Course change requires a clearance

Jerricho · Post by **Jerricho** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:28 am

Howitzer wrote:i've heard controllers clear me "direct calgary". Well calgary what, ndb, vor, airport?

They certainly should be telling you exactly where you are cleared to, either airport, nav-aid or local booze shop (especially in instances like YQT where the VOR isn't co-located with the airfield).

Beechball · Post by **Beechball** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:36 am

Actually, I was told by YYZ centre that when it comes to an initial route clearance or a re-route, they look at your equipment suffix. If you are RNAV and they clear you to "Calgary" they are directly referencing the airport co-ordinates. If your not RNAV equipped they will clear you to the primary NAVAID at the destination airport and they will state the appropriate NAVAID in question... Ex: "Calgary VOR".

In other words, if your RNAV equipped and you hear "Cleared to XXX" it's by default the airport. If you get "Cleared to XXX NDB" then it's the NDB (or other assorted NAVAId of course...

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:37 am

CPL_ATC makes a valid point.

For you bigger bus drivers as well, if you're planning on off-setting for wake-turbulence, just ask ATC before you do it, yes we do notice when we see you turning, even just a mile off airway.

airway · Post by **airway** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:25 am

Beechball wrote:Actually, I was told by YYZ centre that when it comes to an initial route clearance or a re-route, they look at your equipment suffix. If you are RNAV and they clear you to "Calgary" they are directly referencing the airport co-ordinates. If your not RNAV equipped they will clear you to the primary NAVAID at the destination airport and they will state the appropriate NAVAID in question... Ex: "Calgary VOR".

In other words, if your RNAV equipped and you hear "Cleared to XXX" it's by default the airport. If you get "Cleared to XXX NDB" then it's the NDB (or other assorted NAVAId of course...

All controllers may not do it the same way. You shold confirm where the controller wants you to go. See this thread.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... highlight=

Wasn't Me · Post by **Wasn't Me** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:09 am

As pilots flying IFR we must always have a clear understanding of what we are to do. In the last few years with the abvent of GPS direct routings have become more popular. Remember when some says " clearded to Calgary" it should be made clear as to what facility if they mean airport say airport or BCN or VOR but just "cleared to Calgary' is not complete without "Airport" in the phrase.

ZBB118.10 · Post by **ZBB118.10** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:59 am

Shady McDick said...

-Shut up nerd.

pointyertoes · Post by **pointyertoes** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:32 pm

I for one heartily appreciate cpl_atc's input.
I'd rather suss out potential trouble spots here on the forum than get a request to call centre on landing (or getting a call from enforcement).

Thanks again for a professional post.

Bookem Lou · Post by **Bookem Lou** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:07 pm

cpl_atc, regardless of whether I needed it or not, thanks for the advice. It's not often we hear from people behind the radar screen and it's this type of material that makes the forum valuable.

ZBB118.10, a while ago you wrote that we can all learn something at 250hrs or 25,000. You should heed your own advice.

balls · Post by **balls** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:00 pm

Hmm...seems pretty hard to please the cpl-atc guy. Sorry it's such a touchy subject, and appears hard to discuss without emotion. Why so?

SLOP. No clearance required.

Wxx deviation, a clearance is a nicety, not a requirement. I tell you what I'm doing, and we come to an agreement.

Emergency of any kind. I tell you.

ie, ETOPs engine fail off course, intercept the 15nm offset. Pressurization problem...

Etc, etc.

CPL_ATC, you made the the statement off an absolute. It just ain't so. There are cases when you will deviate and let the controller know the plan as soon as possible.

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:40 pm

Balls did you not read the entire post? If so go back and re-read it.

This has already been discussed. Cpt_atc isn't talking about the etc's. He is talking about everyday "NORMAL" operations. How many times a week do those etc's come into effect?

How often do you not have 20 seconds before you have to alter course? I am betting not that often, if so you should dig into why it keeps happening somebody is doing their job wrong.

Lurch

FamilyGuy · Post by **FamilyGuy** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:16 pm

Balls, with WX around a clearence to deviate isn't a nicety, its going to save your life - if you fly big iron in congested airspace anyway. If you're deviating, chances are everyone is deviating and most likely going for the same hole. Tell ATC after the fact in busy airspace and I guarantee you'll be lucky to be making a call on the ground - with not so clean shorts.

