Ali Atoui- YOU SUCK!!

[just another pilot]

Cal, what better incentive is there then to disswuade throwing the first punch? Golda Meir's quote was in response to the Munich massacre and the continued hatred of Jews by certain Muslem's who have no regard for human life - including their suicide bombing children. That was my point.

So I wask you, does a sovereign country have the right to defend themselves? And does a sovereign country have the international responsibility to address radicals within their borders that pose a direct threat to neighboring countries civillians?

[niss]

I honestly think that the assasinations were the best form of punishment. you incite fear against the wrong doers, you penalise the wrong doers and you let the future wrong doers know not to @#$! with you.

I happen to like the form of dealing with black september better than how they are launching aerial attacks on militant cars.

I personaly believe getting in close to someone and cleverly blowing them up is a much more personal way of getting even and also has they psychological aspect to it. If you know that at any point a helicopter can hit you with a hellfire, you are careful, if you think that no matter where you go there is something that will get you, something small, something quiet. You are forever paranoid.

There is only so far you can push diplomacy, and with people hellbent on destroying you and innocent people, there is only one choice.

There comes a point where we (Israel) has to stop being civil, and decent. There comes a point where realistically, the only course of action is vengence. There is no point in taking prisoners that can be released in a trade, there is no point in sending in troops that would risk both Israeli, and civilian casualties. Personally I think it is time for punishment. Nazrallah, Hassan, all the like........these people have no right to be free.......they have no right to invoke terror on people........they have no right to live.......

Od yavoh shalom aleynu, Od yavoh shalom aleynu, Od yavoh shalom aleynu, ve hacol Yisroel!

[Vickers vanguard]

continued hatred of Jews by certain Muslem's who have no regard for human life

oh la la !! poor jews! I would like to know, for how long you guys plan to keep whining like this ??? you've been crying for the last 2500 years ! everybody hates you for no reasons. oh no, there is a reason, you're God's prefered people ! so we're just jealous......voila! you know now!

[Siddley Hawker]

continued hatred of Jews by certain Muslem's who have no regard for human life

oh la la !! poor jews! I would like to know, for how long you guys plan to keep whining like this ??? you've been crying for the last 2500 years ! everybody hates you for no reasons. oh no, there is a reason, you're God's prefered people ! so we're just jealous......voila! you know now!

I'm not Jewish Vickers Vanguard, and I don't hate the Jews nor do I think they're God's chosen people. But there are six million reasons why I cut them a lot of slack when it comes to protecting the Jewish homeland from the cocksuckers who say Israel should be wiped off the map and that the holocaust never happened, whether said cocksuckers try to do it themselves or by proxy using Hezbollah and Hamas.

[just another pilot]

Hmm...how long? (Btw, I'm not Jewish, but I am somewhat educated.) So, to answer such an intelligent question, I would presume as long as cowards hijack aircraft, plant bombs in shadows and launch weapons like scuds and other missiles at civillian targets.

Wow. I cant believe anyone would defend or justify launching missiles at Jewish civillians. Seig heil Vickers...

[mellow_pilot]

Now, now... There's plenty of blame to go around.

I think it's rich people's fault. People who have nothing better to do with their time than cook up wars so they can make more money than anyone could hope to spend in a life time. Like Halibuton execs, for example. What's the freaking point? If you can't spend it all, why have it?

Buddy President of Iran. Another example of someone who is just flexing balls for no reason. I mean, ok, so you can manipulate the region, so what? Who cares? Don't you have a camel race to watch or something? Hell, you're the president, I'm sure you could find something to occupy your time other tahn inciting death and destruction. Western Presidents seem to like BJ's from interns, start there if you're bored.

Wait, what was the question?

[LH]

niss ......there are lots of North American Christian leaders that proport to be speaking for the majority of Christians. Me and a whole lot of other like folks who define ourselves as non church-going Christians of one kind or another don't feel that these learned gentlemen are speaking for us at all and in fact I'm ashamed many times to have some of these learned Christan gentlemen as members of my faith and I wonder sometimes what planet they were raise on.

In my part of Planet Earth, the leaders of the various Christan religions do not have anywhere the power over me and my peers that those same leaders do in other countries. They all did at one time eons ago, but not anymore. I've also noticed in my travels over the decades that where the people are less affluent and don't have the many opportunities as me and my kind do, that their churches and religious leaders play a much larger role. IF and WHEN war ever comes to their doorsteps, one finds that the most fanatic soldier is the one that is fighting for his church, it's most basic of beliefs and those that lead those religions......because they have little or anything else to hold onto. Now if everyone everywhere could somehow get their religious leaders to keep their damn mouthes SHUT until asked to open them, then there'd be a awful lot of innocent people alive in this world that are long since dead and that number would well into the 10's of billions.

