Poll - September 2023 - Hours at work pilot vs. 9-5 worker

[CanadaAir]

I'm not exactly sure what the purpose of your posts are, and I don't necessarily disagree with you. Both Bede and I have worked for years with ALPA to help improve the working conditions for our pilots. There have already been some pretty great scheduling/pay improvements in the last 6 years and the ALPA pilot reps will continue to work to improve conditions cause there are still improvements to be made.

The purpose of the post was to determine if pilots think they're working more hours than the average 9-5, many pilots have different work schedules. The polls indicating that several pilots are working more than the standard 160 hrs in September, some are working less

The second thing which you’re discussing is whether a pilot should be paid 1:1 for the time they are at the airport on duty in uniform. Many airlines have rules that are now 1:2

Should it be 1:1?

Since you are both representing with ALPA, what’s your thoughts?

What about 100% deadhead pay? 1:1 for all time spent waiting to board & flying on deadhead flights?

[Bede]

The second thing which you’re discussing is whether a pilot should be paid 1:1 for the time they are at the airport on duty in uniform. Many airlines have rules that are now 1:2

Should it be 1:1?

So you're asking if I prefer to be paid on duty time rather than credit?

[CanadaAir]

The second thing which you’re discussing is whether a pilot should be paid 1:1 for the time they are at the airport on duty in uniform. Many airlines have rules that are now 1:2

Should it be 1:1?

So you're asking if I prefer to be paid on duty time rather than credit?

Consider that the flight credit system remains similar to current.

The change would be for every hour on duty while not flying, you are now paid 1:1. One hour of pay for every hour on duty not flying.
This could be for time spent waiting around for boarding, delays, weather, maintenance, empty time between flights.
There are airlines paying 50% for this time, some smaller companies do not pay for this time, only flight time.

Do you think it should be 100% instead of 50%?

[JBI]

The second thing which you’re discussing is whether a pilot should be paid 1:1 for the time they are at the airport on duty in uniform. Many airlines have rules that are now 1:2

Should it be 1:1?

So you're asking if I prefer to be paid on duty time rather than credit?

Consider that the flight credit system remains similar to current.

The change would be for every hour on duty while not flying, you are now paid 1:1. One hour of pay for every hour on duty not flying.
This could be for time spent waiting around for boarding, delays, weather, maintenance, empty time between flights.
There are airlines paying 50% for this time, some smaller companies do not pay for this time, only flight time.

Do you think it should be 100% instead of 50%?

Your questions are a "false dilemma" and unfortunately contain informal fallacies in your logical reasoning. You provide incorrect comparisons based on false premises.

If the question is "do I think pilots should get paid more with a better schedule?" my answer is "sure!"

But this line of reasoning based on incorrect comparisons to an inaccurate description of "standard worker" simply does not follow. It's the same as saying "an airline needs a CEO and an airline needs Flight Attendants", the CEO makes $2 million per year so Flight Attendants should make $2 million per year because that's what the CEO makes. It's an argument and I'm sure FA's would love to make $2 million but it’s easy to see the problems with that argument.

With regard to Flight Credit vs. Duty Credit vs. Time Away From Base. Determining how pilots get paid is always an interesting discussion. But your logic falls apart with your false assumption that "Consider the flight credit system remains similar to current". If we fundamentally change the way pilots are paid, why would an employer agree to keep the credit system the same?

This doesn't even look at the consequences of what would happen with a drastic change in pilot pay. Businesses are all about maximizing productivity of resources. If the equation for determining pilot utilization was altered, do you think pilots' schedules would look the same? The scheduling software would find the most productive way to minimize costs and schedules would look completely different (and, in my opinion, be significantly worse based on the renewed focus on duty productivity).

