North-Wright.....

jim_from_texas · Post by **jim_from_texas** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:12 pm

I love a 4 day trip with a loud mouth like yourself who thinks he's hot shit. Let me guess you are the best of the best, get all the chicks, drive a benz and have a 15 inch dick. Although you probably like to perceive yourself like that, in reality you are a 20 year old computer geek with a ppl, masturbate to a picture of your underage male neighbour, drive a 1989 Ford tempo and work at your local cineplex where you have a big responsibility of cleaning shitters every hour on the hour.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:10 pm

LMFAO..... now that was funny.

I don't think he owns a car actually.....

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:18 pm

Think about it. North-Wright has the right idea. They are raising the bar, raising the standard. Soon this will be the requirement everywhere for airlines big and small. This is benefitting the company I am sure in many ways. I think someone was using their head when they started this policy.

With increased automation flying seems to be becoming increasingly de-skilled at the airline level at least.

If you're too smart, you'll probably go out of your mind from the sheer boredom of sitting on autopilot. So maybe being too educated could be seen as a bad thing. Get bored too easily.

Besides, aviation feeds off low-cost pilot labor.... You start raising the requirements to be a pilot, and you'll have less pilots and the pilots you have will want more money. This is not good from an owners point of view.

overshoot · Post by **overshoot** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:39 am

Cat Driver,

Why does being a pilot have to be a marginaly educated position. Why do we always have to be expecting the most for the least. Listen, I have no doubts that some of the best pilots out there have only high school, but look around you. Even truck drivers are going to school for a year or more for some companies. As for Jim_From_Texas; good for you. You raise a good point. I am happy that you have done so well for yourself. But, like you said, "I wish I had gone to university". That is what I mean. When will the standard change across the board. Why are people right out of high shool still just getting their licence without schooling. It will bite them in the ass one day I promise.

And Shady, look around... you are the sucker. HAHA

pilot to dispatch · Post by **pilot to dispatch** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:17 am

DOC is Gay!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:40 am

Cat Driver,

Why does being a pilot have to be a marginaly educated position. Why do we always have to be expecting the most for the least. Listen, I have no doubts that some of the best pilots out there have only high school, but look around you.

I doesen't " have " to be, you can be a pilot with a doctorate in ten subjects....

.....I do not understand your reference about expecting the most for the least, the reality of being a pilot is the requirements for being one are so basic that the teachers are usually very young with almost zero experience in aviation, therefore the occupation of flying an airplane is about the same level of difficult as driving a truck.

A smart person would get the most education they can and then get a pilots license as a sideline. After getting a degree or two the effort required to get a pilot license is a joke.

Cat

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:42 am

pilot to dispatch...you still wearing that sexy leather thong I gave you on your birthday? Hugs and kisses!

jim_from_texas · Post by **jim_from_texas** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:41 am

Just how useful can a degree in psychology, engineering.... actually be 20 years later if you lose your medical? Why would anyone want to hire you for one of these positions when you don't have a day of experience ''psyching'' or engineering? If that were to happen to me I would just go to a trade school become plumber, welder.... and my chances of employment (self employment) go way, way up. Getting a degree to dress up your resume so you can become an educated airline pilot is fine. The times are certainly coming again where the airlines WILL stop hiring and the longer you stay in school your flying bug might dissapear and you could end up with a real job. I don't want a real job, never have. Like I said even though I wish I had gone to uni, lived in a dorm, drunk like there is no tomorrow, parties, girls, my mom and pop pay for everything.... I couldn't afford both and especially not the flight college program.

canpilot · Post by **canpilot** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:20 pm

Overshoot,

University is not the be- all and end all. As "Jim" had indicated you can be sucessful without a university degree. Also, why do alot of flying companies indicate they want a flight college DIPLOMA over an actual BA/ Bsc or even MA? Common sense indicates that someone with an ACTUAL degree vs. college flight diploma has more education.

Secondly, just because someone goes to university or FLIGHT college doesen't exactly make them a better pilot. I know some people who go through their whole entire post secondary careers, barely passing. Do you propose that flying companies require university transcripts as well? How will you sort out the "A" students from the C-/ C+ students? All university does is opens the mind, seeing alternate viewpoints. It also teaches you coping skills, study habits etc. You can learn this anywhere.

Although I am attending university and flying etc. I do not see myself as superior to people without degrees. I am doing my degree for other reasons. eg. backup if I loose my medial etc. ..

Also, if we as pilots go and get university degrees do you think this will improve our working conditions? I doubt it. Why should pilot's go and get degrees and work at the same pay scale. Getting into this industry is already diffucult and HIGHLY expensive. Why do you want to increase the training cost of being a pilot by getting a degree we will do F&^* all with? Do the pilots at Air Canada JAZZ make more than the non-degree holders? Why should we as pilots invest in something that isn't going to improve our flying or working conditions/ pay scale?

When I go up north to work for some lodge in Northern Ontario etc to work the dock or whatever, do you think they will care if I have a degree? NO! What they will care about is my work ethic etc. and my flying ability. * or at least so I hear*

Also, what about the pilots who can't afford a degree, who are already working 3 jobs to pay for their training? University/ flight college isn't financially viable for everyone!

Untimately, would you want a pilot with a degree flying you plane who is a complete cluster F&%** or a damn good driver without the degree? You call. I know my choice.
end of rant-

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:02 pm

overshoot wrote:This one's for all you non schoolers,

Welcome to the 21st century. Where can you get a career without having an education?
You can't make more that $80 grand in this day and age without an education.

For you people without an education, my recommendation is to go to school. Raise the bar. Make being an educated pilot the industry standard. Make your job worth more than 80 thou. Think about it. North-Wright has the right idea. They are raising the bar, raising the standard. .

