) shares that distinction.

I don’t think that maintaining 60% hiring ratio necessarily should continue. Maybe 50%. Even then the Jazz supply line will probably be exhausted. But logistically it makes more sense to hire a pilot at Jazz, train them, get them 705 experience, upgrade them, accrue a meaningful amount of command experience, and eventually send AC the most competent pilot with solid operational experience. That won’t happen without some type of deferred seniority mechanism. And remember - in many cases a deferred seniority spot from Jazz will most likely be filled by an OTS pilot. A win-win situation.

I am guessing that you are not part of the negotiating committee nor the representational structure. Neither am I. We will each get one vote when and if any agreements are reached that affect our respective CBA’s. But we each have our opinions. I welcome the discourse because challenge is part of the validation of proposals. But the basis must be facts.

[Curiousflyer]

This is the most idiotic statement I’ve seen you make. Foreign pilots at Eurowings contribute more to AC’s bottom line then any Jazz pilot ever will, should we offer them seniority numbers too? The income stream of AC is varied amongst all star alliance and codeshare partners, the regional carrier is a small portion of that.

Please direct me to the public financial document that validates that claim.

Jazz operates 700 flights per day carrying exclusively AC pax. I believe it is approximately 10 million passengers per year where the ticket revenue goes almost exclusively to AC. What other STAR carrier moves 10 million AC passengers per year? And what portion of that ticket revenue is shared with AC?

Let’s deal in reality. The purpose of the CHR CPA is for Jazz to carry AC passengers. There is no other purpose. There is no revenue sharing. And no other CDN air carrier is doing that for AC. So that doesn’t mean that Jazz pilots move to the front of the line. But they are the only other Part 705 carrier moving AC passengers under the Express banner. Nobody else in Canada (other than mainline) shares that distinction.

I don’t think that maintaining 60% hiring ratio necessarily should continue. Maybe 50%. Even then the Jazz supply line will probably be exhausted. But logistically it makes more sense to hire a pilot at Jazz, train them, get them 705 experience, upgrade them, accrue a meaningful amount of command experience, and eventually send AC the most competent pilot with solid operational experience. That won’t happen without some type of deferred seniority mechanism. And remember - in many cases a deferred seniority spot from Jazz will most likely be filled by an OTS pilot. A win-win situation.

I am guessing that you are not part of the negotiating committee nor the representational structure. Neither am I. We will each get one vote when and if any agreements are reached that affect our respective CBA’s. But we each have our opinions. I welcome the discourse because challenge is part of the validation of proposals. But the basis must be facts.

I can’t present public data on my point, so I’ll simply concede in saying, it’s really complicated. Trying to determine which pilot groups contribute more to AC’s bottom line is impossible without a deep dive into the revenue stream. Foreign pilots undoubtedly contribute significantly to AC’s bottom line, and Air Canada would not survive as an airline without them. Ultimately, I agree with you in the sense that Air Canada needs a regional carrier to survive, but disagree that regional pilots should get reserved seniority number. It only lowers wages and working conditions for pilots across the country.

[hithere]

That is rubbish. Pilots at most of the CPA carriers in the US have 100% guaranteed flow with no interview required and reserved seniority numbers at their affiliated majors and that has not diminished pay at either. On the contrary, they have achieved extraordinary gains, at both the CPA and majors with reserved numbers

[sportingrifle]

Yes, and they all have ATPL’s. And they are all working for companies that thanks to economies of scale and large government COVID bailouts are highly profitable.
Not saying we don’t deserve large pay raises or that flow couldn’t work, but the playing field is pretty different above the frost belt.