For example, I'm on a pairing right now that involves a 23 hour layover in a cool city. I like that. One of the reasons the company schedules a layover is that due to duty regulations, there have been a few times where delays cause flight crews to exceed their duty time and/or the return flight needs to be cancelled. While the company wouldn't necessarily want to pay hotel, transportation and TAFB costs for the crew, it's cheaper than the relatively high risk of having to cancel flights. However, if our TAFB costs were to drastically increase, that changes the equation. Suddenly, the cost of occasionally having to cancel a flight, send it to a different destination and re-accommodate all the passengers is actually less than paying to keep a crew overnight in the city. True story, our Flight Attendants used to get this layover too, but with their new contract, if they exceed duty time they simply get a small extra payment. The pilots get a nice layover, the flight attendants get a 13 hour duty day that occasionally gets extended.

Luckily, at my airline there are lots of options for single day pairings for those pilots that prefer to sleep in their own bed every single night.

I enjoyed going to an MLB baseball game last night in a cool US city and had an awesome sleep in a quiet hotel bed with no kids. I slept really well knowing that with RIGS, on this pairing I'll get paid the better of total flight credits, 1:2 duty time or 1:4 Time Away From Base. It's a nice balance of ensuring I get paid for my full time, while also providing scheduling attributes that I really like.

[CanadaAir]

Consider that the flight credit system remains similar to current.

The change would be for every hour on duty while not flying, you are now paid 1:1. One hour of pay for every hour on duty not flying.
This could be for time spent waiting around for boarding, delays, weather, maintenance, empty time between flights.
There are airlines paying 50% for this time, some smaller companies do not pay for this time, only flight time.

Do you think it should be 100% instead of 50%?

Your questions are a "false dilemma" and unfortunately contain informal fallacies in your logical reasoning. You provide incorrect comparisons based on false premises.

If the question is "do I think pilots should get paid more with a better schedule?" my answer is "sure!"

But this line of reasoning based on incorrect comparisons to an inaccurate description of "standard worker" simply does not follow. It's the same as saying "an airline needs a CEO and an airline needs Flight Attendants", the CEO makes $2 million per year so Flight Attendants should make $2 million per year because that's what the CEO makes. It's an argument and I'm sure FA's would love to make $2 million but it’s easy to see the problems with that argument.

With regard to Flight Credit vs. Duty Credit vs. Time Away From Base. Determining how pilots get paid is always an interesting discussion. But your logic falls apart with your false assumption that "Consider the flight credit system remains similar to current". If we fundamentally change the way pilots are paid, why would an employer agree to keep the credit system the same?

This doesn't even look at the consequences of what would happen with a drastic change in pilot pay. Businesses are all about maximizing productivity of resources. If the equation for determining pilot utilization was altered, do you think pilots' schedules would look the same? The scheduling software would find the most productive way to minimize costs and schedules would look completely different (and, in my opinion, be significantly worse based on the renewed focus on duty productivity).

Disagree on your reasoning & criticism of the original statements as false

It's shown multiple times on this site that airlines can afford to pay much higher.
1:1 pay for duty time while keeping flight credits similar can be done

The employer may not want it. Although ALPA & pilots may not push for it
its possible

Changes to scheduling may be more beneficial than the current system.

As someone involved in ALPA, you should represent & explore all possibilities

even if things are well for you there are many pilots which aren't as happy with the scheduling or pay

[CanadaAir]

However, your approach hurts your (our) argument. You've started with false assumptions about other comparable careers (pay, entrance requirements, training etc.) and then try and make an argument that pilots should be comparable to those false assumptions. If Bede or I did that in front of an arbitrator we'd be laughed out of the room.

Where did the posts say anything about comparing entrance requirements or training or pay?

The discussion was whether, independent of pay rate, a pilot should be paid 1:1 for hours on duty at the airport while in uniform as required by the company to conduct a flight?

Similar to the many other workers at jobs who are paid 1:1, including most of the other workers at the airport.

Many large airlines are already paying 0.5:1 for duty time
Some are 0.6:1 for duty time

Some airlines are paying 1:1 for duty time while deadheading

It's not a stretch to consider the concept of 1:1 for all duty time

You mentioned airlines using resources better.
If pilots were paid 1:1 for all duty time, maybe the airline would find a way to reduce unproductive duty time. Less waiting around airports, more flying instead. Isn't that what pilots want? Less wasted time in the terminals.
Better scheduling.

