The bottom line is if you are on a medevac mission, going to pick up or returning home empty most employers who watch their bottom line will tell you to file medevac, because nav canada fees are waived for medevac flights. End of story.
If you guys really hate it lobby the rule makers
Not a Medevac?...Dont call yourself a Medevac..
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
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tumbleweed
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I think Complexintentions has got it right.
It all comes down to integrity. If you don't need to be called "MedEvac" then don't. I always ask the nurse if speed is of the essence, and if it is, then I tell ATC that we need priority.
A MedCom guy told me once that the RCMP called and asked if a certain flight number going into YYZ was actually MedEvac. This kind of stuff can come back to haunt you if you abuse it.
Don't screw over other pilots. If you have to hold, then boohoo, it fattens the logbook.
It all comes down to integrity. If you don't need to be called "MedEvac" then don't. I always ask the nurse if speed is of the essence, and if it is, then I tell ATC that we need priority.
A MedCom guy told me once that the RCMP called and asked if a certain flight number going into YYZ was actually MedEvac. This kind of stuff can come back to haunt you if you abuse it.
Don't screw over other pilots. If you have to hold, then boohoo, it fattens the logbook.
Careful what you wish for... this project might just get resurrected...tumbleweed wrote:If you guys really hate it lobby the rule makers
Advisory Circular 0142 - MEDEVAC Working Group
Working Group on Medical Evacuation (MEDEVAC) Operations
Not true. At our company, any flight using the company name in the callsign is considered Medevac for the purpose of NavCanada fees. IF we require Medevac ATC status, we file medevac and the callsign reflects our company name, flight number and has 'medevac' tacked on to the end. Speaking only for myself, filing medevac implies that our patient (or the one we're enroute to pick up) requires priority handling. Abusing the status serves only to cheapen the priority handling in a 'boy who cried wolf' kind of way.....tumbleweed wrote:The bottom line is if you are on a medevac mission, going to pick up or returning home empty most employers who watch their bottom line will tell you to file medevac, because nav canada fees are waived for medevac flights. End of story.
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Scuba_Steve
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Having flown (until recently) in doc's neck of the woods (with doc at times YIKES! 
) I'd say I've seen the 'medivac' callsign abused on a number of occasions, we had a company policy of only calling ourselves medivac when the code required it, and the medic requested it. I think it was a handfull of times during my 18 month tenure as a medivac pilot in NWO.
Cheers
) I'd say I've seen the 'medivac' callsign abused on a number of occasions, we had a company policy of only calling ourselves medivac when the code required it, and the medic requested it. I think it was a handfull of times during my 18 month tenure as a medivac pilot in NWO.Cheers
No it isn't. In Canadian aviation, the term MEDEVAC on flight plans and in radiotelephony is regulated on the federal level (read CARS), therefore, in Ontario, Manitoba, BC, etc. it is always supposed to mean the same thing.sdjfkosdjf wrote:Here is my one post ever on this forum. I will respond to this thread because it bugs me that it comes up every few months.
#1: Obviously medevac in Ontario and Manitoba are two different things. So let's talk about medevac in Manitoba specifically (because that's what this thread is about).
No it doesn't work well. It is only because the ATC's in the province have caught on to all the abuse and work around it.sdjfkosdjf wrote:#2: We always file medevac if we are either; a) on our way to pick up a patient, or b) have a patient on board.
#3: We never file medevac for a reposition to base.
Now say what you say about the "priority" system we have here in Manitoba, but I believe it works well.
If you are not a MEDEVAC (read, don't require priority) then why should you be able to cut corners when no other a/c is able to?sdjfkosdjf wrote:For example, if you are coming down to Winnipeg with a patient, and you did not file medevac, you will most likely get, "ABC re-cleared direct BIRLA direct Winnipeg." This adds time to the flight.
Again, if you aren't a MEDEVAC (read, don't require priority), then you should be subject to all the same rules and regulations any other a/c is subject to.sdjfkosdjf wrote:If you file as a medevac, you will get direct Winnipeg almost every time.