I also have friends, some Middle Eastern and some not, who all agree totally with what I have just stated. Asked if they would have agreed openly in their home countries with the above, they all replied "No because I'm not stupid either". So not agreeing with your religion's stance on something or marching in some protest about it can be the dumbest thing in the world that you can do in some of those same countries and in many of those same countires can cause you to disappear after supper some evening.

[niss]

LH while you do present a good point, it seems that when I said that all religions had a dark history, Islam has a dark, history, and present. Even in moderate countries in the west, islamic terrorists are recruited and funded. Howcome they are the only ones so gung ho about violence? Why do they buy so quickly into the hateful rehtoric?

Heres an example, there was this white guy on the news in toronto, he converted to islam and was very religions, he was introduced to some body who started spouting hated and eventually he bought into it, he was ready to commit acts of terror against the infidel, when his parents questioned what he was doing, he found them a threat to his religion and threatened to kill them. He has changed his ways and is now very peaceful, but he has seen the dark side.

His Mosque was the one where those people were giving away DVDs glorifying 9/11 and other acts of terrorism, and telling people it was their duty.

[goates]

[quote="niss"]LH while you do present a good point, it seems that when I said that all religions had a dark history, Islam has a dark, history, and present. Even in moderate countries in the west, islamic terrorists are recruited and funded. Howcome they are the only ones so gung ho about violence? Why do they buy so quickly into the hateful rehtoric?quote]

The problems in Ireland are pretty recent and split along Catholic/Protestant lines. From what I've seen on documentaries, members of the KKK were good, honest, "God fearing" people just doing what they thought was right under God (at least that's what they thought). They are still around in some places, although not quite as voilent as they used to be. As LH was saying, religous based problems have more to do with education and/or poverty than anything else.

An interesting point that I heard on some talk show a while ago is that both Judaism and Christianity went through very radical periods about 1000 to 1500 years after they began. Considering that Islam is related to these religions and started around 600AD, we're now almost 1500 years after it was started and it seems to be following a similar path. I'm not sure how accurate this all is as I don't as much about the history of Judaism, but it does seem to fit with Christianity.

[niss]

Dont forget those times were a quite barbaric time for all humanity, while the same can be said for now, we have toned down our lust for violence, there are no gladiators killing eachother in huge arenas, etc.

Also werent most of the IRA attacks to gain sovreignty? Werent most of them against the military? 1972 Munich Massacre, Palestinian terrorists went out of their way and out of their country to kidnap and kill Israeli citizens, 9/11 attacks on Americain soil, there are quite a few destroyed embassies to choose from.....

It seems that Islam has a policy.....

Again, I hate all forms of extremism, and to the peacefull Muslims, keep up the good work and pass on the peacefull word of God.

[LH]

You best take a long look at the Christian religion and the atrocities committed by it over the eons and also by over-zealous people willing to do anything for it and it's leaders. That old news from too far back perhaps? How about the role that the church played in segregation in the American southwest and how it turned a blind-eye to worse than that. Perhaps you're also heard of a place called Nrothern Ireland, a man called Rev. Ian Paisley and an organization called the IRA. The Muslims are just the new "in-group" of today's news because of the space they ocupy in the news media and because of their high profile accomplishments. Just months ago it was Iran and their President occupying the news and spouting his views about eradicating the State of Israel.........now you hear hardly anything about or from him........he's just using another method. Would you also like to tell me how many anti-government leaning news media that there exists in Muslim countries ANYWHERE. This is one of the main vehicles used by all sides in this conflict and those Muslims against all this have therefore no way of voicing their opinions and letting the world know about them. Speak to the vast majority of Muslims in our free socities and many have "issues" of one sort or another, but having it dealt with like their bretheren at home are doing, is not acceptable to them.

I'm aware of the story you mentioned about the Toronto man. I'm also aware that you are speaking of ONE man and not "painting" all Muslims in Toronto or Canada with the "same paint brush"........at least I trust not. The good ones aren't reported about because there's nothing to report out-of-normal and that's boring news.

[goates]

Also werent most of the IRA attacks to gain sovereignty?

Isn't that basically what Hezbollah and the PLO are/were fighting for?

I haven't read about one conflict yet that wasn't based on power in one form or another, either political and/or economic power. Religion is just one of the tools used (or more correctly, abused) as means to an end.

[niss]

Hezbollah, not any more, Hamas yes, but wasnt the IRA mainly attacking military targets?

And again what of black september and munich? this wasnt an easy target of oppourtunity....this was meticulusly (sp?) planned and executed.

No I am not painting all Muslims with the same brush, I am aware that there are pleanty of Muslims that are peaceful, and promote love for their fellow man. I am just submitting that as to who is interpriting the Koran wrong......people say that the terrorists are misinterpriting the Koran. That works if its perhapse a few thousand people in a sect, but its not It is very wide spread. The hate is taught beyond specific borders and regions. I doubt very much that the hateful ones are as small of a minority as they are made out to be.

