Flair Pilots

[vrefplus5]

Lots of gloom being sent from non-flair pilots.

I'm very curious on what the internal consensus is with the entire situation. Has there been any communication from executives to any staff?

Heard that CEO addressed most employees and apologized for his role in the 5 day overdue lease defaults and opening the door for the repossessions.

Flying full schedule with no cancellations now. Activated 3 planes that were planned for the summer schedule and wet-leasing one. Here for the long term. Good support from 777 and other lessors and insurance companies.

To expect a media response re: why a “big airline that feels threatened” took the “drastic” measure to facilitate repossession.

May have to alter growth this year slightly if the 4 a/c cannot be returned due global demand for MAX’s.

Happy for the Flair employees. Must have been an anxious weekend. Business as usual apparently.

[No Smoke, No Fire]

Lots of gloom being sent from non-flair pilots.

I'm very curious on what the internal consensus is with the entire situation. Has there been any communication from executives to any staff?

To expect a media response re: why a “big airline that feels threatened” took the “drastic” measure to facilitate repossession.

Huh?

[PostmasterGeneral]

Lots of gloom being sent from non-flair pilots.

I'm very curious on what the internal consensus is with the entire situation. Has there been any communication from executives to any staff?

To expect a media response re: why a “big airline that feels threatened” took the “drastic” measure to facilitate repossession.

Huh?

Basically, Flair is saying they were only a few days late on payments (as if that matters, late is late) and presumably WJ had something to do with the repos.

https://globalnews.ca/news/9548294/flai ... ase-rival/

Give me a break.

[cdnavater]

Calling on all pilots but especially ALPA Pilots to contact your reps and petition to get Flair pilots DOH for pay at any ALPA carrier that hires them during this period of uncertainty.
To be clear, for any that decide the risk of staying is too much for them and they move now.
Should Flair rebound, the deal would be rescinded, I feel like if I was in this position I might hang on for dear life and be the one who shuts out the lights but if there was a more palatable option where I could move more latterly, I might consider it.

My absolute #1 vote for the dumbest post ever.

Thanks, that’s what I was going for, actually I realized it would be received this way because pilots are stubbornly stuck in the old way and refuse to change!
Therefore, nothing will ever change.
In the south they are fighting over pilots and here we will watch a couple airlines go under and flood the market with fresh pilots who go the bottom of whichever list instead of to the highest bidder.
Oh well, sorry for my optimism, should’ve been a realist like usual and said nothing!

[rooster]

Calling on all pilots but especially ALPA Pilots to contact your reps and petition to get Flair pilots DOH for pay at any ALPA carrier that hires them during this period of uncertainty.
To be clear, for any that decide the risk of staying is too much for them and they move now.
Should Flair rebound, the deal would be rescinded, I feel like if I was in this position I might hang on for dear life and be the one who shuts out the lights but if there was a more palatable option where I could move more latterly, I might consider it.

My absolute #1 vote for the dumbest post ever.

Thanks, that’s what I was going for, actually I realized it would be received this way because pilots are stubbornly stuck in the old way and refuse to change!
Therefore, nothing will ever change.
In the south they are fighting over pilots and here we will watch a couple airlines go under and flood the market with fresh pilots who go the bottom of whichever list instead of to the highest bidder.
Oh well, sorry for my optimism, should’ve been a realist like usual and said nothing!

Dude, when you're the only one who is defending your own proposal while everyone else finds it ridiculous, who do you think the problem is? Them or you? LOL!!!!!

I have to agree with everyone else that said it, this might be one of the dumbest posts I've read. Know when to fold em there dude. Not your finest post. Take the L and move along.

[Inverted2]

Calling on all pilots but especially ALPA Pilots to contact your reps and petition to get Flair pilots DOH for pay at any ALPA carrier that hires them during this period of uncertainty.
To be clear, for any that decide the risk of staying is too much for them and they move now.
Should Flair rebound, the deal would be rescinded, I feel like if I was in this position I might hang on for dear life and be the one who shuts out the lights but if there was a more palatable option where I could move more latterly, I might consider it.

Were you really high when you wrote that? Be honest!

