Can a training bond that was NOT signed be enforced?

[digits_]

Obviously there's nowhere near enough background to truly assess this situation but I will admit that my eyebrows raised just a bit on the part that the timeline is less than a year from start to finish. And yet it seems most respondents think it's the operator that's the problem. Hmmm?!

The most objective way to look at it, is to compare what other pilots in a similar situation would do.

If most pilots stay 4+ years, and the OP leaves after 9 months, it's likely the OP is the 'problem'.
If most pilots stay less than 1 year, it's likely the company is the 'problem'.

Also note he's willing to pay the bond he actually signed.

Are we going to give pilots grief now because they aren't willing to pay out bonds that they *didn't* sign?

[joefo]

You didn’t sign the contract so you are not legally bond by the conditions of said contract. Tell them to pound sand. Also who is the operator??

Wild guess, but sounds pretty similar to an operation out of The Pas that goes by MA?

[rookiepilot]

Obviously there's nowhere near enough background to truly assess this situation but I will admit that my eyebrows raised just a bit on the part that the timeline is less than a year from start to finish. And yet it seems most respondents think it's the operator that's the problem. Hmmm?!

The most objective way to look at it, is to compare what other pilots in a similar situation would do.

If most pilots stay 4+ years, and the OP leaves after 9 months, it's likely the OP is the 'problem'.
If most pilots stay less than 1 year, it's likely the company is the 'problem'.

Also note he's willing to pay the bond he actually signed.

Are we going to give pilots grief now because they aren't willing to pay out bonds that they *didn't* sign?

Depends.

Should people honor verbal contracts they agree to? What about companies who make verbal promises on hiring as to working conditions? Can they also renege because it wasn't in the employment contract or letter signed by the officers? Is that the same or not?

[digits_]

Obviously there's nowhere near enough background to truly assess this situation but I will admit that my eyebrows raised just a bit on the part that the timeline is less than a year from start to finish. And yet it seems most respondents think it's the operator that's the problem. Hmmm?!

The most objective way to look at it, is to compare what other pilots in a similar situation would do.

If most pilots stay 4+ years, and the OP leaves after 9 months, it's likely the OP is the 'problem'.
If most pilots stay less than 1 year, it's likely the company is the 'problem'.

Also note he's willing to pay the bond he actually signed.

Are we going to give pilots grief now because they aren't willing to pay out bonds that they *didn't* sign?

Depends.

Should people honor verbal contracts they agree to? What about companies who make verbal promises on hiring as to working conditions? Can they also renege because it wasn't in the employment contract or letter signed by the officers? Is that the same or not?

Yes they should. I'm not sure the company here had a verbal agreement from the pilot. I've signed a few bonds in my career. The verbal component there was always 'are you willing to sign a bond for training?' -'depending on the terms in the bond, probably yes'. And then they made me sign a bond before training starts. If they would never have given me a bond to sign, then that would have been on them. How would you even know all the legal details in the bond without seeing the actual paperwork?

The interesting part is that I also wanted to leave most of those jobs before the bond was up (and pay them out), because the company did not represent the working conditions accurately. They lied, I had to pay.

The job I stayed longest at, was a job without a bond.

[modi13]

He did not say all the training. Provided the employer did the required dedicated training and the captain had a single pilotPPC ,( and company Ops allowed it) nothing wrong with gaining experience on rev flights.

Unless they're operating a King Air VFR only, which seems exceedingly unlikely, the captain wouldn't have a single-pilot PPC in a 703 operation.

[rookiepilot]

The most objective way to look at it, is to compare what other pilots in a similar situation would do.

If most pilots stay 4+ years, and the OP leaves after 9 months, it's likely the OP is the 'problem'.
If most pilots stay less than 1 year, it's likely the company is the 'problem'.

Also note he's willing to pay the bond he actually signed.

Are we going to give pilots grief now because they aren't willing to pay out bonds that they *didn't* sign?

Depends.

Should people honor verbal contracts they agree to? What about companies who make verbal promises on hiring as to working conditions? Can they also renege because it wasn't in the employment contract or letter signed by the officers? Is that the same or not?

Yes they should. I'm not sure the company here had a verbal agreement from the pilot. I've signed a few bonds in my career. The verbal component there was always 'are you willing to sign a bond for training?' -'depending on the terms in the bond, probably yes'. And then they made me sign a bond before training starts. If they would never have given me a bond to sign, then that would have been on them. How would you even know all the legal details in the bond without seeing the actual paperwork?

The interesting part is that I also wanted to leave most of those jobs before the bond was up (and pay them out), because the company did not represent the working conditions accurately. They lied, I had to pay.

The job I stayed longest at, was a job without a bond.

How can you say they lied? If the employment contract working conditions weren't in writing, isn't that on you to obtain that? You may still reassess and be unhappy enough to leave, but that is different. To me its identical to agreeing to a bond, or anything else 2 parties agree to.

I am only analyzing communications from a contract agreement point of view. I have no clue what anyone said or agreed to, obviously.

[digits_]

How can you say they lied? If the employment contract working conditions weren't in writing, isn't that on you to obtain that? You may still reassess and be unhappy enough to leave, but that is different. To me its identical to agreeing to a bond, or anything else 2 parties agree to.

I am only analyzing communications from a contract agreement point of view. I have no clue what anyone said or agreed to, obviously.

Theoretically, sure. Realistically, if I would have asked to put down everything they told me in writing, they would have just moved on to the next candidate. Perhaps not today, but back then, definitely. I also had no reason to doubt them.

