Brazil ATR 72-500 Spin/Crash

[cdnavater]

Min speed red bug in any icing scenario. Don't get below it. In a place like Brazil, where there is plenty of warmth below, make sure to descend before red bug. If ATC says NO.....ignore them and declare an emergency AFTER the descent has started.

Wouldn’t be the first time pitot tubes were blocked in severe icing, speculation of course

[pelmet]

Min speed red bug in any icing scenario. Don't get below it. In a place like Brazil, where there is plenty of warmth below, make sure to descend before red bug. If ATC says NO.....ignore them and declare an emergency AFTER the descent has started.

Wouldn’t be the first time pitot tubes were blocked in severe icing, speculation of course

Doesn’t change what I said, even if not applicable to this accident but applicable to previous incidents and accidents(and worth repeating).

[cdnavater]

Min speed red bug in any icing scenario. Don't get below it. In a place like Brazil, where there is plenty of warmth below, make sure to descend before red bug. If ATC says NO.....ignore them and declare an emergency AFTER the descent has started.

Wouldn’t be the first time pitot tubes were blocked in severe icing, speculation of course

Doesn’t change what I said, even if not applicable to this accident but applicable to previous incidents and accidents(and worth repeating).

Sure, good advice, my point was if the pitots were blocked the wouldn’t know how close they were to red bug.
With unreliable airspeed indications. All you can do is fly pitch and power, if you are loaded with ice, that may not be good enough! Again, pure speculation.

[karmutzen]

if the pitots were blocked the wouldn’t know how close they were to red bug

Lots of CVR chatter about ice, you really think they would be so brain numb not to keep the pitot heats on?

Also hard to believe they couldn't keep it above red bug, they could have dropped 10,000' without hitting anything.

And even without A/S they had GPS ground speed which is a decent approximate number.

Culture? Competence? I'm at a loss.

[cdnavater]

if the pitots were blocked the wouldn’t know how close they were to red bug

Lots of CVR chatter about ice, you really think they would be so brain numb not to keep the pitot heats on?

Also hard to believe they couldn't keep it above red bug, they could have dropped 10,000' without hitting anything.

And even without A/S they had GPS ground speed which is a decent approximate number.

Culture? Competence? I'm at a loss.

Nobody would turn off the pitot in ice, nobody, some ice can exceed the capability of the pitot heat. I’m fairly certain that’s what crashed Air France in the Ocean, well the pilots did that but the pitots caused erroneous speed and going in to third law(not an airbus guy so may not be completely accurate) leading to the crash

[pelmet]

Time to end the pitot icing distraction…..


“ Based on the information collected at the initial field Investigation, as well as recordings from the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) and Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR), the Investigation Committee identified the sequence of events preceding the aircraft’s collision with the ground. The time reference utilized is UTC (Universal Time Coordinated).

