CBC coverage- Pilot’s frustrated ATC rant

[khedrei]

One can see why AI a robots are the future. Zero concern for the average person. Railway and port unions literally willing to screw over the economy by partially shutting it down. Postal strike despite a billion dollars of losses. Never ending ATC shortage. Sclerotic massive government payroll, teachers politicizing education. A revolution is coming but attitudes will make it come faster.

The flow will be changing.

You bash all of these other organizations for "screwing over the economy by partially shutting it down" but you do realize Air Canada pilots were more than willing to strike during their last contract talks, right?

Would you be bashing Air Canada pilots for going on strike too, or is it just whoever is the flavour of the week that merits your outrage?

An AC pilot I know got about a 100K raise with the new contract. I am quite happy for him and he deserves it. AC is doing quite well and should share the wealth. But when both rail unions go on strike or the port workers that will literally put the country in a depression, I have a problem with that. You should too. And yes, I do have a sibling that owns a business that needs supplies to survive.

Ah yes, only people who work in industries that aren't ruled by monopolies deserve to be treated properly and have a right to strike.

If AC pilots, and WJ pilots and Porter pilots (if they ever got a union) would not be allowed to strike at the same time. Strikes are only ok if they don't cause too much damage.

[55+]

Not a good look for a professional pilot to be ranting about another aviation profession like this. Frustrations and emotions run high but this isn’t a good response, particularly the rumour fuelled accusations.

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6773978

Certainly not a stellar example of professionalism by any stretch. Nav Canada like any major corporation certainly has its areas of “looseness” and I would respectfully suggest Air Canada wanders in that territory as well. I worked at NC for a number of years and know Corporate VPs and Director levels on a personal basis. Rest assured NC VP level(s) made their views known to an equivalent level at Air Canada either via call or follow up letter, especially when the “ rant” so to speak was captured and public aired by the CBC with unfounded accusations. To what extent this public airing translates from Air Canada Mgt levels to that particular employee isn’t for me to speculate. Finally one may wonder what the passengers on that particular flight thought of the “ tirade” - perhaps another issue that may concern Air Canada.

[digits_]

Not what I expected when I was reading about "ranting" and "tirade".

Sounded like a captain who was a bit tired of the situation and tried to use humor a bit to lighten the mood, and probably got caught up in his own word salad.

Unprofessional? Perhaps. But at some point actions like these are needed to fix the problems. I've been reading about excessive ATC delays in CYVR for over 6 years now. It doesn't take 6 years to make a new controller. NavCanada (as an organisation) shouldn't ask/expect professional behaviour in an attempt to mask their own short comings. Politics are a major factor of the problems. Public reports such as these can be quite effective to accomplish political change.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

One can see why AI a robots are the future. Zero concern for the average person. Railway and port unions literally willing to screw over the economy by partially shutting it down. Postal strike despite a billion dollars of losses. Never ending ATC shortage. Sclerotic massive government payroll, teachers politicizing education. A revolution is coming but attitudes will make it come faster.

The flow will be changing.

You bash all of these other organizations for "screwing over the economy by partially shutting it down" but you do realize Air Canada pilots were more than willing to strike during their last contract talks, right?

Would you be bashing Air Canada pilots for going on strike too, or is it just whoever is the flavour of the week that merits your outrage?

An AC pilot I know got about a 100K raise with the new contract. I am quite happy for him and he deserves it. AC is doing quite well and should share the wealth. But when both rail unions go on strike or the port workers that will literally put the country in a depression, I have a problem with that. You should too. And yes, I do have a sibling that owns a business that needs supplies to survive.

You didn't answer my question. Yes or no: Would you have supported Air Canada pilots if they voted to go on strike during the last negotiations?

[pelmet]

You bash all of these other organizations for "screwing over the economy by partially shutting it down" but you do realize Air Canada pilots were more than willing to strike during their last contract talks, right?

Would you be bashing Air Canada pilots for going on strike too, or is it just whoever is the flavour of the week that merits your outrage?

An AC pilot I know got about a 100K raise with the new contract. I am quite happy for him and he deserves it. AC is doing quite well and should share the wealth. But when both rail unions go on strike or the port workers that will literally put the country in a depression, I have a problem with that. You should too. And yes, I do have a sibling that owns a business that needs supplies to survive.

You didn't answer my question. Yes or no: Would you have supported Air Canada pilots if they voted to go on strike during the last negotiations?