You have one thing right, it isn't your decision, here is the definition of a MEDEVAC. If you don't fit the definition, you shouldn't be filing as such.sdjfkosdjf wrote:Now getting closer to Winnipeg, if the controller is forseeing an issue with other aircraft, he will ask you, "ABC, are you a priority?" This is where we ask our flight nurse. He/she will say yes or no, and we'll answer back to the controller. It is not our decision; it is not the pilot's patient, and it is not our nursing license on the line if we say negative priority and something goes wrong in the back... which by the way does happen for those non-believers.
MEDEVAC:
A term used to request Air Traffic Service priority handling
for a medical evacuation flight, based on a medical
emergency in the transport of patients, organ donors,
organs or other urgently needed lifesaving medical
material. The term is to be used on flight plans and if a
pilot determines that a priority is required in
radiotelephony communications.
Again, refer to the definition above, it isn't hard, you either meet the requirements or you don't.sdjfkosdjf wrote:For the non-medevac flyers or the controllers that don't agree... I need to say that having a patient in the air should be kept to the shortest possible time. There are too many things that can go wrong.
Notice it states:
"based on a medical emergency"
If it isn't an emergency, you shouldn't be using the term MEDEVAC.
It also states:
"is to be used on flight plans and if a pilot determines
that a priority is required in radiotelephony communications."
The most important part of this paragraph is "and....priority is required". Not only does the aircraft have to be transporting a patient or other medical material, priority must also be required, otherwise the term MEDEVAC should not be used. If the word "and" was changed to "or" then you could rightly call yourself MEDEVAC any time you were transporting patients.
Again, only if you fit the definition for priority under MEDEVAC status as per the CARS.sdjfkosdjf wrote:In the air, anything can happen, and you have one flight nurse. I believe getting any medical transfer on the ground sooner should take priority over other aircraft.
And believe me the reason this keeps coming up is because you are abusing the system and don't know what the real requirements are for filing MEDEVAC.sdjfkosdjf wrote:So there. Can we please put this to rest now? I'll say again, the "priority" system works well in Manitoba, for getting faster than normal flight times. Most controllers in Manitoba are excellent at helping us just get our job done. We're not trying to purposely make other people burn more fuel, but guess what, better you burning it than us, because your people are sipping on Scotch, and talking business. Our passengers are in pain, crying, or about to pop a baby out.
Believe me, it has come down to minutes.
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justplanecrazy
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zzjayca... nice post bang on.
Our tower sees every medevac company that comes in and out file as a priority medevac. I think I can count on one finger the number of times someone came in without filing medevac or someone file medevac and actually say that they were priority when asked, and that probably goes back two or more years already. Unfortunately after learning what the majority of the calls are in and out of here are, its pretty darn obvious that its system abuse.
Yes we use the priority non-priority crap but not because we find it works good but because its the only way we can try and control our field with the amount of abuse we get with the system. There is no difference in the rules nationaly, only from company to company and this is one area where TC definately needs to stick there nose into. Some companies don't know the difference between a beer run and a flat line. In fact some guys on here could justify how they were a priority both ways when they went home over the Christmas holidays cause anytime that plane is away from its base, it's important to get where you're going and back as fast as you can in case a call comes up.
As a controller I do what I have to and don't provide any uneccessary delays. But really this whole boy crying wolf routine is getting tiring. You can bet I'm not on the edge of my chair trying to get you into here as fast as possible, hell I'll see another one tomorrow, its routine. On the other hand when a commercial carrier starts calling themselves Medevacs, I'm scattering cessnas, delaying departures giving them the fastest autobon I can right to the ground. Hell I know if they're calling themselves medevac it is. We just had an audit and they brought up the point about asking priority. They told us that we can't ask that, they filed medevac, they are automatic priority. I told him I haven't seen more than one that hasn't filed medevac or more than one that filed medevac and was indeed priority in the last two years of work. They said they'd look into it. Hopefully they will and some heads will roll. Until then use your freakin' head while its still attatched and don't abuse the system.
