Cat, I fully agree with your logical approach to flight training and teaching seaplane skills.
Further, based on your attitude and approach toward teaching skills, I would be honoured to do an Instructor Rating ride with you and based on all your previous experience you could be confident of qualifying for at least a Class 3 rating.
Float Rating
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore
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TC Aviator
- Rank 1
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- Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:17 am
- Location: Canada
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
TC Aviator, thanks for the kind comments.
Unfortunately I have come to the conclusion that I can do more for aviation outside the FTU OC arena.
At one time I did operate a FTU both fixed and rotary wing and eventually got out because it just was more pain than pleasure trying to keep things going.
And that was before CARS's and working with the advantage of having people in TC that understood the industry and could use some common sense in their day to day interaction with us their clients.
Anyhow I am now at the end of six months away from aviation and have had time to readjust my life style from commuting over seas to work to just dog fu.king around on an extended holiday.
I plan on around another ten years of active involvement in flight training using non certified airplanes and only instructing in the areas that do not require a renewal of my long lapsed Class two.
I am still thinking that maybe I can keep beating the sh.t out of my body doing unlimited aerobatics for fun....but first things first so I'm off to Barkley Sound tomorrow to pull my sail boat out of the water and move it back to Nanaimo for the winter.
Cat
Unfortunately I have come to the conclusion that I can do more for aviation outside the FTU OC arena.
At one time I did operate a FTU both fixed and rotary wing and eventually got out because it just was more pain than pleasure trying to keep things going.
And that was before CARS's and working with the advantage of having people in TC that understood the industry and could use some common sense in their day to day interaction with us their clients.
Anyhow I am now at the end of six months away from aviation and have had time to readjust my life style from commuting over seas to work to just dog fu.king around on an extended holiday.
I plan on around another ten years of active involvement in flight training using non certified airplanes and only instructing in the areas that do not require a renewal of my long lapsed Class two.
I am still thinking that maybe I can keep beating the sh.t out of my body doing unlimited aerobatics for fun....but first things first so I'm off to Barkley Sound tomorrow to pull my sail boat out of the water and move it back to Nanaimo for the winter.
Cat
Last edited by Cat Driver on Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
TC Aviator, thanks for the kind comments.
Unfortunately I have come to the conclusion that I can do more for aviation outside the FTU OC arena.
At one time I did operate a FTU both fixed and rotary wing and eventually got out because it just was more pain than pleasure tring to keep things going.
And that was before CARS's and working with the advantage of having people in TC that understood the industry and could use some common sense in their day to day interaction with us their clients.
Anyhow I am now at the end of six months away from aviation and have had time to readjust my life style from commuting over seas to work to just dog fu.king around on an extended holiday.
I plan on around another ten years of active involvement in flight training using non certified airplanes and only instructing in the areas that do not require a renewal of my long lapsed Class two.
I' am still thinking that maybe I can keep beating the sh.t out of my body doing unlimited aerobatics for fun....but first things first so I'm off to Barkley Sound tomorrow to pull my sail boat out of the water and move it back to Nanaimo for the winter.
Cat
Unfortunately I have come to the conclusion that I can do more for aviation outside the FTU OC arena.
At one time I did operate a FTU both fixed and rotary wing and eventually got out because it just was more pain than pleasure tring to keep things going.
And that was before CARS's and working with the advantage of having people in TC that understood the industry and could use some common sense in their day to day interaction with us their clients.
Anyhow I am now at the end of six months away from aviation and have had time to readjust my life style from commuting over seas to work to just dog fu.king around on an extended holiday.
I plan on around another ten years of active involvement in flight training using non certified airplanes and only instructing in the areas that do not require a renewal of my long lapsed Class two.
I' am still thinking that maybe I can keep beating the sh.t out of my body doing unlimited aerobatics for fun....but first things first so I'm off to Barkley Sound tomorrow to pull my sail boat out of the water and move it back to Nanaimo for the winter.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
.: I understand you have an expired instructor rating (not sure what class). I happen to hold a class 1 instructor rating. Anytime that you can find the time to visit, I will gladly to spend the required time on the ground and in the air, and to recommend you to write and fly the tests, to get your instructor rating back.
I know it's not a lot of fun, but all the various bits of paper can come in handy down the road and I find it vaguely ridiculous that someone of your experience (used to run a flight school, PBY training, etc) doesn't have an instructor's rating.
I know it's not a lot of fun, but all the various bits of paper can come in handy down the road and I find it vaguely ridiculous that someone of your experience (used to run a flight school, PBY training, etc) doesn't have an instructor's rating.
Hey cat driver,
All i can say is that Air-Hart was a good company that put alot of effort into finding the conditions (glassy to rough water and everything inbetween) for thier students. They were efficient and from what i saw did not try to take advantage of students in anyway, unlike many other operators. 7 is the TC minimum...i agree thats not near enough to learn everything about flying floats. But then again, is 200 sufficient to fly for an airline?
You make it sound like everyone that wants to do a float rating should know it ALL. Pull your head out.
