Poll: What is the most embarrassing aspect of the Air Canada pilot contract?

[ACPA2.0]

Reading some of the posts here, you’d think the rooms would be packed at local council meetings with members demanding change, pushing resolutions, engaging leadership. But that hasn’t been my experience at all. The meetings I’ve attended at YYZ have been sparsely attended. In fact, all the other bases have routinely had better turnout, even including YWG! Let that sink in: a base of roughly 50 pilots out-attending a base of 2,500+.

Meanwhile, over 1,000 people signed up for free Jays tickets. Granted they may not have all been from Toronto but still, that contrast says a lot about where engagement is strong and where it isn’t.

When participation is this low, it’s difficult to argue there’s widespread dissatisfaction. Either most members are reasonably content with the agreement, or the desire for change simply isn’t strong enough to show up. In any case, you can't claim this was a bad deal because if that were true, the meetings would be packed and there would be hundreds of people posting their grievances on this very thread, as opposed to the usual dozen or so.

All that to say this is nothing but a bunch of hot air.

"It's just a loud vocal minority"
- ACPA

ACPA 2.0

[Fanblade]

Maybe no one is showing up because they're burnt out from the junk work rules they negotiated. And have bigger worries, like feeding (or even seeing) their families, than showing up at a council meeting where leadership does nothing more than pay lip service to the company ("the company isn't willing to x y z, there's nothing we can do"). Hierarchy of needs and all...

Meanwhile hundreds of open grievances and nothing being done. Zero communication from the MEC chair. ALPA not really doing much to rally the troops or demonstrate any kind of strength. It goes both ways.

You can’t keep everyone pumped up indefinitely. Peaking at the right time is important.

The amount to grievances are an indication of contempt that has not altered. More probably it has increased.

This is what I expect from AC management on the next round. Straight back to the old playbook.

Contract expires end of September. Expedited push for impasse to involve government at low point in year. Declare impasse in December. 60 day clock running out in February. Zero accomplished heading into strike/lockout.

Government intervention leading to arbitration. The company prefers arbitrators because they never make substantive changes. They also have a tendance to limit issues on the table. The company loves this.

This has been their playbook for decades. They deviated from it with us. I’m pretty sure they view that deviation as a strategic error and it won’t likely happen again. Notice they went straight back to the original playbook with the FA’s.

Many here, including this poll, portray the FA’s accomplishing great things by going on strike. Yes I too like that they stood up to the company. However in the end the company got what it wanted.

A strategy is required to deal with the company fast tracking the whole process to government intervention. Failure to do so will lead to the next contract being very very underwhelming. ALPA is not going to endorse a wildcat. Not that it helped the FA’s any.

Don’t underestimate the company’s contempt for free bargaining, your profession or your contract. They are going to be 10 times more difficult to deal with moving forward. They have no intention of implementing the contract they already agreed to, never mind future improvements.

Divide yourself at the expense of your own wallet and quality of life.

A belief that you can breach government intervention and still win? In the real world this is simply a fallacy.

[Bede]

Its called resignation.

The pilots have given up on the leadership. They think their union is a waste of time except for Blue Jays tickets.

Nice try with the rationalizations though.

Didn't AC ALPA just get new leadership a few months ago?

[thepoors]

Maybe no one is showing up because they're burnt out from the junk work rules they negotiated. And have bigger worries, like feeding (or even seeing) their families, than showing up at a council meeting where leadership does nothing more than pay lip service to the company ("the company isn't willing to x y z, there's nothing we can do"). Hierarchy of needs and all...

Meanwhile hundreds of open grievances and nothing being done. Zero communication from the MEC chair. ALPA not really doing much to rally the troops or demonstrate any kind of strength. It goes both ways.

You can’t keep everyone pumped up indefinitely. Peaking at the right time is important.

The amount to grievances are an indication of contempt that has not altered. More probably it has increased.

This is what I expect from AC management on the next round. Straight back to the old playbook.

