When Alberta separate, will it keep Canadian licensing or go the FAA route?

[7ECA]

For the "vocal minority" of Albertans that want to become American, just up and move to the US.

As for tearing apart Confederation, and the bizarre notion that it would be a "done deal" as per this poster and other talking wing nuts on the internet, good riddance. Take Danielle with you, though.

This is little more than posturing from the Smith government, who knows she doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of seceding from Canada, but wants to sabre rattle to satisfy her neo-con base lest she be removed at the next leadership review. It's also a distraction from all of the scandals erupting in Alberta to throw people off the scent of the corruption, graft and stupidity that has been brought to light of late. This from the same party that stomped on the Coal Policy, brought it back, stomped on it again - and wonders why ranchers and rural Albertans are upset about the risk to their watersheds...

[goingnowherefast]

If Alberta separates, do you think the rest of Canada will be more likely to help them get the oil to market?

Carney and the libs are talking about pipelines to HELP Alberta and Canada. A pretty quick way to make them not care anymore is to separate.

Alberta is conservative and mad they lost the election.
Maybe the Conservatives can get a better leader and a better platform for the next election. Frankly, campaigning on "Justin sucks" and "Axe the tax" was pretty weak. Even Justin knew he sucked, that's why he resigned. Makes for a pretty weak platform. Carney neutered the Conservative's platform by removing the carbon tax. Maybe campaign on why the Conservatives are better might work better than campaigning on why the Liberals suck.

Im generally a conservative voter, but come on. That campaign sucked. I'm surprised the Conservative's did as well as they did.

[altiplano]

Why would Albertans up and move from their homes?

Are Quebecers told to pick up and move to France?

The rest of Canada certainly isn't entitled to Alberta more than the Albertans that are there today.

Canada chose the term "Confederation" when it became self governing under the BNA as opposed to "Federation" in order to highlight the that it was a union of independently governing provinces and territories. While under a Federal system, Canada was formed as one of the most decentralized federations in the world with the control of most affairs under the jurisdiction of the provinces themselves. Federal authority was always to be limited.

Unfortunately that limited authority has been changing as the Federal government and particularly the Liberal government inserts itself deeper into affairs that it should have no business being involved in. They use their Federally appointed bureaucrats and judiciary to aid in expanding their power.

The Canadian Federal Government should have the least involvement in the day to day lives of Canadians, the focus should be on military, foreign policy, national infrastructure, currency... and little else. But instead they are inserted in just about every corner of this countries business at this point.

That wasn't the vision of the Father's of Confederation.

Confederation: political union of sovereign states united for purposes of common action

[altiplano]

If Alberta separates, do you think the rest of Canada will be more likely to help them get the oil to market?

Carney and the libs are talking about pipelines to HELP Alberta and Canada. A pretty quick way to make them not care anymore is to separate.

Alberta is conservative and mad they lost the election.
Maybe the Conservatives can get a better leader and a better platform for the next election. Frankly, campaigning on "Justin sucks" and "Axe the tax" was pretty weak. Even Justin knew he sucked, that's why he resigned. Makes for a pretty weak platform. Carney neutered the Conservative's platform by removing the carbon tax. Maybe campaign on why the Conservatives are better might work better than campaigning on why the Liberals suck.

Im generally a conservative voter, but come on. That campaign sucked. I'm surprised the Conservative's did as well as they did.

Your comments reveal that you're uninformed.

Liberals sold fear and associated conservatism to Trump and offered a platform with nothing else. Just a rush to ride a Carney honeymoon before Canadians actually came to learn about what he has done and plans to do against their interests.

If Alberta goes it will be just the start...

The Americans will support them in their startup and build more pipelines even if they remain as an independent country. They will thrive.

Saskatchewan won't be far behind, BC outside of the Lower Mainland will say why bother when it becomes the only remaining "Have" province. The Peace region at least will join Alberta. Maybe Vancouver will be a city state like Singapore... the rest of the province will go.

Meanwhile Newfoundland will probably see if the Brits will take them back...

This is just the first domino...

Worst performance in the OECD by far since 2015 and worst forecast through 2040.

The Federal governments own reports are calling for a dystopian society with loss of vertical social mobility, increased stratification of classes, lower standards of living, food shortages... the report went so far to predict people will be forced to rely on posching wildlife to feed themselves.

Why would anyone choose to stay on?

Canadians are clueless. They failed the national IQ test last Monday. Unless there are big changes very very soon this country will have gone from being one of the best countries in the world to a failed state in less than 20 years.

