Grooming

[DanWEC]

You can't justify or normalize this.This attitude is why we're where we are in Canada. Helping out once in a blue moon because of some irops or a unique destination is one thing, but including it in your employment expectations in a 705 is utterly bonkers, and does no favours to every single pilot here who's trying to crawl out of the hole we dug for the last 20 years.

[CaptDukeNukem]

And that changed for WJ when ALPA came…maybe it’s time for porter too

Maybe…. Time will tell. But people bashing a new player in the game because the pilots helped groom in the early days is ridiculous. Things take time, we’re 6 months in a new operation. It Took WJ years to iron that out.

Porter has been flying for how long? 17 years? Not exactly "the early days". I'm sure there will always be a great reason (excuse) for the airline cutting costs by having pilots be part time cleaning ladies. Please everyone stop justifying how pilots are treated in Canada, no wonder were some of the worst treated/paid pilots in the developed world.

Dude I don’t know where you got your roots flying. Airlines were very different 16 years ago. You were lucky to fly a Navajo 17 years ago with 6000 hours TT. So crossing a seat belt back then was easily something pilots would do. It’s great that we live in a Sellers’s market now. Unfortunately, some of this crap is still left from the past. That’s all I’m saying,

[albertdesalvo]

Just like I'm their pilot. Is this usage not familiar to you?

[Old fella]

You can't justify or normalize this.This attitude is why we're where we are in Canada. Helping out once in a blue moon because of some irops or a unique destination is one thing, but including it in your employment expectations in a 705 is utterly bonkers, and does no favours to every single pilot here who's trying to crawl out of the hole we dug for the last 20 years.

You’re Airline Pilots for Christ sake, your responsibility it to keep the fare paying public like myself safe during normal/abnormal operations- nothing more, nothing less. Why in the name of Christ should you clean up airplanes as part of your duties, it’s demeaning and unworthy of any airline to unload such on their pilots. I personally would refuse to do it as a Captain or FO, screw that. Hopefully that antiquated “ culture” is dropped post haste.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Unpopular opinion: There is nothing wrong with expecting the flight and cabin crew to groom aircraft at outstations.

Where my opinion matches the popular opinion is that unpaid work is unacceptable no matter how you look at it.

[cjp]

Unpopular opinion: There is nothing wrong with expecting the flight and cabin crew to groom aircraft at outstations.

Where my opinion matches the popular opinion is that unpaid work is unacceptable no matter how you look at it.

Shirley you can't think like that /S.

Agreed.

[cdnavater]

Unpopular opinion: There is nothing wrong with expecting the flight and cabin crew to groom aircraft at outstations.

Where my opinion matches the popular opinion is that unpaid work is unacceptable no matter how you look at it.

First define outstation, anywhere that’s not a base is technically an outstation.
If grooming services are available, the only excuse is money and that’s not good enough not to mention your second point they are not paid for brakes on to brakes off so no one is being paid for that work.
Would you service the lav, why not check the oil and tire pressures?

[cjp]

Unpopular opinion: There is nothing wrong with expecting the flight and cabin crew to groom aircraft at outstations.

Where my opinion matches the popular opinion is that unpaid work is unacceptable no matter how you look at it.

First define outstation, anywhere that’s not a base is technically an outstation.
If grooming services are available, the only excuse is money and that’s not good enough not to mention your second point they are not paid for brakes on to brakes off so no one is being paid for that work.
Would you service the lav, why not check the oil and tire pressures?

Funny, grooming services are available at most (not all) outstations, but not Toronto.

I think everyone is between a rock and a hard place. We want passengers to have a clean environment but some are also quietly refusing the grooming or doing a half assed job. Any delays are put on grooming when it's not blatantly something else.

'Oh look, programing the MCDU and walkaround took nearly 50 minutes, and required both pilots - oh dear'.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Unpopular opinion: There is nothing wrong with expecting the flight and cabin crew to groom aircraft at outstations.

Where my opinion matches the popular opinion is that unpaid work is unacceptable no matter how you look at it.

