New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

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PRM1
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Re: New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

Post by PRM1 »

carnie wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:24 pm Currently as it stands-flow limited to 3 a month cumulative from Q to E2 for both CAs and now FOs. Earlier in the year a number of junior FOs were able to transfer as they lifted fleet lock. Some Q CAs have bid over as FOs and have been restricted from flowing over as this is now counted under the 3 a month. Furthermore E2 FOs can potentially undercut seniority to upgrade when that program starts up. A 2022 hire can now potentially upgrade to E2 CA before a Q CA who has been on property since 2017. There is no bypass pay currently in place to compensate those who are stuck on the Q due to the the 3 a month restriction. Plus no bypass or YOS have been awarded to those left behind while they continue to hire DECs every month.
Talking out of the wrong end of your digestive system….

An 195-E2 First Officer may be upgraded to fill a 195-E2 Captain vacancy if they are the most senior applicant for the available position. If the position is awarded to an upgrading E2 FO out of seniority order for fleet or training needs, AND the bypassed pilot exceeds the 3 transfers per class commitment:

i. Years of Service will begin accruing in the E2 Captain position after 90 days of original class start date.

ii.
Be transferred to the 195-E2 at the next available opportunity.
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braaap Braap
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Re: New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

Post by braaap Braap »

PRM1 wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 6:33 pm
ii.
Be transferred to the 195-E2 at the next available opportunity.
circa 2027 after all the DECs have feathered their nests in the base of their choosing.
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PropDog
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Re: New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

Post by PropDog »

PRM1 wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 6:33 pm
carnie wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:24 pm Currently as it stands-flow limited to 3 a month cumulative from Q to E2 for both CAs and now FOs. Earlier in the year a number of junior FOs were able to transfer as they lifted fleet lock. Some Q CAs have bid over as FOs and have been restricted from flowing over as this is now counted under the 3 a month. Furthermore E2 FOs can potentially undercut seniority to upgrade when that program starts up. A 2022 hire can now potentially upgrade to E2 CA before a Q CA who has been on property since 2017. There is no bypass pay currently in place to compensate those who are stuck on the Q due to the the 3 a month restriction. Plus no bypass or YOS have been awarded to those left behind while they continue to hire DECs every month.
Talking out of the wrong end of your digestive system….

An 195-E2 First Officer may be upgraded to fill a 195-E2 Captain vacancy if they are the most senior applicant for the available position. If the position is awarded to an upgrading E2 FO out of seniority order for fleet or training needs, AND the bypassed pilot exceeds the 3 transfers per class commitment:

i. Years of Service will begin accruing in the E2 Captain position after 90 days of original class start date.

ii.
Be transferred to the 195-E2 at the next available opportunity.
If you haven’t noticed lately, open ended wording is being used to whatever management sees fit. “Next available opportunity” could be next class or in the next decade.
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Re: New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

Post by carnie »

Accruing YOS means Jack shit. Point is you are not getting paid what you are rightfully entitled to.
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

carnie wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:04 pm Accruing YOS means Jack shit. Point is you are not getting paid what you are rightfully entitled to.
They are getting paid E2 rates in the d-tip:

1. From October 2023 until Dec 2024 Porter Airlines will guarantee 3 cumulative Transition positions per class for DHC8-400 Captains to Transition to the Embraer 195-E2 as Captains at CYYZ. If a qualified Captain cannot Transition due to Fleet Limitations or their Expertise and Qualifications are required on the DHC8-400, they will be offered the Delayed Transition Incentive Program.
a. If a Pilot is not offered the Delayed Transition Incentive Program, and the Company is unable to place that Pilot in a Grounds School for the E2 within 90 days, the Pilot will be placed on Bypass pay.
b. A Pilot may request a training delay for personal reasons. If granted, their upgrade date will be delayed by the duration of the training delay. If a Pilot is already on bypass pay, the Pilot will revert to their original pay rates. If a pilot is unable to start or complete the training as scheduled for reasons of illness or injury they will be deemed to have a requested training delay for personal reasons. Once they are deemed available for training, they will be placed on the first available course that would minimize disruptions in the training footprint.
2. For any new Embraer 195-E2 bases opened in the future, one third (1⁄3) of qualified Transition Captain positions at that base will be protected for the first 6 months after the E2 base opens. Another one third (1⁄3) will be protected for the following 6 months. And so on, until all qualified Captains from that base have Transitioned.
3. First Officer positions will be offered in line with the philosophy of 8.1.1 Upgrade Procedures. A vacant or newly created First Officer position at an outstation will be required to alternate with Pilots currently at the base in question.
a. If the Crew Base does not have any First Officers or the above step has been exhausted, the positions will be offered Company wide before hiring externally.
Note: It is the intention of Porter Airlines to transition as many Pilots from the DHC8-400 Fleet to the Embraer 195-E2 Fleet as promptly as possible. Operational reliability and safe operating limitations of both Fleets need to be protected. These numbers are minimum numbers that can be sustained.
FOAG Bulletin