[newlygrounded]

If Alberta separates, do you think the rest of Canada will be more likely to help them get the oil to market?

Carney and the libs are talking about pipelines to HELP Alberta and Canada. A pretty quick way to make them not care anymore is to separate.

Alberta is conservative and mad they lost the election.
Maybe the Conservatives can get a better leader and a better platform for the next election. Frankly, campaigning on "Justin sucks" and "Axe the tax" was pretty weak. Even Justin knew he sucked, that's why he resigned. Makes for a pretty weak platform. Carney neutered the Conservative's platform by removing the carbon tax. Maybe campaign on why the Conservatives are better might work better than campaigning on why the Liberals suck.

Im generally a conservative voter, but come on. That campaign sucked. I'm surprised the Conservative's did as well as they did.

Your comments reveal that you're uninformed.

Liberals sold fear and associated conservatism to Trump and offered a platform with nothing else. Just a rush to ride a Carney honeymoon before Canadians actually came to learn about what he has done and plans to do against their interests.

If Alberta goes it will be just the start...

The Americans will support them in their startup and build more pipelines even if they remain as an independent country. They will thrive.

Saskatchewan won't be far behind, BC outside of the Lower Mainland will say why bother when it becomes the only remaining "Have" province. The Peace region at least will join Alberta. Maybe Vancouver will be a city state like Singapore... the rest of the province will go.

Meanwhile Newfoundland will probably see if the Brits will take them back...

This is just the first domino...

Worst performance in the OECD by far since 2015 and worst forecast through 2040.

The Federal governments own reports are calling for a dystopian society with loss of vertical social mobility, increased stratification of classes, lower standards of living, food shortages... the report went so far to predict people will be forced to rely on posching wildlife to feed themselves.

Why would anyone choose to stay on?

Canadians are clueless. They failed the national IQ test last Monday. Unless there are big changes very very soon this country will have gone from being one of the best countries in the world to a failed state in less than 20 years.

Speaking of fear based choices https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog ... -attitudes

[itsgrosswhatinet]

For the "vocal minority" of Albertans that want to become American, just up and move to the US.

I've never understood this argument. Many of my colleagues have been trying to do just that for years with very limited success getting a visa.

Hard skills are completely undervalued in liberal societies like Canada, and soft skills are overvalued. If Alberta secedes you will likely see these hard skill professionals flocking there to double their incomes in the American economy, which values these people much more. Even doctors could be considered hard skills as they operate in the real world.

[JBI]

Who's Albert?

What's succession? Everyone makes grammatical errors, even lawyer types. In my experience, if pilots made as many small mistakes as lawyers there would be a lot of aircraft off the end of runways.

Lawyer types do make grammatical errors; I've made many.

The OP is definitely not a lawyer type.

[aviran9111]

Who's Albert?

What's succession? Everyone makes grammatical errors, even lawyer types. In my experience, if pilots made as many small mistakes as lawyers there would be a lot of aircraft off the end of runways.

Lawyer types do make grammatical errors; I've made many.

The OP is definitely not a lawyer type.

I'm not, and never said I am, what I did was quoting a lawyer, meaning he used those words.

[Dry Guy]

Even if this doesn't happen all we have to do is wait for father time. It seems like most people over 50 have no personal principles other than what the CBC or other liberal legacy media tells them to think. The younger generations have been "radicalized" into having some critical thinking skills.

Conservative youth.png (26.44 KiB) Viewed 5144 times

[‘Bob’]

All PP had to do was isolate himself from Trump and his rhetoric and the “anti-woke” agenda to win this election. Basically, copy Doug Ford.

But he was too fucking stupid. So are his Maple MAGA followers.

Alberta will never separate. None of the indigenous peoples want to and those are actual signed treaties that govern that. Most of the silent majority don’t want to. It’s like Quebec but somehow worse. Whining for attention.

And you really think Americans want dirty oil and cheap labour? They just got rid of a bunch and latter and the former is hitting rock bottom with increasing supply. Music is stopping down there, too.

Pipe dream.

[aviran9111]

All PP had to do was isolate himself from Trump and his rhetoric and the “anti-woke” agenda to win this election. Basically, copy Doug Ford.

But he was too fucking stupid. So are his Maple MAGA followers.

Alberta will never separate. None of the indigenous peoples want to and those are actual signed treaties that govern that. Most of the silent majority don’t want to. It’s like Quebec but somehow worse. Whining for attention.

And you really think Americans want dirty oil and cheap labour? They just got rid of a bunch and latter and the former is hitting rock bottom with increasing supply. Music is stopping down there, too.