Even if hypothetically the peaceful to hateful ratio is 50:50 that makes you wonder who is reading the koran properly. I have no problem with Muslims as a whole, I have a problem with those who choose to terrorise people. My point is that how are so many of them reading the Koran so wrong that they attack innocents? Maybe they are reading it right and its the rest of them that are reading it wrong. You cant really dispute that. There is evidence of both sides from what I have heard. There is the stuff about not harming civilians, people who do not fight back, etc. etc. but there is also stuff about how to conduct a holy war in defence of your religon.

Again.....Muhammed Cartoons

[goates]

Hezbollah, not any more, Hamas yes, but wasnt the IRA mainly attacking military targets?

Nope, they were very much attacking civilians. The parents of a friend of mine were almost killed a couple of times by IRA bombs. Why do you think London and Britain reacted as calmly as it did compared to New York when their subway was bombed last year? They have gone through it many times before.

My point is that how are so many of them reading the Koran so wrong that they attack innocents?

How many of those Muslims you are talking about are living in third world countries? What education levels do they have? If they have little else to get them through life, it isn't hard to accept what a Muslim (or even Christian) spreading his religion says in the hope that it does bring hope and happiness as promised. As many of them are not as well educated, it isn't hard at that point to be manipulated. If the Muslim person spreading Islam is a radical, they of course are going to spread the fanatical interpretations.

This isn't much different than the general population in Europe a thousand years ago. The average person had little, if any, education and only had the Church for guidance. Today, however, there are millions more people in poverty across Africa, the Middle East and Indonesia, providing a much larger base for radicals to recruit from. When people are under conditions like that, it doesn't take very much to convince them that it's the evil West that is the root of all their problems (of course the US and others have caused problems, but not all of them).

And even with a better educated population, it isn't hard to manipulate people in large groups. Hitler in the 30's demonising the Jews with little resistance is one example. Bush Jr. seems to be trying to do something similar today, although not quite as extreme as the final solution.

In the end it comes down to people abusing religions for their own personal goals. After all, if martyring yourself is so great, why haven't Bin Laden and Nasrellah (sp?) blown themselves up yet?

[Vickers vanguard]

? 1972 Munich Massacre, Palestinian terrorists went out of their way and out of their country to kidnap and kill Israeli citizens, 9/11 attacks on Americain soil, there are quite a few destroyed embassies to choose from.....

.

9/11 ???? Hhhhhere we go again ! I could see you coming Rabi kahana Niss ! you guys are always trying to link events to your cause......you guys are truly the masters of delusion and manipulation.Munich?? what a significant event, and what a big loss ?? people have died by the hundred of thousands and even by the millions since then, but the only thing you want the planet to remember is Munich !
But all that hard work paid off after all, it's now a taboo to even put in question anything regarding your history !
I heard that the Mighty IDF had some serious casualities today..........but don't worry, they still managed to bomb and kill more children and women in Beirut......easier hey ! I'm truly impressed by the performance.

[niss]

You know what VV.....why dont you keep the ball rolling, go out kill a jew, lynch a nigger, and torture a fag.....keep living the dream buddy keep living the dream.

[Vickers vanguard]

You know what VV.....why dont you keep the ball rolling, go out kill a jew, lynch a nigger, and torture a fag.....keep living the dream buddy keep living the dream.

That is exactly what I was saying, you start critisizing jews.........and sure enough, you're portrayed as a killer !! Everything is done to prevent people from even thinking about it . And what's the deal with blacks and gays ??? I don't think I even mentioned it.

[niss]

No but I figured while I was going to label you a skinhead I might as well not half ass it...

[LH]

Niss ------- the whole IRA thing began waaay before the IRA existed, but they used the same reasons for fighting against the Brits as their ancients did, but added a politcal one also.....because in 1921 part of their country won their independence after a nasty and dirty war. Some disagreed with the Treaty that was signed and vowed to continue the war against the Protestants and Orageman, but now had a political target to add to their religious one. They set up their political wing....."The Seine Fein" for the political war and carried-on with the reminants of an IRA Army that was supposed to have been dis-banded after the war was finished. There was in fact an Irish Republian Army that won independence for what later became known as "The Irsh Free State" that you see exist at this time as plain old Ireland.