Our tower sees every medevac company that comes in and out file as a priority medevac. I think I can count on one finger the number of times someone came in without filing medevac or someone file medevac and actually say that they were priority when asked, and that probably goes back two or more years already. Unfortunately after learning what the majority of the calls are in and out of here are, its pretty darn obvious that its system abuse.
Yes we use the priority non-priority crap but not because we find it works good but because its the only way we can try and control our field with the amount of abuse we get with the system. There is no difference in the rules nationaly, only from company to company and this is one area where TC definately needs to stick there nose into. Some companies don't know the difference between a beer run and a flat line. In fact some guys on here could justify how they were a priority both ways when they went home over the Christmas holidays cause anytime that plane is away from its base, it's important to get where you're going and back as fast as you can in case a call comes up.
As a controller I do what I have to and don't provide any uneccessary delays. But really this whole boy crying wolf routine is getting tiring. You can bet I'm not on the edge of my chair trying to get you into here as fast as possible, hell I'll see another one tomorrow, its routine. On the other hand when a commercial carrier starts calling themselves Medevacs, I'm scattering cessnas, delaying departures giving them the fastest autobon I can right to the ground. Hell I know if they're calling themselves medevac it is. We just had an audit and they brought up the point about asking priority. They told us that we can't ask that, they filed medevac, they are automatic priority. I told him I haven't seen more than one that hasn't filed medevac or more than one that filed medevac and was indeed priority in the last two years of work. They said they'd look into it. Hopefully they will and some heads will roll. Until then use your freakin' head while its still attatched and don't abuse the system.
We have no effective screening methods to make sure pilots are sane.
— Dr. Herbert Haynes, Federal Aviation Authority.
— Dr. Herbert Haynes, Federal Aviation Authority.
If even one life is saved among all the purported abuse, isn't it's worth it? Why can't you stand to wait 5 minutes while the medevac aircraft gets in ahead? 
Saving human life versus semantics is ridiculous.
That being said, I don't know Manitoba. Are Manitoba medevac operators really that unprofessional? The abuse must be widespread if everyone is talking about it.
Perhaps the criteria for the term "Medevac" should be expanded in the interest of the patient. Patient care is complex and different in each case. Who are you to take a chance with someone's health¿?
It's a "cover-your-ass" kind of world. It's easy to imagine a patient's family suing after they croak down the line. A seemingly well, non-emergency walking and talking meat parcel can circle the drain any time. File medevac. I promise not to freak out on you for the 3 minutes you added to my logbook.
Saving human life versus semantics is ridiculous. That being said, I don't know Manitoba. Are Manitoba medevac operators really that unprofessional? The abuse must be widespread if everyone is talking about it.
Perhaps the criteria for the term "Medevac" should be expanded in the interest of the patient. Patient care is complex and different in each case. Who are you to take a chance with someone's health¿?
It's a "cover-your-ass" kind of world. It's easy to imagine a patient's family suing after they croak down the line. A seemingly well, non-emergency walking and talking meat parcel can circle the drain any time. File medevac. I promise not to freak out on you for the 3 minutes you added to my logbook.
I have got to agree with Doc on this one. Let the medical professionals determine the priority. Is the extra few minutes critical? Who knows other than the medical crew. Many moons ago when I flew air ambulance, the patients were moved as is where is and sometimes they expired onboard. Speed was critical. Nowadays, most patients are stabilized before being transported by air and the success of transport has increased while the need for priority has decreased.
I too have been landing at YWG only to be slowed to 250, 210, 170, vectored for delay to stay behind a "medivac" airplane only to arrive at the FBO simultaeneously and observe no ambulance, no patient, the crew buttons up the airplane and asks for a ride to the hotel...
Did they save a life? No, but they sure wasted 10-15 minutes of mine
I too have been landing at YWG only to be slowed to 250, 210, 170, vectored for delay to stay behind a "medivac" airplane only to arrive at the FBO simultaeneously and observe no ambulance, no patient, the crew buttons up the airplane and asks for a ride to the hotel...