First define outstation, anywhere that’s not a base is technically an outstation.
If grooming services are available, the only excuse is money and that’s not good enough not to mention your second point they are not paid for brakes on to brakes off so no one is being paid for that work.
Would you service the lav, why not check the oil and tire pressures?

Funny, grooming services are available at most (not all) outstations, but not Toronto.

I think everyone is between a rock and a hard place. We want passengers to have a clean environment but some are also quietly refusing the grooming or doing a half assed job. Any delays are put on grooming when it's not blatantly something else.

'Oh look, programing the MCDU and walkaround took nearly 50 minutes, and required both pilots - oh dear'.

I think cdnavater meant that : “if services are available…”

Like if you are able to purchase this service, which it is, everywhere. Toronto for sure has this service available. Then it’s a money saving scheme
I agree, if you need to complete your duties on a turn and it requires both pilots, such as showing a trainee or rookie the walk around that takes a little longer than expected. So be it.

I hear the embraer is a bish to program correctly. Better check it three times instead of twice.

[mmm...bacon]

Perhaps I’m naive, or old fashioned, or just don’t ‘get it’ but what’s the problem with helping to keep your aircraft tidy? I can see not dumping the lavs, or chucking bags, but folding belts, or picking up the odd piece of trash? If you’re all on the same ‘team’, then why not pitch in together? Do you turn over the flight deck to the next group of guys leaving sh!t everywhere, too?

[dontcallmeshirley]

Perhaps I’m naive, or old fashioned, or just don’t ‘get it’ but what’s the problem with helping to keep your aircraft tidy? I can see not dumping the lavs, or chucking bags, but folding belts, or picking up the odd piece of trash? If you’re all on the same ‘team’, then why not pitch in together? Do you turn over the flight deck to the next group of guys leaving sh!t everywhere, too?

Once the pay stops, we should be free to leave.

[cdnavater]

Perhaps I’m naive, or old fashioned, or just don’t ‘get it’ but what’s the problem with helping to keep your aircraft tidy? I can see not dumping the lavs, or chucking bags, but folding belts, or picking up the odd piece of trash? If you’re all on the same ‘team’, then why not pitch in together? Do you turn over the flight deck to the next group of guys leaving sh!t everywhere, too?

The flight deck is my work space or office if you will and most certainly do not leave a mess for the next crew, the back end is not an office space, it generates revenue and the company is too cheap to spend the money it takes to keep it appealing for the revenue stream(passengers)
They are not paid for the t8me on the ground either so yes, there is something wrong with it!

[pitottubey]

On one of my last pairings the captain cleared a clog in the toilet with a plastic gloves while passengers boarded. Later that pairing I had to remove a piss filled water bottle from a seat back pocket. All these pilots justifying this shit needs to step aside for this next generation trying to bring the career of an airline pilot back to what it should be. Step aside if you justify wages, step aside if you justify working conditions. Professionals don't clean. Engineers don't clean, Lawyers don't clean, doctors don't clean, business men don't clean. Pathetic these people don't hold themselves in esteem as professionals.

[cjp]

First define outstation, anywhere that’s not a base is technically an outstation.
If grooming services are available, the only excuse is money and that’s not good enough not to mention your second point they are not paid for brakes on to brakes off so no one is being paid for that work.
Would you service the lav, why not check the oil and tire pressures?

Funny, grooming services are available at most (not all) outstations, but not Toronto.

I think everyone is between a rock and a hard place. We want passengers to have a clean environment but some are also quietly refusing the grooming or doing a half assed job. Any delays are put on grooming when it's not blatantly something else.

'Oh look, programing the MCDU and walkaround took nearly 50 minutes, and required both pilots - oh dear'.

I think cdnavater meant that : “if services are available…”

Like if you are able to purchase this service, which it is, everywhere. Toronto for sure has this service available. Then it’s a money saving scheme
I agree, if you need to complete your duties on a turn and it requires both pilots, such as showing a trainee or rookie the walk around that takes a little longer than expected. So be it.

