Flair pilot program

[Victory]

Cut the man some slack. He’s been honest and information providing on avcanada. You’re taking his words and making something out of nothing. You know what he meant. So just stop.

I've never seen a single person do more damage to a profession. Paying for ratings at Jetsgo, scabbing at Swoop, helped normalize pilots living in their car, led ULCC with foreign fraudster owners, recruiting pilots in Africa, and now it's a cadet program putting 250 hour wonders in airliners instead of just paying qualified pilots what they're worth.

[Ash Ketchum]

$145 K? I don't know anyone who would sign up for this. I just tell kids these days to do a coding boot camp for far less and they can get a job making double what Flair pays their FOs. I think the solution is to do what Porter and US airlines are doing and start offering more money to attract experienced and qualified pilots.

[Canadaflyer46]

Cut the man some slack. He’s been honest and information providing on avcanada. You’re taking his words and making something out of nothing. You know what he meant. So just stop.

I've never seen a single person do more damage to a profession. Paying for ratings at Jetsgo, scabbing at Swoop, helped normalize pilots living in their car, led ULCC with foreign fraudster owners, recruiting pilots in Africa, and now it's a cadet program putting 250 hour wonders in airliners instead of just paying qualified pilots what they're worth.

Spot on.

[Tbayer2021]

It's risky because the company could go out of business before you receive your license.

Why would an airline going out of business have any effect on your training or receiving your license?

I think the point being that these cadets would pay Flair and not the flight school directly. Said cadet pays flair 145k or however much under an installment plan and then the airline goes bankrupt and the student loses that money. Sure the training is still valid and they can certainly continue on their own, but they'd be out tens of thousands potentially. Assuming they pay Flair, of course. Can you provide any clarity on that?

[Dronepiper]

What I don’t understand is this: why does this program cost $145k?!?!

I could maybe understand if this cost included the 737 type rating, BUT IT DOESN’T!! The Genesis website specifically says that the 737 type rating is not included in this cost (because Flair pays for it once you become an employee after graduation).

This means you are paying a whopping $145,000 for a PPL, CPL, and Multi IFR.

For reference, you can get your PPL, CPL, and Multi IFR for around $65,000 at Harv’s Air.

So yes, if FLAIR goes bankrupt before you get typed on the 737, you essentially overpaid for your flight training by around $80,000!!!!

HOLY $&@$

[Dronepiper]

Also don’t give me any BS about an IATPL being more valuable than a CPL + MultiIFR + IATRA. There is literally NO DIFFERENCE.

Writing your ATPL exams earlier means absolutely nothing if you still need 1500 hours before you actually acquire your ATPL.

IATPL programs in Canada exist for the soul purpose of scamming money out of naïve kids and their stupid rich parents.

KIDS REMEMBER THIS:

THE IATRA EXAM ALLOWS YOU TO DO THE EXACT SAME THING AS HAVING THE SARON AND SAMRA WRITTEN.

You can study and write the IATRA at 250 hours for a couple hundred bucks.

[tbaylx]

It's risky because the company could go out of business before you receive your license.

Why would an airline going out of business have any effect on your training or receiving your license?

I think the point being that these cadets would pay Flair and not the flight school directly. Said cadet pays flair 145k or however much under an installment plan and then the airline goes bankrupt and the student loses that money. Sure the training is still valid and they can certainly continue on their own, but they'd be out tens of thousands potentially. Assuming they pay Flair, of course. Can you provide any clarity on that?

Flair isn't involved in the transaction. Students pay the school directly. Flair only becomes the employer after the student graduates.

[tbaylx]

What I don’t understand is this: why does this program cost $145k?!?!

I could maybe understand if this cost included the 737 type rating, BUT IT DOESN’T!! The Genesis website specifically says that the 737 type rating is not included in this cost (because Flair pays for it once you become an employee after graduation).

This means you are paying a whopping $145,000 for a PPL, CPL, and Multi IFR.

For reference, you can get your PPL, CPL, and Multi IFR for around $65,000 at Harv’s Air.

So yes, if FLAIR goes bankrupt before you get typed on the 737, you essentially overpaid for your flight training by around $80,000!!!!

HOLY $&@$

The differences are significant. It's a cadet program, not a CPL modular license program. If a candidate doesn't think the additional cost is worth it then they are free to not apply.

The competitive screening process to entry, competition for limited available spots.
iATPL on graduation vs CPL
Significant emphasis on decision making, CRM, leadership, Airline SOP, 2 crew integration
Training conducted on modern glass cockpit aircraft
A significant portion of the multi-training conducted in Flair's B737 Level 5+ FTD
Guaranteed job at Flair as a B737 FO upon graduation

[twa22]

Why would an airline going out of business have any effect on your training or receiving your license?