Contract expires end of September. Expedited push for impasse to involve government at low point in year. Declare impasse in December. 60 day clock running out in February. Zero accomplished heading into strike/lockout.

Government intervention leading to arbitration. The company prefers arbitrators because they never make substantive changes. They also have a tendance to limit issues on the table. The company loves this.

This has been their playbook for decades. They deviated from it with us. I’m pretty sure they view that deviation as a strategic error and it won’t likely happen again. Notice they went straight back to the original playbook with the FA’s.

Many here, including this poll, portray the FA’s accomplishing great things by going on strike. Yes I too like that they stood up to the company. However in the end the company got what it wanted.

A strategy is required to deal with the company fast tracking the whole process to government intervention. Failure to do so will lead to the next contract being very very underwhelming. ALPA is not going to endorse a wildcat. Not that it helped the FA’s any.

Don’t underestimate the company’s contempt for free bargaining, your profession or your contract. They are going to be 10 times more difficult to deal with moving forward. They have no intention of implementing the contract they already agreed to, never mind future improvements.

Divide yourself at the expense of your own wallet and quality of life.

A belief that you can breach government intervention and still win? In the real world this is simply a fallacy.

I'm well aware of this company's unparalleled hatred of its employees. I'm not sure why you think they deviated from their playbook with us. ALPA's capitulation prior to strike notice and the resulting TA were a huge win for the company. The ghost of "the minister in the room" was a huge factor in that outcome. With the result that AC felt practically zero financial pain with only a handful of cancelled flights in the lead up (see option 1 of the poll above).

I agree there needs to be a strategy to prevent a fast track to section 107. Does ALPA have one, or are they working on one? All we've seen is the company calling our bluff because ALPA is the union who cried wolf at this point. If the threat of strike isn't real nothing is going to change. The membership repeatedly demonstrated its support of and willingness to strike. ALPA leadership thinks they know better but the results so far don't reflect that.

What this outcome has demonstrated is, if we aren't going to strike, we at least need better contract language and iron-clad implementation clauses. The fact we made meager QOL gains is compounded by the company being allowed to choose not to follow large portions of the contract indefinitely, and we have no recourse. I'm not sure how any competent lawyer looked at our contract and said yeah this will work. If ALPA is going to go the route of mediation and sacrifice strike leverage there needs to be a pay off. Up to now they've accomplished neither and AC's lawyers are laughing at us.

The company not only got it's way in negots, it's also getting it's way in ignoring the contract. Which is why you're seeing a cynical and resigned membership. If ALPA can't force some kind of accountability, then wtf are we even doing? The purely defeatist messaging we've been hearing ("company isn't willing..blah blah blah") is downright sickening. If ALPA leadership is afraid of the company, we need new leadership. Sure the FA's may not have gotten the results but at least their union demonstrated they aren't led by cowards. That's the first step.

[Fanblade]

The company not only got it's way in negots, it's also getting it's way in ignoring the contract. Which is why you're seeing a cynical and resigned membership. If ALPA can't force some kind of accountability, then wtf are we even doing? The purely defeatist messaging we've been hearing ("company isn't willing..blah blah blah") is downright sickening. If ALPA leadership is afraid of the company, we need new leadership. Sure the FA's may not have gotten the results but at least their union demonstrated they aren't led by cowards. That's the first step.

So what you are saying is that the pilot group’s engagement is controlled by the companies behaviour towards our contract? They ignore it and we give up?

Looks like their strategy is working on some people. But you are correct that is exactly the strategy they are employing, because they know full well there is no accountability between contracts. Labour law is tilted so far in their favour, they know the worst that can happen is a slap on the wrist through a grievance procedure, they know we have no other recourse, yet the benefits of a cynical and resigned pilot group’s is priceless.

This is a team sport. Your not supposed to be playing for the opposition by capitulating to their strategy to erode unity.