Pipe dream.

This indigenous people crap again. Under the Supreme Court of Canada case, following Quebec's attempt for succession, they get no special treatment. They will have to seat down and talk, and yes, potentially lose their special treatment and exemption as the new entity has no agreement with them, and may not want an agreement with them. Or they can stay under Ottawa, being taxed and custom on every good going in and out of their province, with border patrol on their entrance. Or they can grow up and seat in around the table like all the other provinces and federal government will have to do.

Pierre was real, he was NOT a MAGA, not even close. Why do you think Trump wanted Carney?! all of this loser's asset are under Trump's control, which mean, in a way, like before, Trump got Canada by the balls. Pierre was great, the people are dumb, panicky stupid mob, that elected Carney for the same reason the people elected Hitler - out of fear, fear of something they can NOT do a thing about, in a false hope that they can. Just like Hitler, Carney sold a bs dream that will never come true, but the people don't care about it. If you ask them about his election campaign, they only know about one topic - Trump.

And lastly, Trump will 100% want Alberta's oil. His whole slogan was "Drill, baby drill".

P.S. Calling Albertans whining for attention is exactly why they will separate. People in this country only listen when they actually lose or die, so it's either the election way or the terrorism way, like Quebec attempted. Also, calling it worst, despite the fact terrorism wasn't used?! Tell's us anything we need to know about you.

[tsgarp]

Even if this doesn't happen all we have to do is wait for father time. It seems like most people over 50 have no personal principles other than what the CBC or other liberal legacy media tells them to think. The younger generations have been "radicalized" into having some critical thinking skills.

Conservative youth.png

I’m over 50 and I apologize for my age cohort…I really cannot understand why they would vote for the party that is backed by the WEF, the Chinese Communist Party and was endorsed by Trump (the very person they say they hate). Some people are just stupid.

[newlygrounded]

Even if this doesn't happen all we have to do is wait for father time. It seems like most people over 50 have no personal principles other than what the CBC or other liberal legacy media tells them to think. The younger generations have been "radicalized" into having some critical thinking skills.

Conservative youth.png

I’m over 50 and I apologize for my age cohort…I really cannot understand why they would vote for the party that is backed by the WEF, the Chinese Communist Party and was endorsed by Trump (the very person they say they hate). Some people are just stupid.

Can you let us know how PP's housing plan would work in reality? Or his "fix" for the homeless?

[Dry Guy]

I’m over 50 and I apologize for my age cohort…

Thanks. We'll try not to eat you or leave you to die in an ER waiting room staffed by new Canadians on their phones.

[digits_]

A few general remarks:
- don't assume people are strongly red or blue. A lot of people are in the middle and could vote either way. Or don't care. Very vocal obnoxious voices on either side will drive the moderate center to the other camp
- those people like to know what a party's main points are
- if those go on your website a month before the election to try and find your plan and they have to fill out a survey and a "we'll let you know what we stand for" afterwards, then it's no surprise they'll choose another party
- a de facto 2 party system sucks

[Jean-Pierre]

While I agree the Conservative's campaign was embarrassingly bad this thread is about Alberta secession not the Federal Election.

[JBI]

This indigenous people crap again. Under the Supreme Court of Canada case, following Quebec's attempt for succession, they get no special treatment. They will have to seat down and talk, and yes, potentially lose their special treatment and exemption as the new entity has no agreement with them, and may not want an agreement with them. Or they can stay under Ottawa, being taxed and custom on every good going in and out of their province, with border patrol on their entrance. Or they can grow up and seat in around the table like all the other provinces and federal government will have to do.

This is not a correct summary of the Reference re Secession of Quebec, 1998 CanLII 793 (SCC), [1998] 2 SCR 217 with respect to how indigenous peoples are to be considered. Have a read https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/19 ... ii793.html

Also a very basic summary of the current law can be found at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference ... _of_Quebec

These links are just easy reading and I haven't linked any more detailed case commentaries from legal scholars on the issue.

If there is a clear majority (not just 50%+1) then all interested parties need to negotiate including Indigenous people

Now, here are a couple keys take aways from the Supreme Court's Decision:

A duty to negotiate does NOT mean that a successful agreement must be reached (though the parties are required to negotiate based on the principles outlined in the constitution).

The current provincial boundaries may NOT automatically mean that a province wanting to secede would keep the same boundaries - this is where indigenous peoples in Alberta would have some key leverage if they wanted to remain in Canada. The geography of votes in Alberta of non-indigenous persons could also be taken into consideration - are there any areas/towns where it's clear the residents are not interested in separating also play a key role.