5.4.13 Delayed Transition Incentive Program
The Company recognizes that there is a need to retain experienced pilots (in particular, but not exclusively ACPs, LCPs, and Training Pilots) on the Dash 8-400 fleet.
The Company may request require that a Dash 8-400 pilot who is awarded an E195-E2 Captain position remain on the Dash 8-400 under the Delayed Transition Incentive Program. The Delayed Transition Incentive Program will be offered per qualification and required crew base in seniority order of those successfully awarded an E195-E2 bid., with right of refusal in seniority order. This request must be made in writing by the Company and agreed to in writing by the pilot. Should the pilot accept the offer, When a Pilot is placed on the Delayed Transition Incentive Program, the following shall apply, commencing on the day the pilot would have started E195-E2 training:
● The pilot shall be paid at the applicable E195-E2 Captain rate;
● The pilot shall begin accruing E195-E2 Captain Years of Service as if they had transferred
to the E195-E2 Captain position; and
● The pilot shall remain on the Dash 8-400 with their current (or higher) qualification(s) for
the time period agreed to by the pilot and the Company before transitioning to the E195-E2.
The Company reserves the right to accept the pilot’s E195-E2 bid at any time during the period the pilot is on the Delayed Transition Incentive Program. The pilot shall be given three months’ notice prior to the transition. Additionally, the pilot agrees to give the Company three months’ notice when the pilot wishes to transition to the E195-E2; when this occurs, the Company shall assign the pilot the next available E195- E2 transition course, even if a more senior pilot has bid for the transition spot. The course shall commence no earlier than three months from the time notice was given. Bumping a pilot who has already commenced E195-E2 transition training will not be permitted. Notice by the pilot can only be given after the start date of the class for which they accepted a Delayed Transition.

FOAG Bulletin
When the pilot transitions to an E195-E2 Captain position, they shall do so at their system seniority level. Pay rate and Captain Years of Service shall accrue normally, as if the pilot had been in the E195-E2 Captain position during the time they were on the Delayed Transition Incentive Program.
This program does not apply to Dash 8-400 pilots who are not eligible to bid for and/or hold an E195-E2 Captain position. In addition, it does not apply in the following cases:
● Dash 8-400 pilots intending to transition to an E195-E2 First Officer position;
● Dash 8-400 pilots who are unsuccessful in the transition to an E195-E2 Captain position;
● Dash 8-400 pilots who have no intention of transitioning to the E195-E2 Captain
position; and
● Dash 8-400 pilots who have not received a written request by the Company to be part of
the Delayed Transition Incentive Program.
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co-joe
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Re: New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

Post by co-joe »

CaptDukeNukem wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 12:42 pm
dogfood wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 12:37 pm I got a bold 1$ per hour raise. I hoping this attracts more pilots here so i dont have to work as hard.
Better than nothing. No one asked for a raise. The Q rates are already industry leading for the same type. Take your extra dollar and give it to Trudeau.
And Trudeau wants his money on time, or he's charging 10% interest now.
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PRM1
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Re: New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

Post by PRM1 »

PropDog wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 8:32 pm
PRM1 wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 6:33 pm
carnie wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:24 pm Currently as it stands-flow limited to 3 a month cumulative from Q to E2 for both CAs and now FOs. Earlier in the year a number of junior FOs were able to transfer as they lifted fleet lock. Some Q CAs have bid over as FOs and have been restricted from flowing over as this is now counted under the 3 a month. Furthermore E2 FOs can potentially undercut seniority to upgrade when that program starts up. A 2022 hire can now potentially upgrade to E2 CA before a Q CA who has been on property since 2017. There is no bypass pay currently in place to compensate those who are stuck on the Q due to the the 3 a month restriction. Plus no bypass or YOS have been awarded to those left behind while they continue to hire DECs every month.
Talking out of the wrong end of your digestive system….