[thepoors]

The company not only got it's way in negots, it's also getting it's way in ignoring the contract. Which is why you're seeing a cynical and resigned membership. If ALPA can't force some kind of accountability, then wtf are we even doing? The purely defeatist messaging we've been hearing ("company isn't willing..blah blah blah") is downright sickening. If ALPA leadership is afraid of the company, we need new leadership. Sure the FA's may not have gotten the results but at least their union demonstrated they aren't led by cowards. That's the first step.

So what you are saying is that the pilot group’s engagement is controlled by the companies behaviour towards our contract?

No, I'm saying it's controlled by ALPA's ineffectiveness and apathy to holding the company accountable.

Labour law is tilted so far in their favour, they know the worst that can happen is a slap on the wrist through a grievance procedure, they know we have no other recourse, yet the benefits of a cynical and resigned pilot group’s is priceless.

The recourse is to negotiate a contract that is 1) enforceable and 2) isn't riddled with loopholes the company can exploit. Clearly a giant fail that's fully on ALPA and its lawyers.

I agree there needs to be a strategy to prevent a fast track to section 107. Does ALPA have one, or are they working on one?

Are you able to answer my question?

[Fanblade]

I'm well aware of this company's unparalleled hatred of its employees. I'm not sure why you think they deviated from their playbook with us. ALPA's capitulation prior to strike notice and the resulting TA were a huge win for the company. The ghost of "the minister in the room" was a huge factor in that outcome. With the result that AC felt practically zero financial pain with only a handful of cancelled flights in the lead up (see option 1 of the poll above).

You clearly weren’t paying attention to load factors after the impasse. ALPA targets future bookings. Explained in length in a previous post.

The ghost of minister in the room? You mean the smoking minister that cornered your MEC chair and stated “ you don’t want to leave this hotel without a deal? That minister?

I agree there needs to be a strategy to prevent a fast track to section 107. Does ALPA have one, or are they working on one? All we've seen is the company calling our bluff because ALPA is the union who cried wolf at this point. If the threat of strike isn't real nothing is going to change. The membership repeatedly demonstrated its support of and willingness to strike. ALPA leadership thinks they know better but the results so far don't reflect that.

There is no magic wand strategy to prevent a fast track and section 107. It doesn’t exist.

I’m going to type this very slowly so you hear it. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO STRIKE………….A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO STRIKE IN FACT…………..RIGHT UP UNTIL A LAWMAKER DECIDES YOU DONT.

Living outside this reality ends very badly. It means you are not situationally aware of your surroundings. There is a balance. You ask for nothing and just take what’s given? You get next to nothing. You ask for too much all at once, and you invite government intervention and arbitration, which gets you next to nothing. ACPA bounced between the two and AC took full advantage. You appear to want to walk straight back into intervention which will accomplish nothing in the way of WAWCON and will serve the companies desire to make us feel impotent.

The strategy to overcome all this also explained at length in a previous thread. It was mocked.

Follow your leadership. If you don’t you will pay through the wallet and QOL.

[Fanblade]

The company not only got it's way in negots, it's also getting it's way in ignoring the contract. Which is why you're seeing a cynical and resigned membership. If ALPA can't force some kind of accountability, then wtf are we even doing? The purely defeatist messaging we've been hearing ("company isn't willing..blah blah blah") is downright sickening. If ALPA leadership is afraid of the company, we need new leadership. Sure the FA's may not have gotten the results but at least their union demonstrated they aren't led by cowards. That's the first step.

So what you are saying is that the pilot group’s engagement is controlled by the companies behaviour towards our contract?

No, I'm saying it's controlled by ALPA's ineffectiveness and apathy to holding the company accountable.

Labour law is tilted so far in their favour, they know the worst that can happen is a slap on the wrist through a grievance procedure, they know we have no other recourse, yet the benefits of a cynical and resigned pilot group’s is priceless.