If a negotiated agreement for separation was actually reached, the Constitution of Canada would need to be amended. That process cannot be done by just one province, so in theory, 7 of the other provinces consisting of more than 50% of the population' would have to approve the negotiated agreement for secession.

This post is less directed at the OP and more at "part-time listeners" who may not be familiar with the process.

[tsgarp]

Can you let us know how PP's housing plan would work in reality? Or his "fix" for the homeless?

Significantly better than importing 2 million new people to house and hiking taxes on everyone and everything.

[Inverted2]

Of course the indigenouses don’t want to separate. Do you think Trump or any other country that is formed would continue to allow all the free handouts? Doubtful.

[altiplano]

This indigenous people crap again. Under the Supreme Court of Canada case, following Quebec's attempt for succession, they get no special treatment. They will have to seat down and talk, and yes, potentially lose their special treatment and exemption as the new entity has no agreement with them, and may not want an agreement with them. Or they can stay under Ottawa, being taxed and custom on every good going in and out of their province, with border patrol on their entrance. Or they can grow up and seat in around the table like all the other provinces and federal government will have to do.

This is not a correct summary of the Reference re Secession of Quebec, 1998 CanLII 793 (SCC), [1998] 2 SCR 217 with respect to how indigenous peoples are to be considered. Have a read https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/19 ... ii793.html

Also a very basic summary of the current law can be found at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference ... _of_Quebec

These links are just easy reading and I haven't linked any more detailed case commentaries from legal scholars on the issue.

If there is a clear majority (not just 50%+1) then all interested parties need to negotiate including Indigenous people

Now, here are a couple keys take aways from the Supreme Court's Decision:

A duty to negotiate does NOT mean that a successful agreement must be reached (though the parties are required to negotiate based on the principles outlined in the constitution).

The current provincial boundaries may NOT automatically mean that a province wanting to secede would keep the same boundaries - this is where indigenous peoples in Alberta would have some key leverage if they wanted to remain in Canada. The geography of votes in Alberta of non-indigenous persons could also be taken into consideration - are there any areas/towns where it's clear the residents are not interested in separating also play a key role.

If a negotiated agreement for separation was actually reached, the Constitution of Canada would need to be amended. That process cannot be done by just one province, so in theory, 7 of the other provinces consisting of more than 50% of the population' would have to approve the negotiated agreement for secession.

This post is less directed at the OP and more at "part-time listeners" who may not be familiar with the process.

You're making the assumption that Canadian law/courts/constitution would be recognized by all parties at that point. Were there a successful secession referendum, I would suggest that the newly seceded jurisdiction would only go so far in placating the Canada kangaroo legal system. Of course 7/10 provinces will never agree to a constitutional amendment around this... More than half the provinces get transfer payments from the West, most of them have disproportionate representation Federally relevant the West. They will never let that go.

Alberta, even as an independently governed state, would be backed by the Americans, who don't think very highly of Canadian commie values and anti-Liberty policies these days, the Americans value Freedom and believe in Revolution. Ultimately Alberta would just walk at some point in the process and there is fûck all the rest of Canada could and would do about it beyond crying in their cereal.

Canada was a fragile idea that needed to be nurtured and supported and the fact is that the West has been taken for granted and mistreated by Central and Eastern Canada and the Liberal party. Carney is incapable of dealing with this and has done nothing since taking office to ease the matter. The first domino has been set... if it goes more will follow.

[newlygrounded]

Can you let us know how PP's housing plan would work in reality? Or his "fix" for the homeless?

Significantly better than importing 2 million new people to house and hiking taxes on everyone and everything.

Ah so deflecting, nice! Thanks for admitting you don't have any answers.

Of course the indigenouses don’t want to separate. Do you think Trump or any other country that is formed would continue to allow all the free handouts? Doubtful.

What happened to rule of law? 90% of the "handouts" are the government giving them things that were agreed to in the treaties.

[JBI]

You're making the assumption that Canadian law/courts/constitution would be recognized by all parties at that point. Were there a successful secession referendum, I would suggest that the newly seceded jurisdiction would only go so far in placating the Canada kangaroo legal system. Of course 7/10 provinces will never agree to a constitutional amendment around this... More than half the provinces get transfer payments from the West, most of them have disproportionate representation Federally relevant the West. They will never let that go.