An 195-E2 First Officer may be upgraded to fill a 195-E2 Captain vacancy if they are the most senior applicant for the available position. If the position is awarded to an upgrading E2 FO out of seniority order for fleet or training needs, AND the bypassed pilot exceeds the 3 transfers per class commitment:

i. Years of Service will begin accruing in the E2 Captain position after 90 days of original class start date.

ii.
Be transferred to the 195-E2 at the next available opportunity.
If you haven’t noticed lately, open ended wording is being used to whatever management sees fit. “Next available opportunity” could be next class or in the next decade.

What you fail to read at the end of the bulletin, after Q3 2025, all vacancies will be awarded by vacancy bid. The flow limit stops entirely.

If Porter fills the entire order of 100 planes, every dash captain that wants a seat on the E2 will have one.

And speaking to the vague open ended language, read other contracts that include bypass pay. The next available opportunity or something to that effect is common language.
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PRM1
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Re: New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

Post by PRM1 »

CaptDukeNukem wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 10:29 pm
carnie wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:04 pm Accruing YOS means Jack shit. Point is you are not getting paid what you are rightfully entitled to.
They are getting paid E2 rates in the d-tip:

1. From October 2023 until Dec 2024 Porter Airlines will guarantee 3 cumulative Transition positions per class for DHC8-400 Captains to Transition to the Embraer 195-E2 as Captains at CYYZ. If a qualified Captain cannot Transition due to Fleet Limitations or their Expertise and Qualifications are required on the DHC8-400, they will be offered the Delayed Transition Incentive Program.
a. If a Pilot is not offered the Delayed Transition Incentive Program, and the Company is unable to place that Pilot in a Grounds School for the E2 within 90 days, the Pilot will be placed on Bypass pay.
b. A Pilot may request a training delay for personal reasons. If granted, their upgrade date will be delayed by the duration of the training delay. If a Pilot is already on bypass pay, the Pilot will revert to their original pay rates. If a pilot is unable to start or complete the training as scheduled for reasons of illness or injury they will be deemed to have a requested training delay for personal reasons. Once they are deemed available for training, they will be placed on the first available course that would minimize disruptions in the training footprint.
2. For any new Embraer 195-E2 bases opened in the future, one third (1⁄3) of qualified Transition Captain positions at that base will be protected for the first 6 months after the E2 base opens. Another one third (1⁄3) will be protected for the following 6 months. And so on, until all qualified Captains from that base have Transitioned.
3. First Officer positions will be offered in line with the philosophy of 8.1.1 Upgrade Procedures. A vacant or newly created First Officer position at an outstation will be required to alternate with Pilots currently at the base in question.
a. If the Crew Base does not have any First Officers or the above step has been exhausted, the positions will be offered Company wide before hiring externally.
Note: It is the intention of Porter Airlines to transition as many Pilots from the DHC8-400 Fleet to the Embraer 195-E2 Fleet as promptly as possible. Operational reliability and safe operating limitations of both Fleets need to be protected. These numbers are minimum numbers that can be sustained.
FOAG Bulletin

5.4.13 Delayed Transition Incentive Program
The Company recognizes that there is a need to retain experienced pilots (in particular, but not exclusively ACPs, LCPs, and Training Pilots) on the Dash 8-400 fleet.
The Company may request require that a Dash 8-400 pilot who is awarded an E195-E2 Captain position remain on the Dash 8-400 under the Delayed Transition Incentive Program. The Delayed Transition Incentive Program will be offered per qualification and required crew base in seniority order of those successfully awarded an E195-E2 bid., with right of refusal in seniority order. This request must be made in writing by the Company and agreed to in writing by the pilot. Should the pilot accept the offer, When a Pilot is placed on the Delayed Transition Incentive Program, the following shall apply, commencing on the day the pilot would have started E195-E2 training:
● The pilot shall be paid at the applicable E195-E2 Captain rate;
● The pilot shall begin accruing E195-E2 Captain Years of Service as if they had transferred
to the E195-E2 Captain position; and
● The pilot shall remain on the Dash 8-400 with their current (or higher) qualification(s) for
the time period agreed to by the pilot and the Company before transitioning to the E195-E2.
The Company reserves the right to accept the pilot’s E195-E2 bid at any time during the period the pilot is on the Delayed Transition Incentive Program. The pilot shall be given three months’ notice prior to the transition. Additionally, the pilot agrees to give the Company three months’ notice when the pilot wishes to transition to the E195-E2; when this occurs, the Company shall assign the pilot the next available E195- E2 transition course, even if a more senior pilot has bid for the transition spot. The course shall commence no earlier than three months from the time notice was given. Bumping a pilot who has already commenced E195-E2 transition training will not be permitted. Notice by the pilot can only be given after the start date of the class for which they accepted a Delayed Transition.