Did they save a life? No, but they sure wasted 10-15 minutes of mine
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niss
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If it bothers you so much Doc I will stop calling myself Cherokee Uniform Bravo Charlie Medivac in the air.
I am sorry for the inconvinience.
I am sorry for the inconvinience.
She’s built like a Steakhouse, but she handles like a Bistro.
Let's kick the tires, and light the fires.... SHIT! FIRE! EMERGENCY CHECKLIST!
Let's kick the tires, and light the fires.... SHIT! FIRE! EMERGENCY CHECKLIST!
Just to give a glimpse at the other side of the coin, if you ARE a medevac and need to get on the ground, for the love of god please tell ATC on first contact.
A few weeks ago an operator who shall remain nameless called me inbound to YXE on a VFR flight plan. It was also one of the rare times that XE had 4 jets (WJA, JAZZ and 2 bizjets) all pitch up together. I got a sh*tty call from the tower asking for a gap on final "for the medevac I had just transferred" to them. By that stage it was a little late (big props to the Lear driver who very obligingly took an orbit on final to get the medevac in).
Come on folks, we're all playing the same game.
A few weeks ago an operator who shall remain nameless called me inbound to YXE on a VFR flight plan. It was also one of the rare times that XE had 4 jets (WJA, JAZZ and 2 bizjets) all pitch up together. I got a sh*tty call from the tower asking for a gap on final "for the medevac I had just transferred" to them. By that stage it was a little late (big props to the Lear driver who very obligingly took an orbit on final to get the medevac in).
Come on folks, we're all playing the same game.
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bob sacamano
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justplanecrazy
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...
Last edited by justplanecrazy on Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
We have no effective screening methods to make sure pilots are sane.
— Dr. Herbert Haynes, Federal Aviation Authority.
— Dr. Herbert Haynes, Federal Aviation Authority.
doc wrote:
the the DFO i was refering to was the GOV.
Also I know which avitat you are talking about. If you saw what you just said; this means 10 to 15 minutes after landing. This is why there is no medical crews around. it only takes a few mintues to off load and the ambulance to leave. I know we stay a min of 4 hours on average for a call because of the crapy emerg that city has.
like a i said earlier come and ask don't freak out and be an igorant, whining baby.
Also ATC always asks when they just see blabla 123 with no medivec, just to make sure. This also happens when you are filing. So if you do hear it don't freak out beacuse its the same call sign medevac or not.
well let see: if you read what i said earlier, you would see when we are empty (not going to a call) or repostion, we don't call ourselfs medevac.this particular aircraft was still parked there three hours later. The crew got out and put prop ties and plugs in place. This flight, you know NOTHING about! Who's the "ignorant, whining bitch"?
the the DFO i was refering to was the GOV.
Also I know which avitat you are talking about. If you saw what you just said; this means 10 to 15 minutes after landing. This is why there is no medical crews around. it only takes a few mintues to off load and the ambulance to leave. I know we stay a min of 4 hours on average for a call because of the crapy emerg that city has.
like a i said earlier come and ask don't freak out and be an igorant, whining baby.
Also ATC always asks when they just see blabla 123 with no medivec, just to make sure. This also happens when you are filing. So if you do hear it don't freak out beacuse its the same call sign medevac or not.
Here is a SIMPLE fix. Only call "medivac" when you are a MEDIVAC. That means priority. How hard is it. Man you have no idea how many times i've seen "medivac" land get out of the airplane with NO patient and walk off and the airplane doesn't move for a couple hours. That is crap.
Why should you get to call medivac and save your company a couple bucks when you aren't priority. If thats so, i'm gonna start calling myself a medivac everytime i have someone in a wheelchair going to an appointment or with a broken leg or whatever. If you aren't a Medivac, don't call yourself a medivac. Its really really simple.
We aren't asking for true medivacs to not call themselves medivacs, its the ones who abuse the system. There should be no reason for ATC to ask if your priority. If you aren't then you shouldn't be calling yourself a medivac, if you are a priority then damn rights you should.