The recourse is to negotiate a contract that is 1) enforceable and 2) isn't riddled with loopholes the company can exploit. Clearly a giant fail that's fully on ALPA and its lawyers.

I agree there needs to be a strategy to prevent a fast track to section 107. Does ALPA have one, or are they working on one?

Are you able to answer my question?

Again very slowly.

THERE IS NO WAY TO HOLD AN EMPLOYER ACCOUNTABLE FOR IGNORING THE CONTRACT IF THAT IS WHAT THEY DECIDE TO DO

The option is grievance. It is weak.

What you are struggling with is the sudden realization of how much the cards are stacked against labour. Add that to a company that has no problem exploiting it.

Almost 40 years of this now and I have rarely seen AC be held to account. In the rare case it has happened the consequences so light it could hardly be seen as a deterrent.

Denigrating your leadership because we can’t hold the company to account is playing straight into the companies strategy. A strategy that is trying to whisper in your ear. You’re weak. You’re impotent. Give up. Turn on yourselves

[thepoors]

There is no magic wand strategy to prevent a fast track and section 107. It doesn’t exist.

I’m going to type this very slowly so you hear it. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO STRIKE………….A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO STRIKE IN FACT…………..RIGHT UP UNTIL A LAWMAKER DECIDES YOU DONT.

Living outside this reality ends very badly. It means you are not situationally aware of your surroundings. There is a balance. You ask for nothing and just take what’s given? You get next to nothing. You ask for too much all at once, and you invite government intervention and arbitration, which gets you next to nothing. ACPA bounced between the two and took full advantage. You appear to want to walk straight back into intervention which will accomplish nothing in the way of WAWCON and will serve the companies desire to make us feel impotent.

The strategy to overcome all this also explained at length in a previous thread. It was mocked.

Follow your leadership. If you don’t you will pay through the wallet and QOL.

You are contradicting yourself. You claim the company wants a fast track to 107, yet admit ALPA doesn't have a strategy to prevent this. If a lawmaker is going to infringe on our constitutional right to strike, all the more reason we should be taking them to task. So far we have backed down every time they have threatened to take away that right. We can thank the FA's for exposing that if we stand up to it, they will backtrack. The precedent is set, we just have to be willing to follow through.

This mythical "balance" you're hoping for in negotiations is not realistic because, as you correctly surmised, the company has it out for us. They will never negotiate in good faith allowing a satisfactory balance to be reached. I have not seen any argument for a negotiating strategy that could overcome this. The "pattern bargaining" fallacy is just that because (as I've pointed out in previous posts) by definition it requires a breakthrough strong contract to be secured to then pattern off of. ALPA has yet to achieve anything resembling a strong contract in this country.

THERE IS NO WAY TO HOLD AN EMPLOYER ACCOUNTABLE FOR IGNORING THE CONTRACT IF THAT IS WHAT THEY DECIDE TO DO

There is if you actually secure a contract with enforceable clauses and penalties. It has to be baked in, because the grievance system doesn't work.

[Fanblade]

There is if you actually secure a contract with enforceable clauses and penalties.

There are very strict limits on the ability to do that in Canada. You are misinformed.

By the way I am not suggesting you don’t hold leadership to account. Quite the contrary.

What I am saying is you need to live in reality while doing it.

[thepoors]

Denigrating your leadership because we can’t hold the company to account is playing straight into the companies strategy.

Fair enough. All I can say is if ALPA is truly doing everything to try to hold them accountable, and is being prevented for reasons outside of their control, they need to do a better job of communicating that. I get the grievance system is broken.

ALPA should be harping on this - that they've taken every step and explored every avenue possible. Explain it and broadcast it loudly: the company doesn't respect you or your profession, they are doing everything to ensure your QOL doesn't improve because it's more convenient for them. Hell, why haven't we applied work to rule until the company fulfills it's contractual requirements?

If this was the messaging I guarantee you would see a lot less dissatisfaction. Instead it seems like we are walking on eggshells to not piss off management. That just breeds resentment.