Some examples of oral promises that turned out to be false were things like schedule and things involving the rolling duty day crap medevac operators use(d).

Bonds would be a lot more balanced if all those things had to be defined when writing one. Alternatively, you could show the employee handbook or ops manual to pilots during the final stage of the interview. And sign the job offer and bond based on those conditions. That would keep things much more transparent.

[all_ramped_up]

You didn’t sign the contract so you are not legally bond by the conditions of said contract. Tell them to pound sand. Also who is the operator??

Wild guess, but sounds pretty similar to an operation out of The Pas that goes by MA?

I'd wager a toonie on that.

[BrachioBleu]

I will only say the province is Manitoba...

Today I received the formal notice. They're asking for 24000$, even more than was supposed to be claimed

[digits_]

I will only say the province is Manitoba...

Today I received the formal notice. They're asking for 24000$, even more than was supposed to be claimed

Did you even make that much working for them for 9 months?

[cdnavater]

I will only say the province is Manitoba...

Today I received the formal notice. They're asking for 24000$, even more than was supposed to be claimed

I think it’s time to go nuclear, tell them you recently discovered that your training during revenue flights didn’t count and would like a break down of how they arrived at that number given they were remunerated already for the training legs you received.
Curious, can you prove the training received was during revenue trips, photos of log pages would be great!

[digits_]

Which CAR prevents training during revenue flights?

[Donald]

Should people honor verbal contracts they agree to? What about companies who make verbal promises on hiring as to working conditions? Can they also renege because it wasn't in the employment contract or letter signed by the officers? Is that the same or not?

If you search canlii you will find a case of a pilot who broke a verbal training agreement. Court ruled in favour of the company.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I will only say the province is Manitoba...

Today I received the formal notice. They're asking for 24000$, even more than was supposed to be claimed

I bet it rhymes with Mississippi. Good luck to you. I suggest contact a lawyer.

[Bede]

Today I received the formal notice. They're asking for 24000$, even more than was supposed to be claimed

Let this be a lesson to all new pilots.
1) don't work for shady outfits
2) don't sign bonds or, especially, work for companies that have their bonds in an employee handbook.
3) if you must sign a bond, ensure it's equitable.

[Bede]

Which CAR prevents training during revenue flights?

The fact that you're not completing the training exercises. If you're spending more time getting from A to B then you are doing steep turns, holds, approaches, etc then you're not doing training.

[porcsord]

Unless they're operating a King Air VFR only, which seems exceedingly unlikely, the captain wouldn't have a single-pilot PPC in a 703 operation.

Strange, I used to fly BE20/30 single Pilot IFR 703 all the time. It's a single pilot airplane.

[digits_]

Unless they're operating a King Air VFR only, which seems exceedingly unlikely, the captain wouldn't have a single-pilot PPC in a 703 operation.

Strange, I used to fly BE20/30 single Pilot IFR 703 all the time. It's a single pilot airplane.

True, even multi pilot operations often give their king air captains a single pilot ppc 'just in case'. The difference is one single pilot circuit I believe during the check ride. It's usually worth it to cover those rare occurrences of having a sick fo and wanting to fly the plane back to base.

[goldeneagle]

Which CAR prevents training during revenue flights?

The fact that you're not completing the training exercises. If you're spending more time getting from A to B then you are doing steep turns, holds, approaches, etc then you're not doing training.

When I did my Beech 18 training, over half was done on revenue flights. The owner of the time took me up in the airplane after dinner one evening, we did the basic stuff, steep turns, stalls, yadda for a bit over an hour. Non rev trip in an empty airplane. The next morning it was scheduled to head out with a load of freight to a strip an hour and a bit from home base, I was told to show up for the trip. Owner put me in the left seat and off we went. On the way to the final destination we landed at 5 different airstrips getting progressively more difficult as we went. One was a one way, a couple were decent gravel at logging camps. Final destination was a fishing lodge, strip was narrow, crowned with a slight dogleg at the crown.

As he put it to me, I wont learn the airplane flying around empty, but maneuvering in and out with a full lload at some of these strips will teach me more about flying this airplane than any amount of circuits back home. I believe he was correct.

[digits_]

Which CAR prevents training during revenue flights?

The fact that you're not completing the training exercises. If you're spending more time getting from A to B then you are doing steep turns, holds, approaches, etc then you're not doing training.

When I did my Beech 18 training, over half was done on revenue flights. The owner of the time took me up in the airplane after dinner one evening, we did the basic stuff, steep turns, stalls, yadda for a bit over an hour. Non rev trip in an empty airplane. The next morning it was scheduled to head out with a load of freight to a strip an hour and a bit from home base, I was told to show up for the trip. Owner put me in the left seat and off we went. On the way to the final destination we landed at 5 different airstrips getting progressively more difficult as we went. One was a one way, a couple were decent gravel at logging camps. Final destination was a fishing lodge, strip was narrow, crowned with a slight dogleg at the crown.

As he put it to me, I wont learn the airplane flying around empty, but maneuvering in and out with a full lload at some of these strips will teach me more about flying this airplane than any amount of circuits back home. I believe he was correct.

That's why line indoc is often required as well. But even then, I think your 'revenue training flight' example meets the spirit of training much more than flying X hours with passengers in the back and calling it training.

[PersonPersonson]

You didn’t sign the contract so you are not legally bond by the conditions of said contract. Tell them to pound sand. Also who is the operator??

Smells like Mississippi Airways big time