raccoons unionize

[goingnowherefast]

Encore pilots just voted down a TA with Porter pay and better working conditions. If Porter management has any hope of defeating, or even slowing a union drive, they'd better show off this non-union flexibility they brag about and better Encore's failed TA for both pay and QOL. Encore pilots told the industry what isn't good enough. Porter management should listen too.

(image copied from Encore TA thread).

[CFM Symphony]

And what did they do to the working conditions?

I don't know, but it's also irrelevant since I was responding to your argument which was entirely predicated on pay, and pay is a much more objective measure than "working conditions."

No it's not. Working conditions are quantified during contract negotiations. Everything in a CA gets quantified - rest times, hotels. Everything.

No doubt you are correct, but it also succinctly proves my point. “Quantifying” implies a greater or lesser degree of subjectivity. We may differ on how we value hotel location, amenities, travel time etc. Pay on the other hand is pure, objective numbers. There is a reason why when a new TA comes out, nobody goes straight to the hotels section; you know where everyone jumps to first.

Anyway, none of this is to say that working conditions aren’t important, but admittedly you only raised the subject ex post. My position still stands: labour market forces outweigh union negotiations with respect to pay (and working conditions). This is pretty straight forward economics and is easily testable.

[KenLan]

Encore pilots just voted down a TA with Porter pay and better working conditions. If Porter management has any hope of defeating, or even slowing a union drive, they'd better show off this non-union flexibility they brag about and better Encore's failed TA for both pay and QOL. Encore pilots told the industry what isn't good enough. Porter management should listen too.

(image copied from Encore TA thread).

IMO accepting existing PayScale and work conditions is not progress.

Matching an already existing pay is just catching up . Which means that you're just running behind others , for a new contract. Once other will sign newer contracts, you'll be back behind hahah

[dontcallmeshirley]

IMO accepting existing PayScale and work conditions is not progress.

Matching an already existing pay is just catching up . Which means that you're just running behind others , for a new contract. Once other will sign newer contracts, you'll be back behind hahah

17 days a month in the second TA. At a regional, that is progress.

[paytoplay]

Porter is already in the process of implementing max 17 days worked FYI. You can opt to volunteer for 18 days and will be given the choice of one of the following: (1) another GDO in the next block, (2) a start credit of 5:00 at the beginning of the next monthly block, or (3) a total credit adjustment of +4:00 credits at the end of the current 18 day block.

[C-GGGQ]

IMO accepting existing PayScale and work conditions is not progress.

Matching an already existing pay is just catching up . Which means that you're just running behind others , for a new contract. Once other will sign newer contracts, you'll be back behind hahah

17 days a month in the second TA. At a regional, that is progress. I guess they figured Flair managed it so they could

17 days 6 months of the year. 18 days the other 6

[CaptDukeNukem]

IMO accepting existing PayScale and work conditions is not progress.

Matching an already existing pay is just catching up . Which means that you're just running behind others , for a new contract. Once other will sign newer contracts, you'll be back behind hahah

17 days a month in the second TA. At a regional, that is progress. I guess they figured Flair managed it so they could

17 days 6 months of the year. 18 days the other 6

Take a guess at which months those will be.

[C-GGGQ]

Exactly

[dontcallmeshirley]

When you're approached by a pro-ALPA guy next, remember that the Air Canada contract went exactly how the WestJet and Encore contracts went... bad blood between the company and pilots, promises of grand contracts, a lackluster tentative agreement with bad blood between the company and pilots.

[rudder]

When you're approached by a pro-ALPA guy next, remember that the Air Canada contract went exactly how the WestJet and Encore contracts went... bad blood between the company and pilots, promises of grand contracts, a lackluster tentative agreement with bad blood between the company and pilots.

What impact will the AC TA rates have on Porter pay rates?

[dontcallmeshirley]

When you're approached by a pro-ALPA guy next, remember that the Air Canada contract went exactly how the WestJet and Encore contracts went... bad blood between the company and pilots, promises of grand contracts, a lackluster tentative agreement with bad blood between the company and pilots.

What impact will the AC TA rates have on Porter pay rates?

Porter is non-unionized, so they have the opportunity to update their pay rates as other airlines update theirs. My comment was not in relation to the pay rates and more so pointing out that ALPA has a history of over-promising and under-delivering at WestJet, Encore, and Air Canada.

[braaap Braap]

When you're approached by a pro-ALPA guy next, remember that the Air Canada contract went exactly how the WestJet and Encore contracts went... bad blood between the company and pilots, promises of grand contracts, a lackluster tentative agreement with bad blood between the company and pilots.

So what are you suggesting? Remain unionized/unrepresented and be at the whim of the same kind of people (managers, MBAs, Executives) that keep holding you all back from getting the contracts you want?