[cdnavater]

Calling on all pilots but especially ALPA Pilots to contact your reps and petition to get Flair pilots DOH for pay at any ALPA carrier that hires them during this period of uncertainty.
To be clear, for any that decide the risk of staying is too much for them and they move now.
Should Flair rebound, the deal would be rescinded, I feel like if I was in this position I might hang on for dear life and be the one who shuts out the lights but if there was a more palatable option where I could move more latterly, I might consider it.

Were you really high when you wrote that? Be honest!

A little but what a world it would be if we looked out for each other

[Kardow]

My absolute #1 vote for the dumbest post ever.

Thanks, that’s what I was going for, actually I realized it would be received this way because pilots are stubbornly stuck in the old way and refuse to change!
Therefore, nothing will ever change.
In the south they are fighting over pilots and here we will watch a couple airlines go under and flood the market with fresh pilots who go the bottom of whichever list instead of to the highest bidder.
Oh well, sorry for my optimism, should’ve been a realist like usual and said nothing!

Dude, when you're the only one who is defending your own proposal while everyone else finds it ridiculous, who do you think the problem is? Them or you? LOL!!!!!

I have to agree with everyone else that said it, this might be one of the dumbest posts I've read. Know when to fold em there dude. Not your finest post. Take the L and move along.

To be honest, if all pilots/unions would try to achieve that, we would be in a much better industry state than what we have now. He is talking about DOH for pay I believe, not DOH for seniority (which would never ever work for obvious reasons). We are one of the few professions where even with 20+ years of experience, when you start with another company, you get paid the same as the fresh 1500-hour pilot getting his first 705 FO job on a jet. It sucks when you lose your job and you have to start all over again, not only for seniority, but pay wise as well. Would you ever see an engineer that lost his job accepting a junior engineer pay with another company? Or a doctor? Hell no.

Some regionals in the USA are starting to do this, like Envoy Air: "NEW Industry Experience Credit — Pilots with previous Part-121 experience can count their years of service toward compensation rates, vacation days and retirement benefits at Envoy. Those hours are also eligible for Captain Pay as a First Officer."

So, no, this guy is not the problem, the problem is what we think we are worth in this industry. Do what you want, but I will be giving a call to my rep talking about YOS pay carry-in for Flair pilots even though I 100% know it will not happen this time. At least if we start having that discussion, maybe things will change at some point.

[cdnavater]

My absolute #1 vote for the dumbest post ever.

Thanks, that’s what I was going for, actually I realized it would be received this way because pilots are stubbornly stuck in the old way and refuse to change!
Therefore, nothing will ever change.
In the south they are fighting over pilots and here we will watch a couple airlines go under and flood the market with fresh pilots who go the bottom of whichever list instead of to the highest bidder.
Oh well, sorry for my optimism, should’ve been a realist like usual and said nothing!

Dude, when you're the only one who is defending your own proposal while everyone else finds it ridiculous, who do you think the problem is? Them or you? LOL!!!!!

I have to agree with everyone else that said it, this might be one of the dumbest posts I've read. Know when to fold em there dude. Not your finest post. Take the L and move along.

Not doubling down on anything, I believe experienced pilots are worth more than what is showing up to the ground schools, the system is broken and is what ties you to a sinking ship like a seniority anchor.
I don’t like what I see at Jazz right now and will be the one to shut off the lights if it goes down, why, my seniority and pension and pay anchor me here.
20,000 hours and outside of Porter, I’d be looking at a huge pay cut and bottom FO spot somewhere, I’ve actually decided if Jazz goes down, I’m done with this god forsaken industry.
But your selfishness is why this industry is broken, change is needed but seems few will embrace it, I’m not surprised just a little disheartened!

[cdnavater]

Thanks, that’s what I was going for, actually I realized it would be received this way because pilots are stubbornly stuck in the old way and refuse to change!
Therefore, nothing will ever change.
In the south they are fighting over pilots and here we will watch a couple airlines go under and flood the market with fresh pilots who go the bottom of whichever list instead of to the highest bidder.
Oh well, sorry for my optimism, should’ve been a realist like usual and said nothing!