[Bede]

For those of us not at AC, can someone point out some examples of where management broke the contract and got away with it (ie grievance unsuccessful or not pursued)?

[Fanblade]

Denigrating your leadership because we can’t hold the company to account is playing straight into the companies strategy.

Fair enough. All I can say is if ALPA is truly doing everything to try to hold them accountable, and is being prevented for reasons outside of their control, they need to do a better job of communicating that. I get the grievance system is broken.

ALPA should be harping on this - that they've taken every step and explored every avenue possible. Explain it and broadcast it loudly: the company doesn't respect you or your profession, they are doing everything to ensure your QOL doesn't improve because it's more convenient for them. Hell, why haven't we applied work to rule until the company fulfills it's contractual requirements?

If this was the messaging I guarantee you would see a lot less dissatisfaction. Instead it seems like we are walking on eggshells to not piss off management. That just breeds resentment.

Work to rule is illegal unless you are in a legal strike position.

It’s more than just about convenience for AC. Much of it has to do with showing you and I who’s boss. Deliberate non compliance to send a message. You’re weak. You’re impotent. They never stop negotiating.

They are always picking something to get creative with and reinterpret. It’s a strategy. They never stop.

Also addressed in a previous lengthy thread by the way.

I don’t think they are worried about pissing off management. When a union decides to seize the dissatisfaction, it needs a place to be directed. Best done at full steam pressure rather than piecemeal. At the moment there isn’t a place to channel that energy that will provide long term benefit.

Wait for it. I know it seems like molasses. Correction this game is always played at the speed of slug.

[Fanblade]

As mentioned in an earlier, very lengthy thread that was largely mocked, leapfrogging each other is critical to recovering our profession to where it should be. There are no other legacy carriers in Canada to compete with. Sucks to be us. So we have no choice but to leapfrog what we have.

IOW you go to war with what you have, not what you wish you had.

It wasn’t critical that Transat leaped us, but it was necessary they keep up. They in fact kept up, and in some areas set new high water marks. That isn’t embarrassing. It’s fantastic.

They did their job in spades. Congratulations Transat. We appreciate your efforts in bringing up this profession. If anyone falls behind we will all experience the drag.

Next it’s WJ. By the end of the WJ contract we should be in last place again. I say this hopefully. I really do. I also have confidence they can do it as well.

Yet I know some of you will find it arborant that a legacy carriers is in last place yet again. I have news for you. This whole legacy stuff is mostly just in our heads. Everyone else out there goes………..yeah………..your point?

That’s okay. Then it will be our turn to leap them all.

It’s a competition folks. Take that frustration and channel it at beating Transat. Beating WestJet. It took the US carriers more than a decade. (3-4 bargaining cycles) to get from post bankruptcy lows ( making less than us) to kicking our ass.

The government, nor is any one company, going to permit one group getting too far out in front of the others. Legacy or not. The best time to have started this was two decades ago. Next best time is today.

Congratulations Transat. Well done!

[altiplano]

Imagine if KV and what's his name that went to work for BS hadn't done the preemptive 10 year deal in 2014?

Had we waited for 2016 to go back to the negotiating table after the FOS contract expired? After the company announced record profits in '14 & '15 & '16. After the US pilot contracts started their run?

We would have been a part of that run. Maybe we would have had our win in court too. We would be a decade ahead in our collective agreement. Traded away for $10K (of our own money) and a B-pass by a couple company moles.

Whatever... crying over spilt milk gets you nowhere, but you have to learn from the mistakes and remember what they took and how they did it. Look forward to getting it all in 2027.

[aeronauticaldisaster]

As mentioned in an earlier, very lengthy thread that was largely mocked, leapfrogging each other is critical to recovering our profession to where it should be. There are no other legacy carriers in Canada to compete with. Sucks to be us. So we have no choice but to leapfrog what we have.

IOW you go to war with what you have, not what you wish you had.