The disappointing part is the promises of grand contracts. The posturing to try and have as much leverage as possible in negotiations just to piss it all away when things get scary. The inevitable disappointment when the numbers just don't actually work at the levels pilots want them to.

But the collective bargaining process still has power and is far better than the shifting sands that our guide is built on. We currently have protection of our flying. We rely on company lawyers and managers to help us through the TSB process when we screw up. We received 2 days notice of our Covid layoffs. We have seen good jumps in our T4s and paychecks but our working rules are constantly being eroded as AG continues to copy and paste sections of the ACPA/AC contract - You know the 20 year old one that just got an extra $1.9 billion injected into it. The continuous bulletins that come out tweaking and changing things so its impossible to understand what crew sched is allowed to do vs not. And when they do violate the rules, we have no grievance process to ensure things change. We have to rely on sending email after email after email just hoping that we get a response/acknowledgement.

Call me crazy, but is there not a way that we can enjoy the benefits and power of the collective bargaining process without astronomical expectations or cancerous bad blood between management and pilot groups?

[flyingpilot]

So any idea as to if porter will get a new payscale?

[dontcallmeshirley]

So what are you suggesting? Remain unionized/unrepresented and be at the whim of the same kind of people (managers, MBAs, Executives) that keep holding you all back from getting the contracts you want?

The disappointing part is the promises of grand contracts. The posturing to try and have as much leverage as possible in negotiations just to piss it all away when things get scary. The inevitable disappointment when the numbers just don't actually work at the levels pilots want them to.

But the collective bargaining process still has power and is far better than the shifting sands that our guide is built on. We currently have protection of our flying. We rely on company lawyers and managers to help us through the TSB process when we screw up. We received 2 days notice of our Covid layoffs. We have seen good jumps in our T4s and paychecks but our working rules are constantly being eroded as AG continues to copy and paste sections of the ACPA/AC contract - You know the 20 year old one that just got an extra $1.9 billion injected into it. The continuous bulletins that come out tweaking and changing things so its impossible to understand what crew sched is allowed to do vs not. And when they do violate the rules, we have no grievance process to ensure things change. We have to rely on sending email after email after email just hoping that we get a response/acknowledgement.

Call me crazy, but is there not a way that we can enjoy the benefits and power of the collective bargaining process without astronomical expectations or cancerous bad blood between management and pilot groups?

I appreciate that, but having come from an ALPA carrier, I can tell you that most of your complaints aren't fixed with a union. ALPA will always say "fly it and grieve it" and then will tell you that there is a two year wait for the grievance and that crew scheduling will continue to blatantly break the contractual required steps because it's not explicitly stated that doing other steps instead is not prohibited.

[braaap Braap]

So what are you suggesting? Remain unionized/unrepresented and be at the whim of the same kind of people (managers, MBAs, Executives) that keep holding you all back from getting the contracts you want?

The disappointing part is the promises of grand contracts. The posturing to try and have as much leverage as possible in negotiations just to piss it all away when things get scary. The inevitable disappointment when the numbers just don't actually work at the levels pilots want them to.

But the collective bargaining process still has power and is far better than the shifting sands that our guide is built on. We currently have protection of our flying. We rely on company lawyers and managers to help us through the TSB process when we screw up. We received 2 days notice of our Covid layoffs. We have seen good jumps in our T4s and paychecks but our working rules are constantly being eroded as AG continues to copy and paste sections of the ACPA/AC contract - You know the 20 year old one that just got an extra $1.9 billion injected into it. The continuous bulletins that come out tweaking and changing things so its impossible to understand what crew sched is allowed to do vs not. And when they do violate the rules, we have no grievance process to ensure things change. We have to rely on sending email after email after email just hoping that we get a response/acknowledgement.

Call me crazy, but is there not a way that we can enjoy the benefits and power of the collective bargaining process without astronomical expectations or cancerous bad blood between management and pilot groups?

I appreciate that, but having come from an ALPA carrier, I can tell you that most of your complaints aren't fixed with a union. ALPA will always say "fly it and grieve it" and then will tell you that there is a two year wait for the grievance and that crew scheduling will continue to blatantly break the contractual required steps because it's not explicitly stated that doing other steps instead is not prohibited.

Sure but those grievances don't just go on a shelf to collect dust (and if they do then the leadership that allows that to happen should be changed). They will eventually produce something more than our emails that get filtered to trash. As for the language thing, its a constant battle to refine and close loopholes but part of pattern bargaining is selecting the best/strongest language. Doesn't matter what our language says when its not backed up by contractual obligation.

Maybe a fatal blow to the current ALPA drive at Porter, but a pilot group represented by a bargaining unit is forever better off than a pilot group with no representation. 95-98% of Canadian pilots and vast majorities of every other skilled professionals have some form of representation. You think we have some sort of super secret special sauce here?