14:58:05 - the aircraft initiated takeoff from the runway 15 of SBCA, with 58 passengers and 04 crew on board;
15:12:40 - the PROPELLER ANTI-ICING 1 and 2 were turned on;
15:14:56 - the Electronic Ice Detector connected to the Centralized Crew Alert System (CCAS) emitted an alert signal upon passing FL130;
15:15:03 - the AIRFRAME DE-ICING was turned on;
15:15:42 - a single chime was heard in the cockpit. Subsequently, the crew commented on the occurrence of an AIRFRAME DE-ICING Fault, and that they would turn it off;
15:15:49 - the AIRFRAME DE-ICING was turned off;
15:16:25 - the Electronic Ice Detector ceased emitting the alert signal.
15:17:08 - the Electronic Ice Detector emitted an alert signal.
15:19:13 - the Electronic Ice Detector stopped emitting the alert signal;
15:23:43 - the Electronic Ice Detector emitted an alert signal;
15:30:05 - the Electronic Ice Detector stopped emitting the alert signal.
16:11:02 - the Electronic Ice Detector emitted an alert signal;
16:12:41 - the Electronic Ice Detector stopped emitting the alert signal;
16:12:55 - the Electronic Ice Detector emitted an alert signal;
16:15:16 - the SIC (pilot Second in Command) made radio contact with the airline's operational dispatcher at Guarulhos airport, for coordination of the aircraft arrival;
16:16:25 - At the same time of the SIC’s coordination with the operational dispatcher, a flight attendant called over the intercom. The SIC asked her to hold on moment and continued speaking with the dispatcher;
16:17:20 - the Electronic Ice Detector stopped emitting the alert signal. At this time, the SIC was asking the flight attendant for information that would be passed to the operational dispatcher;
16:17:32 - the Electronic Ice Detector emitted an alert signal; at this time, the PIC was informing the passengers about the SBGR local conditions and estimated time of landing;
16:17:41 - the AIRFRAME DE-ICING was turned on;
16:18:41 - at a speed of 191 kt., the CRUISE SPEED LOW alert was triggered. Concomitantly, the SIC was about to finish relaying some information to the operational dispatcher;
16:18:47 - the PIC started the briefing relative to the approach for landing in SBGR. Concomitantly, APP-SP made a radio call, and instructed him to change to frequency 123.25MHz;
16:18:55 – a single chime was heard in the cockpit. At this time, the communication with APP-SP was taking place;
16:19:07 - the AIRFRAME DE-ICING was turned off;
16:19:16 - the crew made a call to APP-SP (São Paulo Approach Control) on the frequency 123.25 MHz;
16:19:19 - APP-SP requested the PS-VPB aircraft to maintain FL170 due to traffic;
16:19:23 - the crew replied to APP-SP that they would maintain flight level and that they were at the ideal point of descent, waiting for clearance;
16:19:28 - at a speed of 184 kt., the DEGRADED PERFORMANCE alert was triggered, together with a single chime. The alert was triggered concomitantly with the exchange of messages between APP-SP and the crew;
16:19:30 - APP-SP acknowledged the message and requested the aircraft to wait for clearance;
16:19:31 - Passaredo 2283 aircraft reported receipt of the message and thanked ATC;
16:19:33 - the PIC resumed delivering the approach briefing;
16:20:00 - the Second in Command (SIC) commented, “a lot of icing”;
16:20:05 - the AIRFRAME DE-ICING was turned on for the third time;
16:20:33 - APP-SP cleared the aircraft to fly direct to SANPA position, maintaining FL170, and informed that the descent would be authorized in two minutes;
16:20:39 - the crew acknowledged the flight instruction received (last communication performed by the flight crew);
16:20:50 - the aircraft started a right turn in order to fly to SANPA position.
16:20:57 – during the turn, at a speed of 169 kt., the INCREASE SPEED alert was triggered, in conjunction with a single chime. Immediately afterwards, vibration noise was heard in the aircraft, simultaneously with the activation of the stall alert;
16:21:09 - control of the aircraft was lost, and it entered an abnormal flight attitude until colliding with the ground. The aircraft rolled to the left to a bank-angle of 52 degrees, and then rolled to the right to a bank-angle of 94 degrees, performing a 180-degree turn in a clockwise direction. Subsequently, the turn was reversed to an anticlockwise direction, with the aircraft completing five full rotations in a flat spin before crashing into the ground.”



It appears that they got into severe icing with a de-icing system malfunction. The severe icing procedure is an increase in minimum speed to Red Bug plus 30 knots. They stalled at red bug plus 4 knots. ATC was delaying their descent for traffic.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Time to end the pitot icing distraction…..


“ Based on the information collected at the initial field Investigation, as well as recordings from the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) and Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR), the Investigation Committee identified the sequence of events preceding the aircraft’s collision with the ground. The time reference utilized is UTC (Universal Time Coordinated).