Alberta, even as an independently governed state, would be backed by the Americans, who don't think very highly of Canadian commie values and anti-Liberty policies these days, the Americans value Freedom and believe in Revolution. Ultimately Alberta would just walk at some point in the process and there is fûck all the rest of Canada could and would do about it beyond crying in their cereal.

Canada was a fragile idea that needed to be nurtured and supported and the fact is that the West has been taken for granted and mistreated by Central and Eastern Canada and the Liberal party. Carney is incapable of dealing with this and has done nothing since taking office to ease the matter. The first domino has been set... if it goes more will follow.

You are correct in that I am making the assumption that the rule of law would be followed, but so is this thread: if the rule of law isn't followed there won't be "Canadian Licensing or go the FAA route" in Alberta. IF there were an illegal secession, do you think the rest of the Canada or the world would recognize pilot's licences from the Republic of Alberta?

While I'm not arguing in favour of the current calculation of Equalization Payments, it's important to note that no provinces get "transfer payments from the West". All Canadians pay their taxes into the Federal Pot and then through the Equalization Payments formula, Ottawa provides additional funds to the "have not" provinces that qualify.

Yes, I'd argue it's unfair, but the process is key. The CRA collects all your taxes, both federal and provincial on behalf of the provinces. They also operate the RCMP, 7 military bases in Alberta, own the land that airports are on and own a significant number of National Parks. Again, if there were a secession that didn't follow the rule of law, there seems to be a lot more that the Federal Government could do instead of crying in their cereal.

[altiplano]

I thought we had digressed...

But whose law? You're thinking statically.

Canada is becoming increasingly and rapidly irrelevant in the world. Maybe you would be surprised by the friends that Alberta would have on it's side. Oil and energy rich states tend to have that.

I'm sure in 1776 British Law or what that crown asserted that it owned no longer mattered in the new republic that was created by the American founding fathers..

Just as in 1792 the declarations of the Monarchy ceased to have any meaning in the First Republic in France.

Yeah... crying in their cereal with a whole other suite of problems.

We all know equalization payments are transfer payments from the West... put all the lipstick on it you want, it doesn't change the fact that the money comes from somewhere.

7/10 provinces had better get really real and really quick and agree to open up the Constitution or its all going to fall apart.

The idea that the Maritimes have 1/3 more senators than the West but 1/6 the population? Parliamentary representation doesn't fare much better either.

Then you have the inequities and discrimination of the West in the public sector. Aside from transfer payments how much Western money funds those high paid jobs disproportionately located in Central and Eastern Canada?

If Canada and Canadians aren't prepared to adapt this country is doomed to failure. So far it appears they don't even recognize that there's a serious problem.

[newlygrounded]

I thought we had digressed...

But whose law? You're thinking statically.

Canada is becoming increasingly and rapidly irrelevant in the world. Maybe you would be surprised by the friends that Alberta would have on it's side. Oil and energy rich states tend to have that.

I'm sure in 1776 British Law or what that crown asserted that it owned no longer mattered in the new republic that was created by the American founding fathers..

Just as in 1792 the declarations of the Monarchy ceased to have any meaning in the First Republic in France.

Yeah... crying in their cereal with a whole other suite of problems.

We all know equalization payments are transfer payments from the West... put all the lipstick on it you want, it doesn't change the fact that the money comes from somewhere.

7/10 provinces had better get really real and really quick and agree to open up the Constitution or its all going to fall apart.

The idea that the Maritimes have 1/3 more senators than the West but 1/6 the population? Parliamentary representation doesn't fare much better either.

Then you have the inequities and discrimination of the West in the public sector. Aside from transfer payments how much Western money funds those high paid jobs disproportionately located in Central and Eastern Canada?

If Canada and Canadians aren't prepared to adapt this country is doomed to failure. So far it appears they don't even recognize that there's a serious problem.

Oil isn't going to be a long term financial boom, even if every province was cool with pipelines (but would be on their own for spills) who would fund them? It's funny you talk about adapting but have a 1950's mindset when it comes to the economy. A separate Alberta wouldn't do much better.

Lets say the natives are cool with you taking their land, the government gives up the oil in the ground, how is it getting to the market outside the US? Who says Trump will play fair?

[Dias]

Again, if there were a secession that didn't follow the rule of law, there seems to be a lot more that the Federal Government could do instead of crying in their cereal.

Unless you mean military action I don't think there is. People that have never lived outside the First World don't seem to realize every society is controlled by violence, or the threat of violence. If you do mean military action I really don't think Canada is stupid enough to take on the United States in armed conflict.