I think the point being that these cadets would pay Flair and not the flight school directly. Said cadet pays flair 145k or however much under an installment plan and then the airline goes bankrupt and the student loses that money. Sure the training is still valid and they can certainly continue on their own, but they'd be out tens of thousands potentially. Assuming they pay Flair, of course. Can you provide any clarity on that?

Flair isn't involved in the transaction. Students pay the school directly. Flair only becomes the employer after the student graduates.

So why does one have to go to Genesis flight school and pay 145k for the iatpl, instead of Waterloo flight centre, or Moncton, or any other iatpl for that matter, which is half the price? What makes Genesis so special that one should pay double?

Sorry, math doesn't add up here, but unfortunately, people will still be signing up in droves probably...

[tbaylx]

I think the point being that these cadets would pay Flair and not the flight school directly. Said cadet pays flair 145k or however much under an installment plan and then the airline goes bankrupt and the student loses that money. Sure the training is still valid and they can certainly continue on their own, but they'd be out tens of thousands potentially. Assuming they pay Flair, of course. Can you provide any clarity on that?

Flair isn't involved in the transaction. Students pay the school directly. Flair only becomes the employer after the student graduates.

So why does one have to go to Genesis flight school and pay 145k for the iatpl, instead of Waterloo flight centre, or Moncton, or any other iatpl for that matter, which is half the price? What makes Genesis so special that one should pay double?

Sorry, math doesn't add up here, but unfortunately, people will still be signing up in droves probably...

Simple, because we've developed the program with Genesis (who was selected due to a variety of factors, including modern, glass cockpit trainers, willingness to partner and incorporate airline level training from day 1 including dress codes, performance standards, intake screening etc). Candidates must apply, be screened, and be selected for a limited number of spots. Students must maintain certain levels of performance during the course. We've also QA'd the instructors, partnered with them to provide use of our FTD, and integrated our decision-making models, CRM concepts and SOP.

We haven't done that with any other flight schools and there are no entry standards at any of those schools other than money and instructor availability.

This is new to Canada in that it's a fully integrated cadet program, not a CPL licence from any school with a job at the end. The airline is involved from the very beginning.

[SPR]

This is new to Canada in that it's a fully integrated cadet program, not a CPL licence from any school with a job at the end. The airline is involved from the very beginning.

This isn't a new concept in Canada: https://www.cae.com/civil-aviation/beco ... z-approach It drives me nuts that Flair employees are always touting it as being groundbreaking, leading-edge, or ahead of the pack in everything it does, when that stuff is demonstrably false, just like being #2 in YUL.

The Flair program will also cost almost $20000 more than the Jazz Approach program, so the risk with this plan comes from a 50% mark-up over just going to a regular flight school and getting a CPL. Regardless of whether one questions the long-term viability of Flair, spending that much more money just to get a CPL and be employable with a specific operator is a detriment to one's finances, and should anything go wrong such as failing a flight test or losing one's medical, then the students will be objectively worse-off than if they had gone the traditional route. Even if everything goes fine, if they decide that they don't want to keep working for Flair and go to AC or WS, then they'll be worse-off than their peers. Hell, this costs more than the college programs that are also part of the Jazz program, and those at least give a post-secondary credential for the extra cost.

[tbaylx]

This is new to Canada in that it's a fully integrated cadet program, not a CPL licence from any school with a job at the end. The airline is involved from the very beginning.

This isn't a new concept in Canada: https://www.cae.com/civil-aviation/beco ... z-approach It drives me nuts that Flair employees are always touting it as being groundbreaking, leading-edge, or ahead of the pack in everything it does, when that stuff is demonstrably false, just like being #2 in YUL.

The Flair program will also cost almost $20000 more than the Jazz Approach program, so the risk with this plan comes from a 50% mark-up over just going to a regular flight school and getting a CPL. Regardless of whether one questions the long-term viability of Flair, spending that much more money just to get a CPL and be employable with a specific operator is a detriment to one's finances, and should anything go wrong such as failing a flight test or losing one's medical, then the students will be objectively worse-off than if they had gone the traditional route. Even if everything goes fine, if they decide that they don't want to keep working for Flair and go to AC or WS, then they'll be worse-off than their peers. Hell, this costs more than the college programs that are also part of the Jazz program, and those at least give a post-secondary credential for the extra cost.

There are significant differences from the Jazz program. We're proud of the work we're doing with this program, and it will be an important part of the airline's recruiting efforts in the future, as well as bringing more pilots into an industry that is short of qualified and experienced labour.