I hear the embraer is a bish to program correctly. Better check it three times instead of twice.

I feel like we've flown together I strictly meant for our team. Find it funny the airport we connect through the most that has the shortest turns has no grooming, but our out stations do.

[Tbayer2021]

What a sad state of affairs it is when we have multiple individuals arguing in favor of pilots grooming. And we think we deserve as much as our American counterparts. Pathetic!

[ant_321]

I’m ok with grooming. I just want 1.5x my hourly rate like I get when I inconvenienced by having to deadhead in the flight deck. I wouldn’t mind an extra few hundred bucks a day to fold some seatbelts and pick up snotty tissues.

[cjp]

What a sad state of affairs it is when we have multiple individuals arguing in favor of pilots grooming. And we think we deserve as much as our American counterparts. Pathetic!

No one is in favour, stop twisting.

[braaap Braap]

Wherever you're at on the "we should/shouldn't groom" scale; you're here. It's currently part of the job. Hopefully you weren't ignorant enough to come here without knowing what to expect. If your ego is so fragile that you can't participate and are hiding in the flight deck while other crew members shoulder the burden, then that's pretty shitty behaviour/CRM IMO.

With the rumblings of am ALPA union drive, if you feel the FOAG is failing to properly represent you; get involved!

[cjp]

Wherever you're at on the "we should/shouldn't groom" scale; you're here. It's currently part of the job. Hopefully you weren't ignorant enough to come here without knowing what to expect. If your ego is so fragile that you can't participate and are hiding in the flight deck while other crew members shoulder the burden, then that's pretty shitty behaviour/CRM IMO.

With the rumblings of am ALPA union drive, if you feel the FOAG is failing to properly represent you; get involved!

I'm happy voicing my very few concerns to the FOAG as they come up, thank you. I'm on the 'we shouldn't' end of the scale but I knew what Porter OGs allowed on the 70ish seat Dash. I figured with a completely new aircraft type, on a separate operating certificate, hiring likely 100s of experienced expats, we would have figured a way to have complete services available at each of our 6+ stations currently served by the jet - particularly when turns are <50 minutes, and staging happens 20 minutes after landing.

I take it you are on the 'we should groom' end of things?

[Canadaflyer46]

What an incredibly depressing thread. I’m speechless that there are still professional pilots in Canada who are condoning picking up garbage for free. Truly an embarrassment to our industry.
I can only assume they’re doing it for some big profit share checks like WJ pilots used to years ago and don’t want the cleaning contracted out as it’ll hit their wallet. Still shameful, just pick up a day of overtime instead of cleaning and keep your self respect .

[braaap Braap]

Wherever you're at on the "we should/shouldn't groom" scale; you're here. It's currently part of the job. Hopefully you weren't ignorant enough to come here without knowing what to expect. If your ego is so fragile that you can't participate and are hiding in the flight deck while other crew members shoulder the burden, then that's pretty shitty behaviour/CRM IMO.

With the rumblings of am ALPA union drive, if you feel the FOAG is failing to properly represent you; get involved!

I'm happy voicing my very few concerns to the FOAG as they come up, thank you. I'm on the 'we shouldn't' end of the scale but I knew what Porter OGs allowed on the 70ish seat Dash. I figured with a completely new aircraft type, on a separate operating certificate, hiring likely 100s of experienced expats, we would have figured a way to have complete services available at each of our 6+ stations currently served by the jet - particularly when turns are <50 minutes, and staging happens 20 minutes after landing.

I take it you are on the 'we should groom' end of things?

No I am on the "We shouldn't groom" side of things too. I would prefer not to have to do more unpaid work between turns. That being said, I know what I signed up for and will continue to do it as long as it falls under the duties I signed up for when I accepted the job (while pushing for change).

What an incredibly depressing thread. I’m speechless that there are still professional pilots in Canada who are condoning picking up garbage for free. Truly an embarrassment to our industry.
I can only assume they’re doing it for some big profit share checks like WJ pilots used to years ago and don’t want the cleaning contracted out as it’ll hit their wallet. Still shameful, just pick up a day of overtime instead of cleaning and keep your self respect .