Nice attitude....something about your ego writing cheques....

CP · Post by CP » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:35 am

Holy cow! Do I ever feel lucky. Ive been getting away with this awful behavior for 30 years. Must be a real serious issue eh?

2milefinal · Post by **2milefinal** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:46 am

So let me get this straight you are cleared direct Airport 'X', half-way to airport 'X' you look on your app. plate see a 5 mile fix (or whatever) that will work good for the rwy that you would like to land on, so you just go there, without talking to ATC. WOW!

I am glad there are guys like cpl_atc keeping an eye on us.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:42 am

balls wrote: Wxx deviation, a clearance is a nicety, not a requirement. I tell you what I'm doing, and we come to an agreement.

Yes ATC can't force you through something or to do something unsafe, but you can't force ATC to do it either, making a course change for weather without a clearence is not a good idea and if you're in Communication with ATC anyway why the hell would you? If you're aware of big weather ahead that wasn't planned for, simply ask ATC, he will let you know where you can go to avoid it,*

(*Pilots know the weather more accurately, but I mean where you can go without smashing into someone else doing the same thing)

Most of the time you can deviate in whichever direction you like, including up or down, but doing so without asking ATC is I believe is a poor decision.

Don't forget here major storm systems don't just all of a sudden pop up 3 miles in front of you, normally you have quite a bit of time to decide on what you would like to do, and you can ask ATC what other aircrafts experiences have been, shortest route around the weather others have taken etc.

While ATC can provide no definate answer to the size and condition of a storm system, they do know about other airplanes trying to as said above, go for the same hole.

They will get you through but you'd be far better off listening to ATC on how to get to where you want to go, then just doing it and telling him after, I suspect if you did that and caused a safety issue, a visit from enforcement would be coming shortly after.

Conquest Driver · Post by **Conquest Driver** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:46 am

Good post cpl-atc

So, we're getting a "heads up" that we need to be a bit more precise as to where we're going and where we're cleared to. If ATC is getting concerned we can all bet that TC enforcement isn't going to be far behind.

In the past week or so I've received and accepted "ATC clears Barnburner 123 to the xyz airport". My aircraft is not GPS certified.

So, yesterday I filed "ABC airport, A2 airway, XYZ airport. As far as I'm concerned, that leaves no doubt in anyone's mind that I'm going to lock onto the airway and stay on it till I get a clearance to the contrary. We can quibble about the sudden apearance of storm cells or UFO's in another post.

Just a note that some people do read and react to these posts. Thanks for the "heads up".

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:46 am

Is valium not covered by NavCan's employee health plan?

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:47 am

CP wrote:Holy cow! Do I ever feel lucky. Ive been getting away with this awful behavior for 30 years. Must be a real serious issue eh?

ATC is all about ensuring airplanes stay apart.

It may seem like a moot point, and I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but a pilot trying to get his 200 passengers to destination early by 2 minutes, could (although a slim chance) be risking safety with multiple other airplanes.

As cpl_atc has eluded to ATC has the big picture, pilots don't, there is no room for bickering here or "That's stupid and over-restrictive"

When you're flying IFR pilots MUST listen to ATC's direction.

People say being 100NM out, and going to a fix 5NM off of the cleared course is no big deal:

Well think about an airplane flying 3000NM, if they are in CMNPS airspace for example and end up 25NM off course (Relatively much smaller of a course change), that's a GNE and more than one pilot has lost his job because of just that.

balls · Post by **balls** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:25 am

FamilyGuy wrote:Balls, with WX around a clearence to deviate isn't a nicety, its going to save your life - if you fly big iron in congested airspace anyway. If you're deviating, chances are everyone is deviating and most likely going for the same hole. Tell ATC after the fact in busy airspace and I guarantee you'll be lucky to be making a call on the ground - with not so clean shorts.

Nice attitude....something about your ego writing cheques....

I don't get the last line. Why the nasty tone?

My comments were that cpl_atc guy made comments about an absolute condition wrt to heading change. My discussion is about that Any change comment that he had made. Originally, I said he had not made an entirely accurate comment. CPL_ATC asked my to expand on that comment.