14:58:05 - the aircraft initiated takeoff from the runway 15 of SBCA, with 58 passengers and 04 crew on board;
15:12:40 - the PROPELLER ANTI-ICING 1 and 2 were turned on;
15:14:56 - the Electronic Ice Detector connected to the Centralized Crew Alert System (CCAS) emitted an alert signal upon passing FL130;
15:15:03 - the AIRFRAME DE-ICING was turned on;
15:15:42 - a single chime was heard in the cockpit. Subsequently, the crew commented on the occurrence of an AIRFRAME DE-ICING Fault, and that they would turn it off;
15:15:49 - the AIRFRAME DE-ICING was turned off;
15:16:25 - the Electronic Ice Detector ceased emitting the alert signal.
15:17:08 - the Electronic Ice Detector emitted an alert signal.
15:19:13 - the Electronic Ice Detector stopped emitting the alert signal;
15:23:43 - the Electronic Ice Detector emitted an alert signal;
15:30:05 - the Electronic Ice Detector stopped emitting the alert signal.
16:11:02 - the Electronic Ice Detector emitted an alert signal;
16:12:41 - the Electronic Ice Detector stopped emitting the alert signal;
16:12:55 - the Electronic Ice Detector emitted an alert signal;
16:15:16 - the SIC (pilot Second in Command) made radio contact with the airline's operational dispatcher at Guarulhos airport, for coordination of the aircraft arrival;
16:16:25 - At the same time of the SIC’s coordination with the operational dispatcher, a flight attendant called over the intercom. The SIC asked her to hold on moment and continued speaking with the dispatcher;
16:17:20 - the Electronic Ice Detector stopped emitting the alert signal. At this time, the SIC was asking the flight attendant for information that would be passed to the operational dispatcher;
16:17:32 - the Electronic Ice Detector emitted an alert signal; at this time, the PIC was informing the passengers about the SBGR local conditions and estimated time of landing;
16:17:41 - the AIRFRAME DE-ICING was turned on;
16:18:41 - at a speed of 191 kt., the CRUISE SPEED LOW alert was triggered. Concomitantly, the SIC was about to finish relaying some information to the operational dispatcher;
16:18:47 - the PIC started the briefing relative to the approach for landing in SBGR. Concomitantly, APP-SP made a radio call, and instructed him to change to frequency 123.25MHz;
16:18:55 – a single chime was heard in the cockpit. At this time, the communication with APP-SP was taking place;
16:19:07 - the AIRFRAME DE-ICING was turned off;
16:19:16 - the crew made a call to APP-SP (São Paulo Approach Control) on the frequency 123.25 MHz;
16:19:19 - APP-SP requested the PS-VPB aircraft to maintain FL170 due to traffic;
16:19:23 - the crew replied to APP-SP that they would maintain flight level and that they were at the ideal point of descent, waiting for clearance;
16:19:28 - at a speed of 184 kt., the DEGRADED PERFORMANCE alert was triggered, together with a single chime. The alert was triggered concomitantly with the exchange of messages between APP-SP and the crew;
16:19:30 - APP-SP acknowledged the message and requested the aircraft to wait for clearance;
16:19:31 - Passaredo 2283 aircraft reported receipt of the message and thanked ATC;
16:19:33 - the PIC resumed delivering the approach briefing;
16:20:00 - the Second in Command (SIC) commented, “a lot of icing”;
16:20:05 - the AIRFRAME DE-ICING was turned on for the third time;
16:20:33 - APP-SP cleared the aircraft to fly direct to SANPA position, maintaining FL170, and informed that the descent would be authorized in two minutes;
16:20:39 - the crew acknowledged the flight instruction received (last communication performed by the flight crew);
16:20:50 - the aircraft started a right turn in order to fly to SANPA position.
16:20:57 – during the turn, at a speed of 169 kt., the INCREASE SPEED alert was triggered, in conjunction with a single chime. Immediately afterwards, vibration noise was heard in the aircraft, simultaneously with the activation of the stall alert;
16:21:09 - control of the aircraft was lost, and it entered an abnormal flight attitude until colliding with the ground. The aircraft rolled to the left to a bank-angle of 52 degrees, and then rolled to the right to a bank-angle of 94 degrees, performing a 180-degree turn in a clockwise direction. Subsequently, the turn was reversed to an anticlockwise direction, with the aircraft completing five full rotations in a flat spin before crashing into the ground.”



It appears that they got into severe icing with a de-icing system malfunction. The severe icing procedure is an increase in minimum speed to Red Bug plus 30 knots. They stalled at red bug plus 4 knots. ATC was delaying their descent for traffic.

Swiss cheese at it’s saddest.

TPC

[just clearing the trees]

If that transcript accurately reflects the reality of what happened, does this really qualify as Swiss cheese? Or is it just poor piloting? It's not as if the fault occurred at the worst possible time. It appears they spent over an hour popping in and out of icing with known faulty airframe deice. There's no indication that they so much as ran a checklist to address the fault. Perhaps there's significantly more to this, but based solely on that info this just sounds like terrible decision making. They were only airborne for 17 minutes when they got the fault. That should be an easy decision to return or divert. Instead they pushed on into icing for over an hour. That's not Swiss cheese, that's negligence.

[cdnavater]

If that transcript accurately reflects the reality of what happened, does this really qualify as Swiss cheese? Or is it just poor piloting? It's not as if the fault occurred at the worst possible time. It appears they spent over an hour popping in and out of icing with known faulty airframe deice. There's no indication that they so much as ran a checklist to address the fault. Perhaps there's significantly more to this, but based solely on that info this just sounds like terrible decision making. They were only airborne for 17 minutes when they got the fault. That should be an easy decision to return or divert. Instead they pushed on into icing for over an hour. That's not Swiss cheese, that's negligence.