So simple, why do the sewer tube pilots not understand this?
Why should you get to call medivac and save your company a couple bucks when you aren't priority. If thats so, i'm gonna start calling myself a medivac everytime i have someone in a wheelchair going to an appointment or with a broken leg or whatever. If you aren't a Medivac, don't call yourself a medivac. Its really really simple.
We aren't asking for true medivacs to not call themselves medivacs, its the ones who abuse the system. There should be no reason for ATC to ask if your priority. If you aren't then you shouldn't be calling yourself a medivac, if you are a priority then damn rights you should.
So simple, why do the sewer tube pilots not understand this?
I have a rebuttal to all you "if-fers" out there regarding 'if' the patient's condition were to suddenly change.
2 things:
1) if the patient isn't stable, they aren't even allowed to call a medevac at the nursing station, the patient has to stay put until they are a low enough risk til they can be put on a plane.
2) it's the nurse's call, not the pilots' whether you're a priority or not. Sorry pilots, but you may think you're god, but you aren't a doctor(or nurse) too.
The 2 biggest company's in manitoba(one's gone now) and another still operating were the biggest offenders when I was out there, and I witnessed with my own eyes, as well as being by the pilots working there.
2 things:
1) if the patient isn't stable, they aren't even allowed to call a medevac at the nursing station, the patient has to stay put until they are a low enough risk til they can be put on a plane.
2) it's the nurse's call, not the pilots' whether you're a priority or not. Sorry pilots, but you may think you're god, but you aren't a doctor(or nurse) too.
The 2 biggest company's in manitoba(one's gone now) and another still operating were the biggest offenders when I was out there, and I witnessed with my own eyes, as well as being by the pilots working there.
PPP...we saw the doors open...we saw the pilots close the door...there was no patient in the aircraft....I just tossed the subject out for debate...but, I guess some must resort to name calling? So, go right ahead, and call yourself a "medevac" on every leg, of every flight..I dont really GARA.
And justplanecrazy...bang on!
And justplanecrazy...bang on!
Here's a more simple fix... all those running dedicated air ambulances with a patient on board say "yes" when asked if you are priority whether you have a stable patient with a broken leg coming down from the arctic or a mama about to pop out a baby with the doctor on board trying to hold it in.
If you all say "yes" then there won't be anymore confusion when ATC askes if you are a "priority" and these useless debates on AvCanada can forever cease.
If you all say "yes" then there won't be anymore confusion when ATC askes if you are a "priority" and these useless debates on AvCanada can forever cease.
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JohnnyHotRocks
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It's actually not crap...there are many times when aircraft are dispatched to a specific airport in order to retrieve "harvested" organs...these organs have a very short "shelf life", so the airplane (a time sensitive MEDEVAC) has to be standing by when the doctors and organs arrive. Know one is ever sure how quickly/slowly these harvesting operations go, so as far as the airplane is concerned, the sooner it is on the ground and waiting, the better....just so happens that sometimes the crew has to wait for a few hours.Man you have no idea how many times i've seen "medivac" land get out of the airplane with NO patient and walk off and the airplane doesn't move for a couple hours. That is crap.
Somebody took some of the alphabet magnets off the fridge..............bob sacamano wrote:Off topic, but since manitoba is getting the pounding now, why is the ATIS in YWG 99% of the time two hours old?
Seriously, it's not an excuse, but Winnipeg Tower certainly has some staffing issues at the moment.
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Dust Devil
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hind sight
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bob sacamano
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I's been about 5 years since I left the ATC business, but the last tower I worked in had an automated atis that broadcasted everything on it's own. It didn't need anyone to plug any information in it.Jerricho wrote:Somebody took some of the alphabet magnets off the fridge..............bob sacamano wrote:Off topic, but since manitoba is getting the pounding now, why is the ATIS in YWG 99% of the time two hours old?
Seriously, it's not an excuse, but Winnipeg Tower certainly has some staffing issues at the moment.
Even if staffing is low, an atis usually takes no more than 2min to put together.
Not complaining, just wondering