Dude, when you're the only one who is defending your own proposal while everyone else finds it ridiculous, who do you think the problem is? Them or you? LOL!!!!!

I have to agree with everyone else that said it, this might be one of the dumbest posts I've read. Know when to fold em there dude. Not your finest post. Take the L and move along.

To be honest, if all pilots/unions would try to achieve that, we would be in a much better industry state than what we have now. He is talking about DOH for pay I believe, not DOH for seniority (which would never ever work for obvious reasons). We are one of the few professions where even with 20+ years of experience, when you start with another company, you get paid the same as the fresh 1500-hour pilot getting his first 705 FO job on a jet. It sucks when you lose your job and you have to start all over again, not only for seniority, but pay wise as well. Would you ever see an engineer that lost his job accepting a junior engineer pay with another company? Or a doctor? Hell no.

Some regionals in the USA are starting to do this, like Envoy Air: "NEW Industry Experience Credit — Pilots with previous Part-121 experience can count their years of service toward compensation rates, vacation days and retirement benefits at Envoy. Those hours are also eligible for Captain Pay as a First Officer."

So, no, this guy is not the problem, the problem is what we think we are worth in this industry. Do what you want, but I will be giving a call to my rep talking about YOS pay carry-in for Flair pilots even though I 100% know it will not happen this time. At least if we start having that discussion, maybe things will change at some point.

Hopefully, the vocal minority is here and some traction can be gained outside of this board!
Cheers

[schnitzel2k3]

Lots of gloom being sent from non-flair pilots.

I'm very curious on what the internal consensus is with the entire situation. Has there been any communication from executives to any staff?

Heard that CEO addressed most employees and apologized for his role in the 5 day overdue lease defaults and opening the door for the repossessions.

Flying full schedule with no cancellations now. Activated 3 planes that were planned for the summer schedule and wet-leasing one. Here for the long term. Good support from 777 and other lessors and insurance companies.

To expect a media response re: why a “big airline that feels threatened” took the “drastic” measure to facilitate repossession.

May have to alter growth this year slightly if the 4 a/c cannot be returned due global demand for MAX’s.

Happy for the Flair employees. Must have been an anxious weekend. Business as usual apparently.

That's excellent!

[thepoors]

Good support from 777 and other lessors and insurance companies.

As in 777 is paying the lessors?.. illegally?.....

Don't think it will be "business as usual" when the CTA gets wind of this unfortunately. Jones keeps digging himself a deeper hole.

[Arnie Pye]

Calling on all pilots but especially ALPA Pilots to contact your reps and petition to get Flair pilots DOH for pay at any ALPA carrier that hires them during this period of uncertainty.
To be clear, for any that decide the risk of staying is too much for them and they move now.
Should Flair rebound, the deal would be rescinded, I feel like if I was in this position I might hang on for dear life and be the one who shuts out the lights but if there was a more palatable option where I could move more latterly, I might consider it.

My absolute #1 vote for the dumbest post ever.

You haven't been reading JerryRig's anti-vaxx posts.

[mantogasrsrwy]

Calling on all pilots but especially ALPA Pilots to contact your reps and petition to get Flair pilots DOH for pay at any ALPA carrier that hires them during this period of uncertainty.
To be clear, for any that decide the risk of staying is too much for them and they move now.
Should Flair rebound, the deal would be rescinded, I feel like if I was in this position I might hang on for dear life and be the one who shuts out the lights but if there was a more palatable option where I could move more latterly, I might consider it.

My absolute #1 vote for the dumbest post ever.

You haven't been reading JerryRig's anti-vaxx posts.

That's awesome.

[cdnavater]

My absolute #1 vote for the dumbest post ever.

You haven't been reading JerryRig's anti-vaxx posts.

That's awesome.

Nope, supporting other pilots is far more dumb than paranoia and conspiracy!

[averageatbest]

Nope, supporting other pilots is far more dumb than paranoia and conspiracy!

I don't know why you are arguing against your own argument.

I think that ALPA should be negotiating some sort of seniority transfer from airline to airline. At a glance it sounds like it would screw over those who are giving up bargaining capital for it, but in the end it's better for the industry.