Yah, I sure hope that is just a condensed version of the situation, no discussion apparent of the airspeed decay, there has to be more!

[Canadaflyer46]

Swiss cheese at it’s saddest.

TPC
[/quote]

I'd respectfully disagree. This was shitty, reckless pilotting. Sitting in moderate-severe icing with a known deicing fault while delaying descent. One word would have prevented this accident, "mayday".

[CaptDukeNukem]

Swiss cheese at it’s saddest.

TPC

I'd respectfully disagree. This was shitty, reckless pilotting. Sitting in moderate-severe icing with a known deicing fault while delaying descent. One word would have prevented this accident, "mayday".
[/quote]

I’m sorry. Do you fly in Brazil? I bet 85% of pilots down there have never experienced any sort of icing like this. Yes some mistakes were made in my opinion. I de-iced with an embraer pilot on the E2 once, he said it was his second time in his career ever deicing.

Westwind put one in the trees due to ice. Air Ontario put a Fokker in the trees also due to ice. A keystone pilot died waiting for a runway to be cleared while holding in ice.

There’s been numerous ice related events. That’s why you gotta watch NASA videos every year on recurrent.

Go be an armchair quarterback for Monday night football. Not slamming pilots that died.

Oh I should add…. “Respectfully”

[Canadaflyer46]

Swiss cheese at it’s saddest.

TPC

I'd respectfully disagree. This was shitty, reckless pilotting. Sitting in moderate-severe icing with a known deicing fault while delaying descent. One word would have prevented this accident, "mayday".

I’m sorry. Do you fly in Brazil? I bet 85% of pilots down there have never experienced any sort of icing like this. Yes some mistakes were made in my opinion. I de-iced with an embraer pilot on the E2 once, he said it was his second time in his career ever deicing.

Westwind put one in the trees due to ice. Air Ontario put a Fokker in the trees also due to ice. A keystone pilot died waiting for a runway to be cleared while holding in ice.

There’s been numerous ice related events. That’s why you gotta watch NASA videos every year on recurrent.

Go be an armchair quarterback for Monday night football. Not slamming pilots that died.

Oh I should add…. “Respectfully”
[/quote]

"Slamming"?. Did you read the minute-by-minute account posted above? They sat there and watched the plane stall while talking about the ice they were picking up. Doesn't matter what part of the world you're flying in, when your speed is down at the red bug you're gonna fall out of the sky. They likely have never deiced you're right, but I guarantee they've see some nasty inflight icing flying through the many TCUs in their region. Every ATR pilot is well aware of the dangers of icing on that type.

[pelmet]

I’m sorry. Do you fly in Brazil? I bet 85% of pilots down there have never experienced any sort of icing like this. Yes some mistakes were made in my opinion. I de-iced with an embraer pilot on the E2 once, he said it was his second time in his career ever deicing.

Westwind put one in the trees due to ice. Air Ontario put a Fokker in the trees also due to ice. A keystone pilot died waiting for a runway to be cleared while holding in ice.

You are mixing up ground/low level icing with in-flight icing in cruise.

We have now had ATR icing related crashes from cruise in Brazil, Taiwan, and Cuba. All tropical locations. I suspect that all these locations have icing up in the twenty thousand foot range. I would suspect that if your E2 pilot had any significant amount of experience, he has encountered icing enroute in his previous work locations.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Swiss cheese at it’s saddest.

TPC

I'd respectfully disagree. This was shitty, reckless pilotting. Sitting in moderate-severe icing with a known deicing fault while delaying descent. One word would have prevented this accident, "mayday".

I’m sorry. Do you fly in Brazil? I bet 85% of pilots down there have never experienced any sort of icing like this. Yes some mistakes were made in my opinion. I de-iced with an embraer pilot on the E2 once, he said it was his second time in his career ever deicing.

Westwind put one in the trees due to ice. Air Ontario put a Fokker in the trees also due to ice. A keystone pilot died waiting for a runway to be cleared while holding in ice.

There’s been numerous ice related events. That’s why you gotta watch NASA videos every year on recurrent.

Go be an armchair quarterback for Monday night football. Not slamming pilots that died.

Oh I should add…. “Respectfully”

As a matter of fact, I did, Twice a week, with multi stops into São Paulo and Brasília until not that long ago…

The ITCZ ain’t nothing to be messed with either. She’s a cruel bitch that needs to be heeded to.

-Respectfully (again)

TPC