FOAG Bulletin
When the pilot transitions to an E195-E2 Captain position, they shall do so at their system seniority level. Pay rate and Captain Years of Service shall accrue normally, as if the pilot had been in the E195-E2 Captain position during the time they were on the Delayed Transition Incentive Program.
This program does not apply to Dash 8-400 pilots who are not eligible to bid for and/or hold an E195-E2 Captain position. In addition, it does not apply in the following cases:
● Dash 8-400 pilots intending to transition to an E195-E2 First Officer position;
● Dash 8-400 pilots who are unsuccessful in the transition to an E195-E2 Captain position;
● Dash 8-400 pilots who have no intention of transitioning to the E195-E2 Captain
position; and
● Dash 8-400 pilots who have not received a written request by the Company to be part of
the Delayed Transition Incentive Program.
The illiteracy of some pilots at Porter is truly astounding.
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PropDog
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Re: New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

Post by PropDog »

PRM1 wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 5:10 am
PropDog wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 8:32 pm
PRM1 wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 6:33 pm

Talking out of the wrong end of your digestive system….

An 195-E2 First Officer may be upgraded to fill a 195-E2 Captain vacancy if they are the most senior applicant for the available position. If the position is awarded to an upgrading E2 FO out of seniority order for fleet or training needs, AND the bypassed pilot exceeds the 3 transfers per class commitment:

i. Years of Service will begin accruing in the E2 Captain position after 90 days of original class start date.

ii.
Be transferred to the 195-E2 at the next available opportunity.
If you haven’t noticed lately, open ended wording is being used to whatever management sees fit. “Next available opportunity” could be next class or in the next decade.

What you fail to read at the end of the bulletin, after Q3 2025, all vacancies will be awarded by vacancy bid. The flow limit stops entirely.

If Porter fills the entire order of 100 planes, every dash captain that wants a seat on the E2 will have one.

And speaking to the vague open ended language, read other contracts that include bypass pay. The next available opportunity or something to that effect is common language.
At the current ratio of about 6-9 direct entries per 3 transfers, assuming 6 pilots per seat per airplane, no not every dash captain will have one. We were given that line from the beginning.

I don’t fail to read anything. If you think Q3 2025 the tap opens and everyone who wants to go just goes. I have a bridge to sell you my friend.
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Last edited by PropDog on Tue Feb 20, 2024 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

Post by PropDog »

PRM1 wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 5:12 am
CaptDukeNukem wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 10:29 pm
carnie wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:04 pm Accruing YOS means Jack shit. Point is you are not getting paid what you are rightfully entitled to.
They are getting paid E2 rates in the d-tip:

1. From October 2023 until Dec 2024 Porter Airlines will guarantee 3 cumulative Transition positions per class for DHC8-400 Captains to Transition to the Embraer 195-E2 as Captains at CYYZ. If a qualified Captain cannot Transition due to Fleet Limitations or their Expertise and Qualifications are required on the DHC8-400, they will be offered the Delayed Transition Incentive Program.
a. If a Pilot is not offered the Delayed Transition Incentive Program, and the Company is unable to place that Pilot in a Grounds School for the E2 within 90 days, the Pilot will be placed on Bypass pay.
b. A Pilot may request a training delay for personal reasons. If granted, their upgrade date will be delayed by the duration of the training delay. If a Pilot is already on bypass pay, the Pilot will revert to their original pay rates. If a pilot is unable to start or complete the training as scheduled for reasons of illness or injury they will be deemed to have a requested training delay for personal reasons. Once they are deemed available for training, they will be placed on the first available course that would minimize disruptions in the training footprint.
2. For any new Embraer 195-E2 bases opened in the future, one third (1⁄3) of qualified Transition Captain positions at that base will be protected for the first 6 months after the E2 base opens. Another one third (1⁄3) will be protected for the following 6 months. And so on, until all qualified Captains from that base have Transitioned.
3. First Officer positions will be offered in line with the philosophy of 8.1.1 Upgrade Procedures. A vacant or newly created First Officer position at an outstation will be required to alternate with Pilots currently at the base in question.
a. If the Crew Base does not have any First Officers or the above step has been exhausted, the positions will be offered Company wide before hiring externally.
Note: It is the intention of Porter Airlines to transition as many Pilots from the DHC8-400 Fleet to the Embraer 195-E2 Fleet as promptly as possible. Operational reliability and safe operating limitations of both Fleets need to be protected. These numbers are minimum numbers that can be sustained.
FOAG Bulletin