[cjp]

When you're approached by a pro-ALPA guy next, remember that the Air Canada contract went exactly how the WestJet and Encore contracts went... bad blood between the company and pilots, promises of grand contracts, a lackluster tentative agreement with bad blood between the company and pilots.

What impact will the AC TA rates have on Porter pay rates?

Porter is non-unionized, so they have the opportunity to update their pay rates as other airlines update theirs. My comment was not in relation to the pay rates and more so pointing out that ALPA has a history of over-promising and under-delivering at WestJet, Encore, and Air Canada.

It's the mentality of the people on the MEC. Canadian pilots have been discounted for so long, they talk about WCC but when scraps hit the floor it's every seagull for himself.

It's embarrassing and insane after all that promotion that the MEC couldn't do anything significant for the FOs. Most U.S majors start at or above 100k USD, then year 2 is north of 150k. WCC anything would've had these guys north of 100k and then onto formula.

Absolutely embarrassing all the dribble about being 'united' as they slam a wedge between FOs and Captains.

Good luck guys, I'll stick with what I've got, no union fees and decent relationship with our managers. ALPA has failed our industry because of the lack of oversight with the MEC leaders and allowing all this premature ejaculate to hit the industry. If I were any of the Delta, or United reps helping out the team I'd be getting out of dodge quick before I got tagged with this.

No way this roadshow is going to be pleasant for the MEC lol.

[PRM1]

A union is only as strong as its MEC. I for one am glad that ALPA showed its true colors once again. At the end of the day, ALPA is a business and it loves to take pilot’s dues and give little in return.

An absolutely piss poor display of collective bargaining.

[goingnowherefast]

At the end of the day, ALPA is a business and it loves to take pilot’s dues and give little in return

ALPA dues are a percentage of pay. The bigger the paychecks, the more ALPA makes. The more ALPA "gives in return", the more dues ALPA gets. ALPA is literally paid by the results they produce.

[cjp]

At the end of the day, ALPA is a business and it loves to take pilot’s dues and give little in return

ALPA dues are a percentage of pay. The bigger the paychecks, the more ALPA makes. The more ALPA "gives in return", the more dues ALPA gets. ALPA is literally paid by the results they produce.

Considering the bulk of the flight group was hired in the last 8 years with a significant portion in the last 4, it looks like ALPA AC is going to be pretty poor thanks to their lack of support of their junior members.

[dontcallmeshirley]

At the end of the day, ALPA is a business and it loves to take pilot’s dues and give little in return

ALPA dues are a percentage of pay. The bigger the paychecks, the more ALPA makes. The more ALPA "gives in return", the more dues ALPA gets. ALPA is literally paid by the results they produce.

As far as I am aware, the majority of ALPA funds come from the US.

[goingnowherefast]

At the end of the day, ALPA is a business and it loves to take pilot’s dues and give little in return

ALPA dues are a percentage of pay. The bigger the paychecks, the more ALPA makes. The more ALPA "gives in return", the more dues ALPA gets. ALPA is literally paid by the results they produce.

As far as I am aware, the majority of ALPA funds come from the US.

Well duh. That's where 90% or ALPA pilots are. They are also paid better. ALPA still wants to see Canadian pilots paid better, and able to take 1.85% of Canadian pilot's pay too.

Yes ALPA is a business, but there's no shareholders to demand returns. No fat cats wanting their multi-millionare bonuses. The ALPA BOD is airline pilots reps that are actually paid by their respective airlines, and not by ALPA. There's no drive to build shareholder value, no executive bonuses to pad. ALPA makes money by negotiating pilot raises, doesn't matter if it's United or Keewaytin.

[flyinhigh]

Yes lets stay way from unionization. Lets keep it so that TGIF AG can keep changing the rules each week. Lets not have proper protections in place when it comes to lay offs, lets keep allowing them to circumvent seniority, that all sounds splendid.

ALPA is THE PILOT GROUP.

ALPA does provide a way forward via an approved process that gives access to a grievance/arbitration process, proper CBA to which cannot be changed at their beck and call. Take a look at porterpilotsforchange.ca to see what the current drive is about, only thing they have promised is Legal, Scope and a negotiated CBA to which YOU get a say.

For the record, the difference in our Perdiems and the new AC perdiems will in fact cover the cost of your Dues you'd pay. That's how far behind we are.

[Me262]

.

For the record, the difference in our Perdiems and the new AC perdiems will in fact cover the cost of your Dues you'd pay. That's how far behind we are.

What are Porter per diems?

[flyinhigh]

$3.70 per hr for both Canada and US in only Canadian currency.

[cdnavater]

$3.70 per hr for both Canada and US in only Canadian currency.

That’s funny, Porter sees fit to charge in US currency for myidtravel bookings, which always cost me an extra 5 dollars and then if I don’t use the flight I lose 5 more on the exchange when it goes back on the card, for that reason I barely ever use them for my commute, probably intended.