I would have to see what the details of an offer they would have been striking about. Seeing as they voted for what they were offered, it appears that the company made an offer that the pilots as a whole were satisfied with. Would it have been nice if the company had offered more? Sure. Especially for the more junior guys. But there will be more negotiations in a few years. I wish the pilots the best next time.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

An AC pilot I know got about a 100K raise with the new contract. I am quite happy for him and he deserves it. AC is doing quite well and should share the wealth. But when both rail unions go on strike or the port workers that will literally put the country in a depression, I have a problem with that. You should too. And yes, I do have a sibling that owns a business that needs supplies to survive.

You didn't answer my question. Yes or no: Would you have supported Air Canada pilots if they voted to go on strike during the last negotiations?

I would have to see what the details of an offer they would have been striking about. Seeing as they voted for what they were offered, it appears that the company made an offer that the pilots as a whole were satisfied with. Would it have been nice if the company had offered more? Sure. Especially for the more junior guys. But there will be more negotiations in a few years. I wish the pilots the best next time.

Ok, let's say the company made an offer that Air Canada pilots weren't satisfied with, same as an offer that rail unions, port workers and teachers didn't like (all of whom you bashed by the way). If that were the case, I bet you'd be ok with Air Canada striking if it came to that. You're just coming off as a hypocrite, essentially saying "No one else can strike, except this one select group who I identify with and/or support."

So, I'll ask one last time. You've deflected my question twice now, so either answer it or get off your soap box. Would you have supported Air Canada pilots if they voted to go on strike during the last negotiations?

P.S. You posted a long diatribe about the FAA's hiring practices, but this thread is about NavCanada's ATC issues. Make sure you get the country and organization right next time before you try to make a point.

[‘Bob’]

“Canadians” talk about their First Amendment rights just like “Americans” talk about their Warm Water Ports.

[pelmet]

P.S. You posted a long diatribe about the FAA's hiring practices, but this thread is about NavCanada's ATC issues. Make sure you get the country and organization right next time before you try to make a point.

Why do so many have such foolish ideas. It's like saying we shouldn't use statistics from the US to decide that hard drugs are bad because......they are from a different country.

No point arguing with foolish thought process. If you want to go on strike....I suggest that you go on a wildcat strike tomorrow. I will give you 100% moral support.

P.S. I gave a thoughtful response to your last question demanding a YES or NO answer. Thoughtful obviously does not go well with you.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

P.S. I gave a thoughtful response to your last question demanding a YES or NO answer. Thoughtful obviously does not go well with you.

You gave a thoughtful response, but no matter how thoughtful, it did not answer my question. This is what you believe is "thoughtful" and posted in response to my yes or no question:

I would have to see what the details of an offer they would have been striking about. Seeing as they voted for what they were offered, it appears that the company made an offer that the pilots as a whole were satisfied with. Would it have been nice if the company had offered more? Sure. Especially for the more junior guys. But there will be more negotiations in a few years. I wish the pilots the best next time.

If you can find a "yes" or "no" in there, please explain it to me. Otherwise, you just continue to avoid directly answering the question, just as you accuse our government of doing.

Come on. It's simple, unless you're avoiding answering because you realize it torpedo's your argument.. Yes or no. If that's too complex of a question to ask of you, I guess we're done here.

[pelmet]

P.S. I gave a thoughtful response to your last question demanding a YES or NO answer. Thoughtful obviously does not go well with you.

You gave a thoughtful response, but no matter how thoughtful, it did not answer my question. This is what you believe is "thoughtful" and posted in response to my yes or no question:

I would have to see what the details of an offer they would have been striking about. Seeing as they voted for what they were offered, it appears that the company made an offer that the pilots as a whole were satisfied with. Would it have been nice if the company had offered more? Sure. Especially for the more junior guys. But there will be more negotiations in a few years. I wish the pilots the best next time.

If you can find a "yes" or "no" in there, please explain it to me. Otherwise, you just continue to avoid directly answering the question, just as you accuse our government of doing.

Come on. It's simple, unless you're avoiding answering because you realize it torpedo's your argument.. Yes or no. If that's too complex of a question to ask of you, I guess we're done here.

Mmmmmmmm…………..maybe

But the bottom line is that I am a big fan of profit sharing. Air Canada has had plenty of profits and that should be shared with the employees. I know that WJ used to have this formula.

[newlygrounded]

One can see why AI a robots are the future. Zero concern for the average person. Railway and port unions literally willing to screw over the economy by partially shutting it down. Postal strike despite a billion dollars of losses. Never ending ATC shortage. Sclerotic massive government payroll, teachers politicizing education. A revolution is coming but attitudes will make it come faster.

The flow will be changing.