[Dronepiper]

[quote=Dronepiper post_id=<a href="tel:1272710">1272710</a> time=<a href="tel:1692553391">1692553391</a> user_id=71274]

Guaranteed job at Flair as a B737 FO upon graduation

So basically it’s an 80k gamble on Flair surviving. If they go bankrupt, then that extra 80k was wasted because, in reality, you will not be any more employable then a Harv’s Air CPL pilot who spent 80k less than you to get to the same point.

[Tbayer2021]

This is new to Canada in that it's a fully integrated cadet program, not a CPL licence from any school with a job at the end. The airline is involved from the very beginning.

This isn't a new concept in Canada: https://www.cae.com/civil-aviation/beco ... z-approach It drives me nuts that Flair employees are always touting it as being groundbreaking, leading-edge, or ahead of the pack in everything it does, when that stuff is demonstrably false, just like being #2 in YUL.

Is it really that surprising when co-joe literally forgot how to count with that #2 in YUL comment. I have to commend Flair management on their cool-aid.

[angrypenguin]

[quote=Dronepiper post_id=<a href="tel:1272710">1272710</a> time=<a href="tel:1692553391">1692553391</a> user_id=71274]

Guaranteed job at Flair as a B737 FO upon graduation

So basically it’s an 80k gamble on Flair surviving. If they go bankrupt, then that extra 80k was wasted because, in reality, you will not be any more employable then a Harv’s Air CPL pilot who spent 80k less than you to get to the same point.

Is there any context on financial recourses when other airlines have failed and left their pilot-students holding the bag?

[twa22]

Flair isn't involved in the transaction. Students pay the school directly. Flair only becomes the employer after the student graduates.

So why does one have to go to Genesis flight school and pay 145k for the iatpl, instead of Waterloo flight centre, or Moncton, or any other iatpl for that matter, which is half the price? What makes Genesis so special that one should pay double?

Sorry, math doesn't add up here, but unfortunately, people will still be signing up in droves probably...

Simple, because we've developed the program with Genesis (who was selected due to a variety of factors, including modern, glass cockpit trainers, willingness to partner and incorporate airline level training from day 1 including dress codes, performance standards, intake screening etc). Candidates must apply, be screened, and be selected for a limited number of spots. Students must maintain certain levels of performance during the course. We've also QA'd the instructors, partnered with them to provide use of our FTD, and integrated our decision-making models, CRM concepts and SOP.

We haven't done that with any other flight schools and there are no entry standards at any of those schools other than money and instructor availability.

This is new to Canada in that it's a fully integrated cadet program, not a CPL licence from any school with a job at the end. The airline is involved from the very beginning.

Sorry tbay, you're not going to convince anyone here of anything with that statement, and you know that. Of the many iatpl schools, I'll give Waterloo as an example, where a select amount of students can get hired directly onto a 737 at sunwing, and this has been going on for years, so I don't see how flair is any different except for the price. Waterloo is also not the only school that sunwing selects candidates from as far as I'm aware

I've said this before, I like the concept of Flair and do want it to succeed, but man there are a lot of red flags lately

[Jean-Pierre]

What bank wouldn't give $145,000 loan if you are guaranteed a job at Flair

[Oleo 4]

While I believe the cadet program will be the movement required to break a barrier to entry in Canadian aviation. 145K is absolutely absurd given we have flight attendants at WestJet completing CPl w/ group 1 multi IFR ratings in Alberta for sub 70k in diamond aircraft at schools independent of our company. An airline who puts 250 hour pilots in the seat I would hope had a greater input on candidate selection and monitoring than described above.

Cadets (Pilots) should not be paying for type ratings in Canada!

O

[330heavy]

Realistically, only the wealthy entitled kids will enter the program. With the cost of everything going up, the number and quality of canidates to pay that much will go down.

[Blueontop]

What I don’t understand is this: why does this program cost $145k?!?!

I could maybe understand if this cost included the 737 type rating, BUT IT DOESN’T!! The Genesis website specifically says that the 737 type rating is not included in this cost (because Flair pays for it once you become an employee after graduation).

This means you are paying a whopping $145,000 for a PPL, CPL, and Multi IFR.

For reference, you can get your PPL, CPL, and Multi IFR for around $65,000 at Harv’s Air.

So yes, if FLAIR goes bankrupt before you get typed on the 737, you essentially overpaid for your flight training by around $80,000!!!!

HOLY $&@$

The differences are significant. It's a cadet program, not a CPL modular license program. If a candidate doesn't think the additional cost is worth it then they are free to not apply.