If only! We don't get profit sharing anymore. It was replaced by "performance pays" which is hilarious when our operation is run in such a way that nothing is achievable and we require continual "discretionary 1%" pity bonuses.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Wherever you're at on the "we should/shouldn't groom" scale; you're here. It's currently part of the job. Hopefully you weren't ignorant enough to come here without knowing what to expect. If your ego is so fragile that you can't participate and are hiding in the flight deck while other crew members shoulder the burden, then that's pretty shitty behaviour/CRM IMO.

With the rumblings of am ALPA union drive, if you feel the FOAG is failing to properly represent you; get involved!

I'm happy voicing my very few concerns to the FOAG as they come up, thank you. I'm on the 'we shouldn't' end of the scale but I knew what Porter OGs allowed on the 70ish seat Dash. I figured with a completely new aircraft type, on a separate operating certificate, hiring likely 100s of experienced expats, we would have figured a way to have complete services available at each of our 6+ stations currently served by the jet - particularly when turns are <50 minutes, and staging happens 20 minutes after landing.

I take it you are on the 'we should groom' end of things?

No I am on the "We shouldn't groom" side of things too. I would prefer not to have to do more unpaid work between turns. That being said, I know what I signed up for and will continue to do it as long as it falls under the duties I signed up for when I accepted the job (while pushing for change).

What an incredibly depressing thread. I’m speechless that there are still professional pilots in Canada who are condoning picking up garbage for free. Truly an embarrassment to our industry.
I can only assume they’re doing it for some big profit share checks like WJ pilots used to years ago and don’t want the cleaning contracted out as it’ll hit their wallet. Still shameful, just pick up a day of overtime instead of cleaning and keep your self respect .

If only! We don't get profit sharing anymore. It was replaced by "performance pays" which is hilarious when our operation is run in such a way that nothing is achievable and we require continual "discretionary 1%" pity bonuses.

I think everyone here is pushing for that to change. No one is actually in favour of picking up garbage for free. Everyone does it because it’s part of the job at the moment.

Bottom line is, it’ll go away. Hopefully sooner than later, just like it did a WestJet.

[dontcallmeshirley]

I think everyone here is pushing for that to change. No one is actually in favour of picking up garbage for free. Everyone does it because it’s part of the job at the moment.

Bottom line is, it’ll go away. Hopefully sooner than later, just like it did a WestJet.

... still a thing at Encore and still a requirement for all employees using standby travel...

[braaap Braap]

I think everyone here is pushing for that to change. No one is actually in favour of picking up garbage for free. Everyone does it because it’s part of the job at the moment.

Bottom line is, it’ll go away. Hopefully sooner than later, just like it did a WestJet.

I agree, if you need to complete your duties on a turn and it requires both pilots, such as showing a trainee or rookie the walk around that takes a little longer than expected. So be it.

I hear the embraer is a bish to program correctly. Better check it three times instead of twice.

Right I'm sure everyone is on the same page. My point is just don't try and find illegitimate ways to get out of it because that's shitty behaviour towards the rest of your crew.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I think everyone here is pushing for that to change. No one is actually in favour of picking up garbage for free. Everyone does it because it’s part of the job at the moment.

Bottom line is, it’ll go away. Hopefully sooner than later, just like it did a WestJet.

I agree, if you need to complete your duties on a turn and it requires both pilots, such as showing a trainee or rookie the walk around that takes a little longer than expected. So be it.

I hear the embraer is a bish to program correctly. Better check it three times instead of twice.

Right I'm sure everyone is on the same page. My point is just don't try and find illegitimate ways to get out of it because that's shitty behaviour towards the rest of your crew.

How was I trying to find ways to get out of it? If it sounded like that, then I’m sorry.

I said training occurs, and sometimes you gotta do the walk around together and also check the computer an extra time. This takes up time and you know damn well some of our turn times are impossible. It’s time management. I’ll put on gloves if time allows me, until such time where it’s not part of our job anymore.