You bash all of these other organizations for "screwing over the economy by partially shutting it down" but you do realize Air Canada pilots were more than willing to strike during their last contract talks, right?

Would you be bashing Air Canada pilots for going on strike too, or is it just whoever is the flavour of the week that merits your outrage?

Seems some people are allergic to answering yes or no questions

[pelmet]

Seems some people are allergic to answering yes or no questions

Maybe.

[altiplano]

Legal job action or strike action is different than coordinated book offs for personal benefit.

If NavCanada controllers want to earn more they need to get it at the table, not by what amounts to defrauding airlines and the public and negatively effects thousands of people every day.

And those not involved should be speaking up, this type of performance tarnishes their whole profession.

[16SidedOffice]

coordinated book offs for personal benefit.

So much misinformation. Units are so short that even if no one books off sick there still isn't enough people willing to come in and work the overtime to try and fill every slot because they are tired and already overworked. This is where those delays are coming from.

[Daniel Cooper]

So much misinformation. Units are so short that even if no one books off sick there still isn't enough people willing to come in and work the overtime to try and fill every slot because they are tired and already overworked. This is where those delays are coming from.

You seem like an insider. In your opinion why is there a controller shortage? Just a low salary issue?

[16SidedOffice]

In your opinion why is there a controller shortage? Just a low salary issue?

I think it's from a few things. They never caught up from a hiring freeze in the late 80's, then during covid every student in the system was let go. Many of those were offered to come back at some point afterwards but many of them had moved on by then.
Overall, they just never out paced attrition of the retirees. The writing was on the wall 20+ years ago.
Salary wise, there needs to be more incentive for qualified controllers from the easier units to want to come to the harder more complex ones.

[CpnCrunch]

Salary wise, there needs to be more incentive for qualified controllers from the easier units to want to come to the harder more complex ones.

What is the barrier (if any) to this happening?

[goingnowherefast]

They never caught up from a hiring freeze in the late 80's, then during covid every student in the system was let go.

The late 80s was 35-40 years ago. That's several generations of management and a whole careers worth of time.

Several generations of management have decided that the controller shortage isn't an issue worth addressing. Any one of them could have opened another training school. Aggressively poached from the military and/or FAA. Yet none of this happened. Seems as though nobody in management hasn't cared since the late 80s.

This tells me the NavCanada BOD is okay with the status quo. They consider ATC related airline delays and airspace restrictions perfectly acceptable. If they didn't, they'd hire management and executive teams that would eventually work towards solving the issue. Seems that they just don't care.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Salary wise, there needs to be more incentive for qualified controllers from the easier units to want to come to the harder more complex ones.

What is the barrier (if any) to this happening?

It's more than just money.

- For controllers at smaller towers, the move to harder and more complex ones (or switching from VFR to IFR) would require a year or more of training... two-ish if switching from VFR and had to start IFR from scratch. Not a lot of people necessarily want to commit to that length of training when they may not be successful at the end. It's not like doing a new type rating in 2 months to move from a 737 to the high-paying 777.

- People and families get established and don't want to move. Unlike the airlines, there's no commuting across the country from your home to your tower or cenrte.

- The units that pay the most are in cities that have higher costs of living. I can make my ATC salary at a small tower in a small town go much further than extra money but needing to live in CYVR, CYYZ, etc. In my city, I can afford a large house on a large mature lot. In YYZ, I'd make almost double but my salary would only get me a condo or townhome, or I'd need to commute an hour to find a comparable house to what I have now. My current drive is less than 20 minutes.

- Work dynamic: I love the people I work with at my tower. There are other towers where the work environment isn't as positive. I wouldn't move there just for the larger paycheque.

- Schedule: Each tower can make their own schedule (to a degree). For example, at my tower, we work longer days to have more weekend days off in a row (4 or 5 days off in a row). To move to my next closest tower that pays more, they work fewer hours per day but only get 3 or 4 day weekends. Having 4 or 5 days off in a row also makes it easy to justify picking up the odd O/T. If I only have 3 days off, I don't necessarily want to put an O/T in the middle of that and break up my weekend.

As you can see, there are many reasons why someone at a smaller tower wouldn't want to move to a larger one.Yeah the pay would be better, but it comes at a definite cost.

[co-joe]

I'm pretty sure I've seen that particular rumour here on avcanada. Seems like a bad idea to be airing it in public when there isn't any actual evidence. Better to stick to the facts: this has been an issue since long before covid, and then poor decisions during covid just made it infinitely worse. Previously it mostly just affected GA, but now it's mostly the airlines (as most of the rest of us have long since given up on YVR terminal).