All i can say is that Air-Hart was a good company that put alot of effort into finding the conditions (glassy to rough water and everything inbetween) for thier students. They were efficient and from what i saw did not try to take advantage of students in anyway, unlike many other operators. 7 is the TC minimum...i agree thats not near enough to learn everything about flying floats. But then again, is 200 sufficient to fly for an airline?
You make it sound like everyone that wants to do a float rating should know it ALL. Pull your head out.
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canpilot
- Rank 7
- Posts: 522
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:08 am
- Location: Richmond B.C. Canada
- Contact:
Talk to Dave Hamel at Fort Langley Air. I did my training there. All I can say is GREAT GUY and more importantly, excellent training. ( he's been flying floats longer than i've been living)
http://www.fortlangleyair.ca
PM me if you have any questions..
GOOD LUCK!
CANPILOT!!
http://www.fortlangleyair.ca
PM me if you have any questions..
GOOD LUCK!
CANPILOT!!
Cat,Cat Driver wrote: I know there is no way that I would pass a ride for the class 4 instructor rating, and one of the reasons would be I would not satisfy a TC inspector that I could regurtate all that pablum in their version of how to teach.
So how come I manage to teach people how to fly?
Cat
I don't think you'll have much trouble regurgitating TCs guidance on how to teach float flying. They don't seem to have any! The FAA has a short precis available online but, in Canada, we find our own references. Hell, nobody at TC can tell me what I have to carry in a seaplane, in addition to the landplane requirements, in case I get ramp checked!
As far as your idea that a pilot should get 15 hours dual prior to getting a float rating, I challenge the float instructors out there to let us know who's getting in trouble out there and driving up my insurance. I have read a few incident reports concerning people with no rating or with very low float hours but the vast majority of the incidents I read about concern guys who have hundreds, or thousands, of hours and have gotten complacent. That's when things normally bite you! Most guys with 7 hours know they just have a license to learn and they pick their challenges carefully. Would you take this to mean that we would be safer if TC designated a maximum number of float hours you could fly before requiring recurrent training? So, what about it float instructors, how many of your recent students end up wet as compared to how many of the old, experienced guys with tons of hours?
I would also suggest that the float instructors lurking out there (spafloats, Airtids etc. I'm talking to you!) can also tell you that the biggest hurdle most pilots face in getting a float rating is the cost. Doubling the hours required would drive the schools out of business for lack of students!
As far as TC introducing a dual-rating system, I'll have take my computer into the shop as it is obviously infected with a really strange virus - Cat Driver advocating that TC be given more power and be more deeply involved in regulating flying instruction? What next; Haz and Desky go to the prom together?
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you!
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mellow_pilot
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2119
- Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:04 am
- Location: Pilot Purgatory
Float Training
Hi Blakey!
As I have been (justly!) of being a "lurker" (I`ve been called worse?!) I`ll give my two cents worth.
The 7 hours that T.C. requires is simply a licence to learn. The insurance companies generally want a lot more training if you want to fly a floatplane with hull insurance.The float training operations face a different problem in that they must send the student solo for 5 take-offs and landings in an airplane that generally has a high deductible in it and they are sending someone solo with very low experience level. The float instructor who often has an equity interest in the aircraft/operation is really being forced to "walk the walk" when they send the student off on their own and trust that they will bring the airplane back unbent.
In terms of hull insurance it is interesting to note that in my experience a commercial operator of a 703 operation using a C-180 would pay hull insurance in the 5.5-6.5% range if they weren`t doing float training and in the 9.0-10% range if they do float training with solo. Multiply that percentage by the value of the aircraft and divide the resulting premium by the number of hours the airplane is flown annually and the hourly insurance input is shocking to most people.
I will illustrate the issue with a recent example of private pilot who recently bought a C-180 floatplane and did not have a float rating. His insurance company (he isn`t one of my insurance clients) asked for 50 hours training in order to meet their insurability requirements. The owner is are now a little more than halfway through and is doing very well, but on the last flight we did, on our way back to the the base he commented that he was just starting to feel comfortable and confident and that at 7 hours there is no way that he felt anywhere near proficient.
I think their comment is telling.
Spafloats
As I have been (justly!) of being a "lurker" (I`ve been called worse?!) I`ll give my two cents worth.
The 7 hours that T.C. requires is simply a licence to learn. The insurance companies generally want a lot more training if you want to fly a floatplane with hull insurance.The float training operations face a different problem in that they must send the student solo for 5 take-offs and landings in an airplane that generally has a high deductible in it and they are sending someone solo with very low experience level. The float instructor who often has an equity interest in the aircraft/operation is really being forced to "walk the walk" when they send the student off on their own and trust that they will bring the airplane back unbent.
In terms of hull insurance it is interesting to note that in my experience a commercial operator of a 703 operation using a C-180 would pay hull insurance in the 5.5-6.5% range if they weren`t doing float training and in the 9.0-10% range if they do float training with solo. Multiply that percentage by the value of the aircraft and divide the resulting premium by the number of hours the airplane is flown annually and the hourly insurance input is shocking to most people.