It wasn’t critical that Transat leaped us, but it was necessary they keep up. They in fact kept up, and in some areas set new high water marks. That isn’t embarrassing. It’s fantastic.

They did their job in spades. Congratulations Transat. We appreciate your efforts in bringing up this profession. If anyone falls behind we will all experience the drag.

Next it’s WJ. By the end of the WJ contract we should be in last place again. I say this hopefully. I really do. I also have confidence they can do it as well.

Yet I know some of you will find it arborant that a legacy carriers is in last place yet again. I have news for you. This whole legacy stuff is mostly just in our heads. Everyone else out there goes………..yeah………..your point?

That’s okay. Then it will be our turn to leap them all.

It’s a competition folks. Take that frustration and channel it at beating Transat. Beating WestJet. It took the US carriers more than a decade. (3-4 bargaining cycles) to get from post bankruptcy lows ( making less than us) to kicking our ass.

The government, nor is any one company, going to permit one group getting too far out in front of the others. Legacy or not. The best time to have started this was two decades ago. Next best time is today.

Congratulations Transat. Well done!

So basically ACPA was right all along...lol

Can't compare ourselves to the Americans, we can't strike, we can't negotiate improvements unless someone else does it first, and in the meantime focus on the 3 Ds: Dinners, Drinks and Displacements.

I'll give the team credit on the last round...they got themselves better raises than ACPA ever did with 90 hours of pay and a $2k stipend. What was the max ACPA ever did...wasn't it 82 hrs?

[ThrustIdle]

As mentioned in an earlier, very lengthy thread that was largely mocked, leapfrogging each other is critical to recovering our profession to where it should be. There are no other legacy carriers in Canada to compete with. Sucks to be us. So we have no choice but to leapfrog what we have.

IOW you go to war with what you have, not what you wish you had.

It wasn’t critical that Transat leaped us, but it was necessary they keep up. They in fact kept up, and in some areas set new high water marks. That isn’t embarrassing. It’s fantastic.

They did their job in spades. Congratulations Transat. We appreciate your efforts in bringing up this profession. If anyone falls behind we will all experience the drag.

Next it’s WJ. By the end of the WJ contract we should be in last place again. I say this hopefully. I really do. I also have confidence they can do it as well.

Yet I know some of you will find it arborant that a legacy carriers is in last place yet again. I have news for you. This whole legacy stuff is mostly just in our heads. Everyone else out there goes………..yeah………..your point?

That’s okay. Then it will be our turn to leap them all.

It’s a competition folks. Take that frustration and channel it at beating Transat. Beating WestJet. It took the US carriers more than a decade. (3-4 bargaining cycles) to get from post bankruptcy lows ( making less than us) to kicking our ass.

The government, nor is any one company, going to permit one group getting too far out in front of the others. Legacy or not. The best time to have started this was two decades ago. Next best time is today.

Congratulations Transat. Well done!

So basically ACPA was right all along...lol

Can't compare ourselves to the Americans, we can't strike, we can't negotiate improvements unless someone else does it first, and in the meantime focus on the 3 Ds: Dinners, Drinks and Displacements.

I'll give the team credit on the last round...they got themselves better raises than ACPA ever did with 90 hours of pay and a $2k stipend. What was the max ACPA ever did...wasn't it 82 hrs?

LMAO...I dont think even ACPA "pattern bargained" off Air Transat. They at least at one point were close to United. It was only after the 10 years deal did the organization succumb to the "we can't compare ourselves to the US" syndrome.

[Fanblade]

LMAO...I dont think even ACPA "pattern bargained" off Air Transat. They at least at one point were close to United. It was only after the 10 years deal did the organization succumb to the "we can't compare ourselves to the US" syndrome.

The mocking is right on cue.

Canadian labor law doesn't allow for comparisons out side the Canadian border.

I agree we should compare with the US. Absolutely it should be our target.

But you can't lose sight of the fact that labour law doesn't see it that way. An arbitrator will only look within our borders.