[mijbil]

The second thing which you’re discussing is whether a pilot should be paid 1:1 for the time they are at the airport on duty in uniform. Many airlines have rules that are now 1:2

Should it be 1:1?

So you're asking if I prefer to be paid on duty time rather than credit?

I think that that is a fair question to ask. I'm over in Europe right now (WG) flying for TUI for the summer. Currently, our cabin crew back in Canada are paid in the same way as we are - brake release to brake set. It used to be door close to door open but unfortunately that was lost in our last contract signed back in fall 2020. Over here in the UK the pilots and cabin crew here at TUI are paid from check in to brake set +0:45. I am guessing that the $$ per hour amount is a bit less, but they are getting paid when we are sitting in Corfu or where-ever with a slot delay time or slow ground handling etc. We can be fully ready with all pax on board and the door closed and still not getting paid because we haven't pushed yet. They are getting paid the whole time.

Since we are on duty from the moment we show up at the gate, I would like to get paid for all that time. Maintenance delays, catering not there, slow bridge operator, waiting for push clearance, etc. All those minutes add up over a month.
The other one that irks me a bit, at least here at WG and at the previous outfit, is getting only half the credit for online training compared to the time allotted. The time allotted is also very conservative and even when clicking furiously, a course usually takes longer, but that's another story. Basically, pay me when I'm doing company work on a 1:1 ratio.

[rookiepilot]

Doctor, lawyer, police, fire, nurse are paid for every hr worked & overtime rates when past normal.
To say pilots are similar, then every hr of duty in uniform should be paid 1 to 1.

Lol. No. Doctors are on fee for service in most cases. They get paid for, let's say a procedure. Follow up, paperwork, etc. is "all baked in" for nothing extra. For physicians who are salaried, it's even worse: they get their salary in exchange for signing over their life for on-call. A friend of mine is a brain surgeon. He makes about 2x as much as I do (~$600k/yr). In exchange he works 80-110 hrs/week.

Let's not use doctors and lawyers as comparisons then.

Most other workers, police, fire, paramedic, nurse, construction, retail, oil have 1 to 1 pay & overtime.

These “most other workers” — All of whom top out in compensation far, far lower than a pilot does with equivalent seniority/ experience. (Lets say 10 years).

Doctors and Lawyers, that is not the case, but they work far more hours.

Seems to me in this rambling thread, you are trying to make the case for Doctor — Surgeon and Trial Lawyer levels of top end compensation, while also advocating for the security, hours and working conditions of an hourly worker.

Can’t have it both ways. I’ve been self employed a long time. On a good year I will make more than any pilot, on a crappy year I’ll be negative. Been lots of those, too.

Zero security, unlimited hours working when required. But, I WFH. Tradeoffs….

I support higher wages — for entry level pilots. The top end is already rich.

Doctors, Lawyers? Both also start with heavy school debts and poor compensation.

[ant_321]

One thing I’ve come to learn over the years is that most pilots think other professions work way less than they do and make way more. The most and hardest I’ve ever worked was during covid when I was working a “9-5”. I still can’t comprehend that people willing work that much for their whole lives. If you’re a pilot working more hours than a 9-5 worker, it’s time to look for a new job or new position in my opinion.

[RippleRock]

I don't care "one fig" about who values my contribution other than my employer. What's the point of a "pissing match" between professions anyways? Each has unique requirements, training regime and each has a different set of "on the job stressors".

It's between us and our employer. Do you think any Longshoreman cared what others thought when they demanded what they got? Not one. How about the UPS drivers? How about the upcoming Southwest strikers? What about the UAW? NOPE.

Unionism. It's the only thing that will drive any gain. Outside that, you do you, I''ll do me. I'm not losing sleep about anyone outside aviation who "doesn't understand my value", and I'm not making any effort to educate them. It's pointless, and a waste of my time.