I will illustrate the issue with a recent example of private pilot who recently bought a C-180 floatplane and did not have a float rating. His insurance company (he isn`t one of my insurance clients) asked for 50 hours training in order to meet their insurability requirements. The owner is are now a little more than halfway through and is doing very well, but on the last flight we did, on our way back to the the base he commented that he was just starting to feel comfortable and confident and that at 7 hours there is no way that he felt anywhere near proficient.
I think their comment is telling.
Spafloats
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Hedley, been away for a while and thought I would thank you for this offer.
You said:
"
.: I understand you have an expired instructor rating (not sure what class). I happen to hold a class 1 instructor rating. Anytime that you can find the time to visit, I will gladly to spend the required time on the ground and in the air, and to recommend you to write and fly the tests, to get your instructor rating back.
I know it's not a lot of fun, but all the various bits of paper can come in handy down the road and I find it vaguely ridiculous that someone of your experience (used to run a flight school, PBY training, etc) doesn't have an instructor's rating."
I used to hold a Class Two many years ago, however I really can not see any benefit in renewing it at best it would mean I would have to take a real serious reduction in my hourly rate for sea plane training.
Here is why.
When I get my Cub flying I will teach on it and probably charge around $150.00 per hour.
The Cub will cost me about $40.00 per hour to operate.
What possible benefit would having a Canadian Instructors Rating do for me?
FlyaJet wrote:
" Hey cat driver,
All i can say is that Air-Hart was a good company that put alot of effort into finding the conditions (glassy to rough water and everything inbetween) for thier students. They were efficient and from what i saw did not try to take advantage of students in anyway, unlike many other operators. 7 is the TC minimum...i agree thats not near enough to learn everything about flying floats. But then again, is 200 sufficient to fly for an airline?
You make it sound like everyone that wants to do a float rating should know it ALL. Pull your head out. "
FlyaJet, go fu.k yourself.
Cat
"
You said:
"
.: I understand you have an expired instructor rating (not sure what class). I happen to hold a class 1 instructor rating. Anytime that you can find the time to visit, I will gladly to spend the required time on the ground and in the air, and to recommend you to write and fly the tests, to get your instructor rating back.
I know it's not a lot of fun, but all the various bits of paper can come in handy down the road and I find it vaguely ridiculous that someone of your experience (used to run a flight school, PBY training, etc) doesn't have an instructor's rating."
I used to hold a Class Two many years ago, however I really can not see any benefit in renewing it at best it would mean I would have to take a real serious reduction in my hourly rate for sea plane training.
Here is why.
When I get my Cub flying I will teach on it and probably charge around $150.00 per hour.
The Cub will cost me about $40.00 per hour to operate.
What possible benefit would having a Canadian Instructors Rating do for me?
FlyaJet wrote:
" Hey cat driver,
All i can say is that Air-Hart was a good company that put alot of effort into finding the conditions (glassy to rough water and everything inbetween) for thier students. They were efficient and from what i saw did not try to take advantage of students in anyway, unlike many other operators. 7 is the TC minimum...i agree thats not near enough to learn everything about flying floats. But then again, is 200 sufficient to fly for an airline?
You make it sound like everyone that wants to do a float rating should know it ALL. Pull your head out. "
FlyaJet, go fu.k yourself.
Cat
"
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Elessar_44
- Rank 3
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:34 pm
This thread has been a good read, thanks guys.
Getting my float and going to North Ontario is one of the options I'm considering for next spring when I'm all done my degree and my IFR training (what are options are there really? for someone who doesnt want to instruct). I've kind of kept an eye on good float trainers in the Ontario region from this forum but I'm sure I'll be asking again in a couple months.
Getting my float and going to North Ontario is one of the options I'm considering for next spring when I'm all done my degree and my IFR training (what are options are there really? for someone who doesnt want to instruct). I've kind of kept an eye on good float trainers in the Ontario region from this forum but I'm sure I'll be asking again in a couple months.
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flyinggirl
- Rank 3
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:03 am
- Location: in the middle of a 4 engine sandwich.
Funny how a request for a good spot to do float training this winter turns into a debate on training practices and training times! Good to see positive debates.. but.. we should try and keep on track here right?
I did my Training with Dave Hamel at Ft. Langley air.. I'm sure you can find them on google. They've got a supercub and 180 at present and they'll rent the aircraft solo if you meet daves personal requirements.
I learned an amazing amount from dave just on the ground and more so in the airplane. Give them a look and see how busy they are.
Also if you don't want to venture to vancouver island or kelowna.. I believe PRO IFR has a float division as well based at YVR southside running a "cute" 172.. pm me on that and I'll let you know more as I'll probably be sitting beside you
edited to add that someones already put a link up for floatsafety (pro's float division)
I did my Training with Dave Hamel at Ft. Langley air.. I'm sure you can find them on google. They've got a supercub and 180 at present and they'll rent the aircraft solo if you meet daves personal requirements.
I learned an amazing amount from dave just on the ground and more so in the airplane. Give them a look and see how busy they are.
Also if you don't want to venture to vancouver island or kelowna.. I believe PRO IFR has a float division as well based at YVR southside running a "cute" 172.. pm me on that and I'll let you know more as I'll probably be sitting beside you
edited to add that someones already put a link up for floatsafety (pro's float division)
