I have question for ya Mel.
Taking off of 24R, heading for Ottawa , Montreal...points East. What sort of procedure do you like to see on departure. I see some people climb at 200 knots (or flaps up speed) till a turn in the direction of the destination, so were not going fast in the wrong direction. I have also seen guys VNAV it to 250kts going the wrong way becasue they say thats what ATC is looking for.
I am wondering what, if anything, you guys/gals would prefer from us pilots. Thank you.
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Stick-Shaker
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sierra yankee
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That was a trial, since discontinued, of some new procedures at the terminal bedpost sectors. You might have noticed that the crossing restrictions changed for awhile as well at the non-straight-in fixes (ie. FLINE at 11k for jets rather than the previous, and current, 9k).
The experiment with the bedpost sector controller not assigning the runway was in response to pilot complaints about getting multiple runway changes while inbound. By the time you get into terminal's airspace, they pretty much know for sure what runway it's going to be (unless you request something different and they can accommodate you, but that's rare), whereas if I have to tell you on initial contact, 100 miles back, I can only go based on what Terminal is doing at the time. There's a decent chance (particularly if the weather is unpredictable and/or snow removal is in progress) that things will change, possibly more than once, between that time and when you actually reach terminal's airspace. It happened to me this morning and the pilot wasn't very happy at having to reprogram the whole arrival. But the only real alternative (that I can see anyway) is to leave you hanging until you talk to terminal, which, from my perspective, seems less safe. That's a lot of heads-down programming time at a point in the flight where I'd imagine you'd much rather be monitoring what the airplane is doing, looking out for traffic, doing checklists etc..
I'd be interested to hear any comments on this. While we as controllers have a pretty rigid set of procedures to follow in these kinds of cases, with no real room for individual discretion, we do try to keep the pilots in the picture as much as possible and advise of changes in as timely a manner as we can.
The experiment with the bedpost sector controller not assigning the runway was in response to pilot complaints about getting multiple runway changes while inbound. By the time you get into terminal's airspace, they pretty much know for sure what runway it's going to be (unless you request something different and they can accommodate you, but that's rare), whereas if I have to tell you on initial contact, 100 miles back, I can only go based on what Terminal is doing at the time. There's a decent chance (particularly if the weather is unpredictable and/or snow removal is in progress) that things will change, possibly more than once, between that time and when you actually reach terminal's airspace. It happened to me this morning and the pilot wasn't very happy at having to reprogram the whole arrival. But the only real alternative (that I can see anyway) is to leave you hanging until you talk to terminal, which, from my perspective, seems less safe. That's a lot of heads-down programming time at a point in the flight where I'd imagine you'd much rather be monitoring what the airplane is doing, looking out for traffic, doing checklists etc..
I'd be interested to hear any comments on this. While we as controllers have a pretty rigid set of procedures to follow in these kinds of cases, with no real room for individual discretion, we do try to keep the pilots in the picture as much as possible and advise of changes in as timely a manner as we can.
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sierra yankee
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Sorry, not a terminal guy .. though I'd guess that (like any controller) if the departure guy doesn't like what he sees, he'll give you a speed. In general, it doesn't matter too much unless there's traffic ahead of and/or behind you going to the same place. If you want to stay at minimum clean speed until you get higher and/or on course, and there's nobody running up your rear, you can do that.
However (based on my VERY limited observations in Terminal, and I welcome any corrections from VF or other TCU guys) keep in mind that you may well not be helping your cause out that much by flying slowly in the "wrong" direction. The way the airspace is structured, if you're departing off the 24s and turning back around to the east, there's a certain number of miles that you will have to fly in the "wrong" direction to steer clear of the arrivals box and the LINNG corridor. It's the same number of miles regardless of whether you're going 200 knots or 250 -- it just takes 25% longer to fly them in the former case, and hence you're delaying the time until you get higher/on course.
That's assuming they keep you low (I think 7k is the usual altitude) and turn you back to the east underneath the arrivals before giving you higher. I know sometimes they turn you southbound, parallel to the LINNG arrivals but west of them, and climb you above them before turning you on course. In that situation, my advice would be to keep it slow airspeed-wise and put all your energy into climbing like a fighter, because departure is (usually) just waiting until you have vertical with the inbounds before turning you on course.
Hopefully I haven't totally misrepresented what happens in the TCU!
However (based on my VERY limited observations in Terminal, and I welcome any corrections from VF or other TCU guys) keep in mind that you may well not be helping your cause out that much by flying slowly in the "wrong" direction. The way the airspace is structured, if you're departing off the 24s and turning back around to the east, there's a certain number of miles that you will have to fly in the "wrong" direction to steer clear of the arrivals box and the LINNG corridor. It's the same number of miles regardless of whether you're going 200 knots or 250 -- it just takes 25% longer to fly them in the former case, and hence you're delaying the time until you get higher/on course.
That's assuming they keep you low (I think 7k is the usual altitude) and turn you back to the east underneath the arrivals before giving you higher. I know sometimes they turn you southbound, parallel to the LINNG arrivals but west of them, and climb you above them before turning you on course. In that situation, my advice would be to keep it slow airspeed-wise and put all your energy into climbing like a fighter, because departure is (usually) just waiting until you have vertical with the inbounds before turning you on course.
Hopefully I haven't totally misrepresented what happens in the TCU!
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Stick-Shaker
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Well, ain't that something. I was encouraging the FO's not to accelerate until heading more in an eastbound direction. Well, I stand corrected. I guess that was airmanship habits left over from years of flying B99's in the north that don't have anything to do with the real world of jets in YYZ.sierra yankee wrote: if you're departing off the 24s and turning back around to the east, there's a certain number of miles that you will have to fly in the "wrong" direction to steer clear of the arrivals box and the LINNG corridor. It's the same number of miles regardless of whether you're going 200 knots or 250 -- it just takes 25% longer to fly them in the former case, and hence you're delaying the time until you get higher/on course.
In your world that makes sense, now it does in my world too. Thanks for the advice!!