The competitive screening process to entry, competition for limited available spots.
iATPL on graduation vs CPL
Significant emphasis on decision making, CRM, leadership, Airline SOP, 2 crew integration
Training conducted on modern glass cockpit aircraft
A significant portion of the multi-training conducted in Flair's B737 Level 5+ FTD
Guaranteed job at Flair as a B737 FO upon graduation

And what is the plan/support for all these FOs come upgrade time when they need an ATPL signed off? Having a never ending supply of FOs is useless unless they can move right to left. Please, please don’t tell me it’s all gonna be PICUS…

[Oleo 4]

The candidates should be paying as they go if we as an industry have learned anything about JetsGo.

O

[30 West]

https://www.tcu.gov.on.ca/pepg/audience ... cid=164237

2020 Private Career College graduation and job rates
Genesis Flight College, Stayner

Approved Vocational Program Graduation Rate
(%) Graduate Employment Rate
(%) Graduate Employment Rate in the Field of Study
(%) Graduate Satisfaction Rate
(%) Employer Satisfaction Rate
(%) OSAP Default Rate
(%)
Overall, Private Career Colleges Sector 71.9% 72.7% 48.8% 78.0% 88.3% 7.4%
Overall, Genesis Flight College, Stayner 21.1% 80.0% 40.0% 80.0% ND ND
Commercial Pilot 21.4% SS SS SS ND ND
Instructor Rating 20.0% SS SS SS ND ND


Notes:

SS = sample size of fewer than five (5) individuals

ND = no applicable entrants or no survey respondents

The Overall Survey Population scores exclude the closed PCCs

Default rates are only calculated at the Overall Survey Population and Campus level.

Overall Survey Population Default Rates include all institutions, including the closed PCCs.

[CanadaAir]

Yeah. I share that sentiment. The EU has similar programs and have been successful (so far) in preventing a catastrophe. The thing is, that the theory exams and the interview process to get a right seat A320 job at 200 hrs is insane. If anyone here cares, look up the recruitment process at WizzAir. They're pretty thorough on who they hire...

However... experience is... experience...

Absolutely. People who say ‘well that’s how they do it in Europe’ usually have no idea of how they do, in fact, do it in Europe.

Our training department is quite familiar with how it's done in Europe and the M.E. The Flair program has virtually nothing in common with Sunwing's cadet program, some similarities with Jazz's new program but most closely matches WizzAir's and other European cadet programs.

Cadets will not be paying for their type rating and get the same pay as any other first officer. The program will help get new piltos into the industry and gives them a great pathway from zero hours to an airline environment.

A well-trained, carefully selected 250-hour cadet will be a far better fit than a 1500-hour average pilot who hasn't undergone the training or screening the cadets do. There's a reason that the European cadet models work as well as they do. The selection process is intense.

One thing learned from cadet type pilot hiring such as at Jazz partner institutions, hours are not the only indicator of competency & contributions to the company.

Many other factors.

Mature & motivated hires with accomplishments in their schooling or work can be strong assets to an airline, future trainers, tech pilots, managers.

Disregarding someone only due to lack of flight time could result in missing a valuable employee for the company & top talent hires.

You can look for things like achievement awards, air cadets’ scholarships, community recognition or industry participation. Their work projects & other skills can bring experience to a company not gained only by flight hours.

Ideally, a company should have pilots at all stages of development – 0 hour, 250, 500, 750, 1000, 1250, 1500 & up. If the company’s only hiring above a certain time threshold, then the company’s missing all the occasions to hire top talents who may never again apply to your company after they settle in somewhere else.

The industry’s changed, hiring a variety of pilots with different experiences and backgrounds from 250 -25000 hours can benefit an airline more than hiring only one type of pilots.

[LegoMan]

The fact that Flair management is touting this as innovative way to address pilot shortage is a joke. This program is nothing more than to download the cost of training to the candidate. Flair thinks by hiring 250 hour pilot they will stick around longer. Hope all they get is cadets and nobody with any time and sense wastes their time applying there.

[the_new_guy]

The fact that Flair management is touting this as innovative way to address pilot shortage is a joke. This program is nothing more than to download the cost of training to the candidate. Flair thinks by hiring 250 hour pilot they will stick around longer. Hope all they get is cadets and nobody with any time and sense wastes their time applying there.

Very objectively asking: why is that your hope? You hate the company that much or is it that you hate someone within the company?

I'm the first to say our contract isn't good enough, but I wouldn't say that my personal hope for a carrier (any carrier) is for them to be unsuccessful at something.

Is it the business model that doesn't do it for you? The contract? The plane?

Just curious.