I responded It's not an absolute as he had indicated. I used examples. I probably should have quoted his post to which I was responding.

The examples were meant to point out situations where a "any change" is not accurate, such as offsets on NAT tracks, weather, and some emergency conditions.

I did not disagree, that a clearance is desireable for weather deviation. Given a situation where I want to deviate, it will be to ask for the clearance first, of course, or failing a clearance, seek a mutual agreement, as I said in the previous post. If it is crunch time, and necessary to deviate, in the end, I will be informing what the action is - bottomline as an example of "any change" not being an absolute.

A side comment - A clearance is only valid when you accept it. A pilot has to make the decision if that is prudent and reasonable course of action before you accept it.

About your comment of a phone call on the ground - If you have to make a call on the ground, or file an ASR, no problem. That is part of the job. You do have to be able to defend the decisions you make. If it is deviating without ATS/ATC approval, then it would have to be a situation that required that action, and you would have to be ready to be questioned.[/b]

zzjayca · Post by **zzjayca** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:42 am

Hedley wrote:Is valium not covered by NavCan's employee health plan?

Obviously, for some pilots, intelligence isn't required or covered either.

This is a cut and dry situation. Unless a/c safety will be affected, you MUST comply with any ATC clearance or instruction that is received and understood by you. Maybe the "understanding" is the problem from an intelligence perspective?

Balls:

You don't seem to get it. Please refer to the above intelligence comment. NO ONE is saying you can't deviate if a/c safety is a factor. Even after your first post both the controllers and your fellow pilots address your comments quite satisfactory.

I believe your continuing comments regarding being able to deviate from an ATC clearance/instruction is what is causing the attitude directed towards you. Again, refer to the intelligence comment earlier in my post.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:48 am

you MUST comply

Would you mind terribly, dressing up in leather when you talk dirty to me like that?

CP · Post by CP » Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:04 pm

Ha! That was damn appropriare Hedly. Bravo. And funny too.

FamilyGuy · Post by **FamilyGuy** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:42 pm

Balls I do apologize, I was rude, curt and didn't quite fully comprehend what your posts were getting at.

However, to quote you "A side comment - A clearance is only valid when you accept it. A pilot has to make the decision if that is prudent and reasonable course of action before you accept it. "

That is a correct statement. However it must be taken in context. You as the pilot accepted the clearence when you read back the initial clearence - it could have been on clx delivery or just after push back. It could be later on dep when they say "clrd dct YYY". If 200 miles later you need to deviate for WX, you MUST obtain clearence to do so - UNLESS the safety of the aircraft is in immediate danger. You are also correct that if you get it wrong and fly first ask later, you will hopefully be given a chance to explain yourself.

I've flown through some nasty stuff - mostly a result of my own stoopidity - and while I've never overstressed an airplane due WX turb etc I do know that metal to metal contact while airborne is always going to be bad. I also do know that in flight breakups have happened (too many times) because the pilot flew into something he shouldn't have - hopefully NOT a result of not knowing/thinking he could ask ATC for deviations - you can and should. It's a serious issue.

Tthe point of all of this and why I'm wasting time typing this is simple - let s be careful and not make bad decisions based on anyonmous internet drivel. IFR separation isn't a game, the good folks in ATC run with some tight margins and the system works best when everyone is on the same page - hence the regs.

Hedly I don't do any drugs but would appreciate more nice bondo pics. Can we all spank and make up?

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:26 pm

The nit-picking on the original post is irrelevant.

Cpl was talking about people who delibaretly violate the clearance to try and save time or whatever. This would be more than obvious to an investigator, no matter how much some people might try and fake a weather emergency (in November, no less, with nothing on the EC radars), or a goose that suddenly made them track directly towards a GPS point.

Am I right, TC Guy?

balls · Post by **balls** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:10 pm

Well, it appears I have nothing to add here, trying to carry on a converstation with cpl_atc. I'm outta here before Christmas after 38 years and some months in the business. I'm outta this forum too. Either way, I'm sure I'll be missed -

Have at'er lads. I hope you can be more civil to people trying to pass on some thoughts in the future.

Signing off.

PS. - I'll be reading about yall once in a while from warmer climes.