William of Orange was King of Britain at the time and put down uprisings in Ireland, culminating in one final last battle where he won. An orgainization began about that time called "The Orangemen" and they ranked right up there with the Masons and the Knights of Columbus.....with one huge exception........they were the fervent or zealous ones and had absolutely no use for Roman Catholics.....and still don't to this day. They were also an instrumental part of urging John A. MacDonald to go after Louis Riel because they felt the Pope had too much influence in the Red River Settlement

Hatred? I knew an older girl back home who eloped with her Roman Catholic boyfriend and got married. She was no kid, but a gal of about 21 years old. Her dad was an Orangeman and when he found out he demanded she get diverced from "that damned Mick or her shadow was never to grace her parent's doorway again. She didn't........nor did she ever again see her parents....nor did they ever see the resultant grandchildren. She had a brother, who didn't marry a Roman Catholic and that was okay with them and they saw the granddkids in that situation and all was normal.......except her name was never mentioned again in their presence........ nor did they know that they had an aunt. The father in question was a ranking mamber of CNR management in the HR departement. Guess what your chances of being hired in that Region of CNR where if this man knew your religion? Ahhhh, but that not allowed and they're heavy fines for corporations proven to be doing so. There are also a host of imaginative ways of detouring around that problem also.

So yes, all the groups you mentioned have a political side also, but you can bet your bippie that religion and their Imans keep the herde "in line" and the poer eminates from them.

Always keep in mind also that the power of the Imans in the average Muslim country has no ewual here amongst our religious leaders of any stripe. The last days of that where when Popes had immense power over the decisions of people like King Phillipe, King of Spain during theirn exploration years and instigated more than one war and also the Spanish Inquistion where untold numbers where deemed heretics and burnt on some cross. Nowadays, we'd all listen to what the Pope said and then maybe switch back over to the CFL game and forget all about what he said with no fear of any kind of repercussions to anyone. The Imans still carry that kind of power and still run the State of Iran. That must make folks like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson postively drool with envy.

I only rambled on much too long here because we have a bunch of fervent folks on our side of the ledger also, with large followings, their interpretations of the Bible and many of them are damned scary in their beliefs.

[just another pilot]

Woooow. Ok, Vic. Educate us on the different types of terrorism. Go ahead, explain the difference...
Munich and current events are relavent to this thread, so is terrorism - that, my little Arian friend is why they were mentioned. Burn any good books lately?

Darn, I can't seem to find the emoticon with the goose step...

[niss]

What about the poor and uneducated arab Christians? Why are they not hopping on the bandwagon?

[goates]

What about the poor and uneducated arab Christians? Why are they not hopping on the bandwagon?

Besides a few Christian nut jobs around the world, the overwhelming majority of Christians have moved past the whole fanatical thing and learned to live peacefully with others. When was the last time the Pope called for the annihilation of any group? What about the Church of England? Between the more educated Christians realizing that violence is not the answer, and the less educated following their local priest, you aren't going to get any where near the same number of fanatics fighting in Chrit's name.

On the other hand there are still many Imams and Sheiks living in the 10th century pushing Muslims to violence. As with almost any group, it's often the more extreme members that are the most vocal, and thus the ones everyone hears about. It's these fanatical ones that are looking to increase their power and are preying on the less well educated. There also isn't any one Muslim "church" equivalent to the Roman Catholic, Church of England or Orthodox Church to give guidance to all Muslims. It's pretty much up to each individual Imam.

[mellow_pilot]

I beg to differ. The Arab Christians, as it was put, aren't jumping on the bandwagon because they are not being given the same demon. Their leaders aren't telling them that it's the west's fault. Kinda hard to call people of the same faith the infadel causing all your troubles. Even for the uneducated, it's a hard sell to satanize people who believe in the same all powerful fairy-tale as you do.

Christianity, as was alluded to by goates, is also less overtly involved in international politics. They choose to poke around in the lifestyle and 'social valuse' arena. In most cases, politicians have replaced the priesthood in Christian culture when it comes to manipulation of the masses. The church then pressures the politicians, behind the scenes like, eh govna?

It's not that Christians can't be just as violent, it's simply that Christian powers use terms like 'pre-emptive self defence' in lieu of holy war.

[goates]

I beg to differ. The Arab Christians, as it was put, aren't jumping on the bandwagon because they are not being given the same demon. Their leaders aren't telling them that it's the west's fault. Kinda hard to call people of the same faith the infadel causing all your troubles. Even for the uneducated, it's a hard sell to satanize people who believe in the same all powerful fairy-tale as you do.

Is it really that hard? Protestants and Catholics were killing each other not that long ago in Ireland, and the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox haven't gotten along well over the centuries. It probably wouldn't be hard to portray the Western countries as not being true Christian, or having lost their way.

Look at Iraq too. Sunnis and Shiites are killing each other as much as they are going after American soldiers. Both are Muslim, but that doesn't mean they get along well.

[niss]

All that further re-enforces my theory that Islam is a naturaly violent religion and it is the peaceful followers who have "Strayed from the flock" like the extremists say they have.