Navcanada seems like it's corrupt to its core. A government handout monopoly, with zero accountability, and with zero incentive to be functional. The worse it gets, the more money it makes its members. Fits right in in this country where the airports are also monopolies, with zero accountability to anyone. They can nust write blank cheques to themselves with the traveling public's money and nobody can do anything about it.

Make Navcanada pay the airlines and passengers for the delays it causes out of its after tax profit, and make it law that they can't jist raise ANS fees to pay for it, and then lets see how fast things change.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Navcanada seems like it's corrupt to its core. A government handout monopoly, with zero accountability, and with zero incentive to be functional.

I'm not sure where you are getting the "government handout" idea from. Directly from the Transport Canada website: "NAV CANADA is a private, not-for-profit, non-share capital corporation, incorporated under the Canada Not-for-profit Corporations Act. The entity is self-financing, receives no support from government, and relies on fees charged to users of its services."

The worse it gets, the more money it makes its members.

At a lot of units, these members are working to the maximum number of hours allowed within the Canada Labour Code, not because they necessarily want to, but because they have to to keep the unit running. That extra income is the "perk" of working to exhaustion.

Make Navcanada pay the airlines... for the delays it causes out of its after tax profit.

Do you realize that members of these same airlines, the National Airlines Council,CBAA, ALPA, ACPA, etc not only sit on the NavCanada board of Directors but also on the NavCanada Advisory Committee? You want NavCanada to pay these same entities who have approved the direction NavCanada is taking?

I'm not saying Nav doesn't have it's issues, but get your facts straight before griping about thing's you're obviously ignorant about.

[altiplano]

That's a pretty mundane looking BOD. I don't see anyone on there that stands out, 1 retired AC office executive that worked on the commercial side, not the operational side. Really, a bunch of patronage appointments.

And advisory committees are just lip service, there's no directing happening there.

[goingnowherefast]

Navcanada seems like it's corrupt to its core. A government handout monopoly, with zero accountability, and with zero incentive to be functional.

I'm not sure where you are getting the "government handout" idea from. Directly from the Transport Canada website: "NAV CANADA is a private, not-for-profit, non-share capital corporation, incorporated under the Canada Not-for-profit Corporations Act. The entity is self-financing, receives no support from government, and relies on fees charged to users of its services."

I understood co-joe's comment to mean the government handed NavCanada a monopoly. Meaning NavCanada has no incentive to provide a good service because the customers have no other choice.

I'm not gonna pretend to know the answer. Everyone has their theories, including myself. The only thing we all know for certain is the status quo doesn't work.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Navcanada seems like it's corrupt to its core. A government handout monopoly, with zero accountability, and with zero incentive to be functional.

I'm not sure where you are getting the "government handout" idea from. Directly from the Transport Canada website: "NAV CANADA is a private, not-for-profit, non-share capital corporation, incorporated under the Canada Not-for-profit Corporations Act. The entity is self-financing, receives no support from government, and relies on fees charged to users of its services."

I understood co-joe's comment to mean the government handed NavCanada a monopoly. Meaning NavCanada has no incentive to provide a good service because the customers have no other choice.

Even if that's what co-joe meant, having a "monopoly" is standard for every country worldwide. In the U.S., it's the FAA, with a smattering of contract towers operated by groups like Midwest ATC (where the pay and working conditions are abysmal even compared to the FAA - think working 8 hours in position with no breaks, all by yourself). The UK has NATS, Australia has Airservices Australia, France and Italy have has the DSNA and ENAV respectively who seem to go on strike every 6 months etc etc. At NavCanada we can't strike.

For those that keep beating the drum that NavCanada is a "monopoly" that should be abolished, I'd like to see some examples of other countries where that isn't the norm and there are multiple national-level service providers each with their own workforce, procedures and standards and see how well they function. Again, I'm not saying Nav doesn't have its own issues, but these are the same issues faced by many of the leading ANSP's worldwide.

[altiplano]

What's not standard is "user pay" in this country and the fact that all the air navigation charges are passed through to the passengers right on their tickets. There's nobody with any teeth to hold the service to some semblance of accountability.

It's clear as day to anyone that's been around this industry a while that the operation at NavCanada is broken. It's also plain to anyone that has experience world wide that NavCanada performance is subpar. Giant country, not particularly busy airspace, but our performance is bottom of the heap.

Maybe there's some fault on the regulator on there too, but it's mostly NavCanada's complete failure to execute. I mean, why should they. They all get paid big bucks anyway. From the unaccountable CEO and board on down.