Which means a strategy that gets you what you want while being situationally aware of the law.

There are two ways to deal with this.

1) stay out of arbitration.

2) get Canadian comparitors up.

By the way ACPA didn't pattern bargain off of Transat. They undercut Transat. Effectively pulling Canadian comparitors down. They did the same with Cargojet.

It isn't completely that the US pilots left us in the dust. Part of the gap is that while they were leapfrogging up? We were leapfrogging down

[Fanblade]

]

So basically ACPA was right all along...lol

Can't compare ourselves to the Americans, we can't strike, we can't negotiate improvements unless someone else does it first, and in the meantime focus on the 3 Ds: Dinners, Drinks and Displacements.

It's called pattern bargaining and it works.

You want US parity but you don't want anything to do with the strategy they used to achieved it? What's with that logic?

We may have an ultimate goal of achieving US parity however a realistic strategy to accomplish that isn't simply pointing and demanding. That puts you into government intervention and arbitration. Arbitrators won't look outside our borders. Arbitrators move the needle very little.

In order to achieve parity we have to stay outside arbitration. Canadian labour law is not our friend. AC salivates over arbitration.

The only solution is we bring everyone else with us. Everyone

[rudder]

LMAO...I dont think even ACPA "pattern bargained" off Air Transat. They at least at one point were close to United. It was only after the 10 years deal did the organization succumb to the "we can't compare ourselves to the US" syndrome.

Right on cue.

What you have to understand is that Canadian labor law doesn't allow for comparisons out side the Canadian boarder.

I agree we should compare with the US. Absolutely.

But you can't lose sight of the fact that labour law doesn't see it that way.

Which means a strategy that gets you what you want while being situationally aware of the law

If anything, it’s even worse in the US when it comes to labour law at the Federal level (RLA). When was the last permitted airline strike in the US?

The US pilots leveraged the competition for pilot labour as airlines grew or backfilled retirement attrition. That is why they have things like free confirmed commuting and company paid hotels.

There is a pattern that is now set in Canada. It doesn’t even remotely resemble the WAWCON in the US. CDN employers had it too good for too long. Breaking that addiction will take several rounds of consistent gains in bargaining.

[Fanblade]

LMAO...I dont think even ACPA "pattern bargained" off Air Transat. They at least at one point were close to United. It was only after the 10 years deal did the organization succumb to the "we can't compare ourselves to the US" syndrome.

Right on cue.

What you have to understand is that Canadian labor law doesn't allow for comparisons out side the Canadian boarder.

I agree we should compare with the US. Absolutely.

But you can't lose sight of the fact that labour law doesn't see it that way.

Which means a strategy that gets you what you want while being situationally aware of the law

If anything, it’s even worse in the US when it comes to labour law at the Federal level (RLA). When was the last permitted airline strike in the US?

The US pilots leveraged the competition for pilot labour as airlines grew or backfilled retirement attrition. That is why they have things like free confirmed commuting and company paid hotels.

There is a pattern that is now set in Canada. It doesn’t even remotely resemble the WAWCON in the US. CDN employers had it too good for too long. Breaking that addiction will take several rounds of consistent gains in bargaining.

100%

I have a lot of confidence in professional pilots in Canada. Pilots are smart. If they get given a good understanding, they will make good decisions. The problem comes about when situational awareness is lacking.

I mean we are a bunch of type A personalities after all. We all know better than everyone else.

We just need to make sure that our know it all personality trait stays grounded in reality.

We do that? We will be fine

[thepoors]

Next it’s WJ. By the end of the WJ contract we should be in last place again. I say this hopefully. I really do. I also have confidence they can do it as well.

Yet I know some of you will find it arborant that a legacy carriers is in last place yet again. I have news for you. This whole legacy stuff is mostly just in our heads. Everyone else out there goes………..yeah………..your point?

That’s okay. Then it will be our turn to leap them all.