5.4.13 Delayed Transition Incentive Program
The Company recognizes that there is a need to retain experienced pilots (in particular, but not exclusively ACPs, LCPs, and Training Pilots) on the Dash 8-400 fleet.
The Company may request require that a Dash 8-400 pilot who is awarded an E195-E2 Captain position remain on the Dash 8-400 under the Delayed Transition Incentive Program. The Delayed Transition Incentive Program will be offered per qualification and required crew base in seniority order of those successfully awarded an E195-E2 bid., with right of refusal in seniority order. This request must be made in writing by the Company and agreed to in writing by the pilot. Should the pilot accept the offer, When a Pilot is placed on the Delayed Transition Incentive Program, the following shall apply, commencing on the day the pilot would have started E195-E2 training:
● The pilot shall be paid at the applicable E195-E2 Captain rate;
● The pilot shall begin accruing E195-E2 Captain Years of Service as if they had transferred
to the E195-E2 Captain position; and
● The pilot shall remain on the Dash 8-400 with their current (or higher) qualification(s) for
the time period agreed to by the pilot and the Company before transitioning to the E195-E2.
The Company reserves the right to accept the pilot’s E195-E2 bid at any time during the period the pilot is on the Delayed Transition Incentive Program. The pilot shall be given three months’ notice prior to the transition. Additionally, the pilot agrees to give the Company three months’ notice when the pilot wishes to transition to the E195-E2; when this occurs, the Company shall assign the pilot the next available E195- E2 transition course, even if a more senior pilot has bid for the transition spot. The course shall commence no earlier than three months from the time notice was given. Bumping a pilot who has already commenced E195-E2 transition training will not be permitted. Notice by the pilot can only be given after the start date of the class for which they accepted a Delayed Transition.

FOAG Bulletin
When the pilot transitions to an E195-E2 Captain position, they shall do so at their system seniority level. Pay rate and Captain Years of Service shall accrue normally, as if the pilot had been in the E195-E2 Captain position during the time they were on the Delayed Transition Incentive Program.
This program does not apply to Dash 8-400 pilots who are not eligible to bid for and/or hold an E195-E2 Captain position. In addition, it does not apply in the following cases:
● Dash 8-400 pilots intending to transition to an E195-E2 First Officer position;
● Dash 8-400 pilots who are unsuccessful in the transition to an E195-E2 Captain position;
● Dash 8-400 pilots who have no intention of transitioning to the E195-E2 Captain
position; and
● Dash 8-400 pilots who have not received a written request by the Company to be part of
the Delayed Transition Incentive Program.
The illiteracy of some pilots at Porter is truly astounding.
The arrogance and naivety of some others is also quite astounding. Ad hominem is a weak stance friend.
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chephy
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Re: New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

Post by chephy »

What you fail to read at the end of the bulletin, after Q3 2025, all vacancies will be awarded by vacancy bid. The flow limit stops entirely.
Wow. You are completely misunderstanding the intent.

Three per month is not a limit. It's a minimum.

In 2025 the minimum commitment stops. There could be zero transfers after that, indefinitely.
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chephy
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Re: New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

Post by chephy »

Not to mention, management could just issue a new bulletin two weeks before the end of Q3 2025. There is literally nothing to just stop them from doing this. This is not a union-backed contract.
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

The document also states that it is the intention of the company to move all Q pilots to the E2 if they so desire.

I understand the frustration, but people are reading in between lines.
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flyinhigh
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Re: New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

Post by flyinhigh »

Hard not to read between the lines when the company interprets its own language in different ways everyday to suit their needs. If the intent was to not due this than put clear language, yet they will not do this.

May not be happening you trainers, but us lowly line guys have it happen ALL the time.

Additionally, when a company is copying and pasting language from the crap shoot ACPA contract (a la our director of crew resources knows this contract intimately), what do you think will happen.
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Re: New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

Post by Outlaw58 »

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Last edited by Outlaw58 on Thu Feb 22, 2024 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Pay Increase for DH4 Captains

Post by Outlaw58 »

PropDog wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:12 am
PRM1 wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 5:12 am
The illiteracy of some pilots at Porter is truly astounding.
The arrogance and naivety of some others is also quite astounding. Ad hominem is a weak stance friend.
Euh...Pot? Kettle?

LOL, did you do that on purpose?? Good one!

58
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