Our current system locks pilots into their current carriers. Unlike other industries where you can get a better offer elsewhere and move up (much like our CEOs do), pilots are forced back into unlivable wages if they move.

When pilots are locked in, wages can be suppressed because there is still enough of a pool of less qualified pilots willing to be recruited. When seniority can be transferred, the game goes from "recruit and captured" to "recruit and retain."

[link821]

Nope, supporting other pilots is far more dumb than paranoia and conspiracy!

I don't know why you are arguing against your own argument.

I think that ALPA should be negotiating some sort of seniority transfer from airline to airline. At a glance it sounds like it would screw over those who are giving up bargaining capital for it, but in the end it's better for the industry.

Our current system locks pilots into their current carriers. Unlike other industries where you can get a better offer elsewhere and move up (much like our CEOs do), pilots are forced back into unlivable wages if they move.

When pilots are locked in, wages can be suppressed because there is still enough of a pool of less qualified pilots willing to be recruited. When seniority can be transferred, the game goes from "recruit and captured" to "recruit and retain."

Nailed it!

[Vanguard]

Clearly some of you are so new to this industry that there is lack of understanding. Before you come up with these silly ideas take some time to read the ALPA Manual and what it states on Seniority.

What you’re asking for is called meritocracy. If we did have they then yes rather than seniority, experience would dictate wages but know that is also not a great system at time especially when your dads is the 777 CA at AC in management and the other guys parent is a high-school teacher or Doctor or they just work at Tim Hortons.

[Hangry]

They’ll grow up one day.

[MaxAuto]

If I spent years establishing senority to better my QOL at an airline, I don't want my union or company bringing someone with more equivalent hours (whether slightly or significantly more) taking a spot above me. Senority existing for a reason in the pilot airline ranks. It's a system that works. Not perfect, but works.

Go work at Buffalo Airways if you want that system.

[link821]

I don’t think they were suggesting someone gets to bring their date of of hire along with them to any airline they wish to join, but rather one would be financially compensated for their experience level while still sliding in at the bottom of the list.

[cdnavater]

Nope, supporting other pilots is far more dumb than paranoia and conspiracy!

I don't know why you are arguing against your own argument.

I think that ALPA should be negotiating some sort of seniority transfer from airline to airline. At a glance it sounds like it would screw over those who are giving up bargaining capital for it, but in the end it's better for the industry.

Our current system locks pilots into their current carriers. Unlike other industries where you can get a better offer elsewhere and move up (much like our CEOs do), pilots are forced back into unlivable wages if they move.

When pilots are locked in, wages can be suppressed because there is still enough of a pool of less qualified pilots willing to be recruited. When seniority can be transferred, the game goes from "recruit and captured" to "recruit and retain."

Sorry, I don’t use emojis very often, it was sarcasm.

[cdnavater]

I don’t think they were suggesting someone gets to bring their date of of hire along with them to any airline they wish to join, but rather one would be financially compensated for their experience level while still sliding in at the bottom of the list.

Yes, I very clearly said for pay, but as soon as you refer to DOH, people get their panties in a bunch and become stupid.

[CFM Symphony]

I don’t think they were suggesting someone gets to bring their date of of hire along with them to any airline they wish to join, but rather one would be financially compensated for their experience level while still sliding in at the bottom of the list.

Yes, I very clearly said for pay, but as soon as you refer to DOH, people get their panties in a bunch and become stupid.

Do you think airlines care whether you have 5,000 or 25,000hrs? The result of your idea would be that as you gain experience you become less and less desirable for employment, because you’d become more and more expensive - the opposite of the outcome you’re hoping for.

[hithere]

In the US new hires are skipping pay steps and getting higher starting salaries/higher signing bonuses/direct entry Captain based on previous experience. Of course they still go to the bottom of the list so while they might get DEC their schedule is crap for quite some time as internal FOs get upgraded and parachute in ahead of them. But the system of recognition for previous experience does exist. Whether it will make its way north of the border is anyone's guess. The irony is that if Flair was to go under, it would temporarily flood the market with pilots and therefore negate the need for such a system