Please look up the definition of pattern bargaining. Because what you're describing isn't it.

It’s a competition folks. Take that frustration and channel it at beating Transat. Beating WestJet. It took the US carriers more than a decade. (3-4 bargaining cycles) to get from post bankruptcy lows ( making less than us) to kicking our ass.

The government, nor is any one company, going to permit one group getting too far out in front of the others. Legacy or not. The best time to have started this was two decades ago. Next best time is today.

If it's just a competition then why do we bother with unions? It sounds like this could just be accomplished in the free market. Porter was beating other airlines pay without one, and was able to do so quickly without getting bogged down in years of negotiations. If the best that can be achieved (or the government will allow) is just about one-upping the other guy by 2% then why are paying union dues and getting locked into 4 year contracts?

Obviously a union has its benefits, but the point is ALPA is proving itself largely ineffective when it comes to securing significant wawcon improvements in negotiations. The companies are winning the battle and you guys are celebrating peanuts getting tossed our way.

There is a pattern that is now set in Canada. It doesn’t even remotely resemble the WAWCON in the US. CDN employers had it too good for too long. Breaking that addiction will take several rounds of consistent gains in bargaining.

Exactly. We can't allow it to take 3-4 bargaining cycles to achieve parity with US wawcon because by that time they will be that much further ahead of us. This "pattern" of gaining crumbs, and "let's get them next round" is its own problem and needs to be broken. ALPA has to actually take a stand and....dare I say it? ...Strike?

[Fanblade]

Please look up the definition of pattern bargaining. Because what you're describing isn't it.

Really?

https://www.google.com/search?q=pattern ... fId=ChxjMe


Pattern bargaining is a union strategy where an agreement with one key employer (the "pattern setter") becomes the standard or template for negotiations with other employers in the same industry, creating consistent wages, benefits, and conditions, ensuring solidarity and preventing companies from undercutting each other on labor costs. Unions first negotiate a strong deal with a leading firm and then use it as a "take-it-or-leave-it" demand for subsequent companies, leveraging collective power across the sector, famously seen in the auto industry.

[thepoors]

Please look up the definition of pattern bargaining. Because what you're describing isn't it.

Really?

https://www.google.com/search?q=pattern ... fId=ChxjMe


Pattern bargaining is a union strategy where an agreement with one key employer (the "pattern setter") becomes the standard or template for negotiations with other employers in the same industry, creating consistent wages, benefits, and conditions, ensuring solidarity and preventing companies from undercutting each other on labor costs. Unions first negotiate a strong deal with a leading firm and then use it as a "take-it-or-leave-it" demand for subsequent companies, leveraging collective power across the sector, famously seen in the auto industry.

Yes really. Why did AC not surpass WJ QOL of life gains? When has ALPA made a take it or leave it ultimatum? Why is Transat WB pay lower than AC? None of these contracts are strong enough to be patterned off of. Shitty little leapfrogging raises and selective gains with hidden concessions is not pattern bargaining. It's a dangerous precedent of settling for "nothing left on the table."

[Fanblade]

Exactly. We can't allow it to take 3-4 bargaining cycles to achieve parity with US wawcon because by that time they will be that much further ahead of us. This "pattern" of gaining crumbs, and "let's get them next round" is its own problem and needs to be broken. ALPA has to actually take a stand and....dare I say it? ...Strike?

You do no favors to your credibility when you describe our last contract gains as "crumbs". It was the largest gain in Canadian aviation history. Was it enough? No.

So you want to go on strike because you think it will create a massive one time payday. Okay let's do that mental exercise.

Strike = Government intervention

Government intervention= arbitration.

Arbitration= comparitors within our border.

Results = Well if 2 Billion over 4 years is crumbs? Results on that scale? micro crumbs?

Now it will take 4-5 bargaining cycles to catch up.

Actually we have this movie still playing in theaters. If you think the FA's are demoralized now? Watch when they get the arbitration results.