How many aviation college grads did Regen*y and ne*jet have that paid for that further education, for that extra PHD in PPC.....

Yeah, everyone in aviation should go out and get an MBA so air canada will raise the 30k/yr wage to 35k/yr because everyone is educated.

Doctors and Lawyers don't make a fortune because they're educated, if you think that, you've got problems.... They make that kind of coin because they're ORGANIZED and have created associations that limit the number of applicants, number of members and lobby the gov't to not allow anyone to do self diagnosis(and bill medicare) and/or fight for themselves or others in courts...

and furthermore, a hooker can cost over 500/hr, and some are making a killing of over 200k(tax free), female adult video stars make over 100k as well....

Sorry, education doesn't equate to being smart and making lots of money....

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:01 pm

and furthermore, a hooker can cost over 500/hr, and some are making a killing of over 200k(tax free), female adult video stars make over 100k as well....

And you know this because you had to do some "research" to see "what kind of sin you're up against", right?

Seriously, Kimchie Boy, those kinds of dollars are reserved the A Row Room Salon girls... not the C row on Hooker Hill in Itawon.

Youngback · Post by **Youngback** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:44 pm

Canpilot, I don't think degrees should be viewed as something to get you higher pay or a better job. I view University as an investment in yourself. You are correct that going to University does not neccessarily make you a better pilot but an education, even if it isn't used, will open a lot of doors for you. I have not been to University although I wish I had the time and money. That said though, I have been taking courses as a volunteer firefighter and will have my basic firefighter and paramedic courses paid for. It's all about initiative and a degree is just one of many measurements of that.

canpilot · Post by **canpilot** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:37 pm

Youngback,

Totally agree. Perhaps my articulation of my point was a little uncler. I was responding to a post from another avcanada member, who indicated that a degree would net a higher pay scale and better working conditions in the industry.

Personally, I'm not at University to make more money, hell, i'm not in aviation to make big $ ( I know it won't happen). I'm going into avaition because I have a passion for it and I can't see myself doing anything else..I love AVIATION. Similarly, i'm in university to expand my mind, and further pusrsue my interest in geogrpahy, give myself a second career option, and become a more well rounded individual.

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:06 am

i'm not in aviation to make big $ ( I know it won't happen). I'm going into avaition because I have a passion for it and I can't see myself doing anything else..I love AVIATION.

Cute, but bear in mind that this mentality is what is responsible for a very significant percentage of pilots forced to live on wages that are dramatically disconnected from their experience/training level.

It still boggles my mind that a 19 year-old a high school drop-out with nothing can make significantly more money driving a truck in Alberta than an Air Canada new hire...

Juggs · Post by **Juggs** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:59 am

It still boggles my mind that a 19 year-old a high school drop-out with nothing can make significantly more money driving a truck in Alberta than an Air Canada new hire...

Find me a four year old kid that lists driving a truck in Northern Alberta as one of the top three things they want to do when they grow up.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:07 am

Kelowna Pilot wrote: Seriously, Kimchie Boy, those kinds of dollars are reserved the A Row Room Salon girls... not the C row on Hooker Hill in Itawon.

i know you can find a $5 crack whore on jarvis, but you can also go online and check out all the "students" that come to Canada, make a 100k in a year and go back home, and yes, some ops on spadina are run by snake heads and they pimp off slaves but whatever...

Anyyhoot, "education," why aren't all BA's making 100k a year, how did Haig manage to slaughter so many troops(on his side) with such an "education," back then education was an elitist thing and only the posh would go and the universities would still turn out snobby dumb brats....

today universities have 100k capacity and turn out degrees to everyone.... dumb or not....

It still boggles my mind that a 19 year-old a high school drop-out with nothing can make significantly more money driving a truck in Alberta than an Air Canada new hire...

And an air canada pilot will make more money than the divinci's and the picaso's(arts degree = starving artist).

And they also make more than the idiots in BA Gym courses who complain about not getting enough funding to do anything...

Aviation is like AAA hockey or being a art...

Some will make it to the NHL, sell their art fly for cathay.

Some won't make the draft, some will be on welfare painting and some will die on the ramp.

Will education help you, probably not, why dump 30k and 4 years into a BA in music/dance when you can spend that 30k at SGL and get on with their first officer program get 1000 hours on an RJ, or buy a type rating and go fly for indian air, or go and get a JAR conversion.. If flying is all you want and you'd rather be dead if you couldn't fly, you're much better off putting the 30k into furthering your aviation career and a ba or diploma in an unrelated field is a waste of money....

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:15 am

Juggs wrote:

It still boggles my mind that a 19 year-old a high school drop-out with nothing can make significantly more money driving a truck in Alberta than an Air Canada new hire...
Find me a four year old kid that lists driving a truck in Northern Alberta as one of the top three things they want to do when they grow up.

and that's the problem... Society, Mcguinty doesn't even want to give a kid a drivers license if he drops out of highschool....

SO, with his logic, force the kid to stay in high school another 4 years, get a diploma and go drive a truck.....

Instead of dropping out and driving a truck..

And someone here thinks a truck driver with a BA would earn even more...

If we stopped pampering kids like we do today and go back to the old days where a guidance councillor came to you and said, billy your an idiot, get out after grade 6 and go fly/drive a truck, start microsoft, but no, everyone pampers these kids and they all think they're king shit and hey all stick around go to university and then graduate with a ba in dance and then think they deserve some sort of ultra high paying job.... and the only place that will hire them is a a mcjob, but because they're "educated" they think they're above that.. lol

You could probably get further ahead in life if you just spent the extra money and go to upper canada college(and whatever the girl version is) and meet all the yuppies befriend them and they'll end up hooking you up with a job at their daddies companies. if UCC is to expensive, join the gym or golf club that these ceo's play at pertend to fit in and move up....

Or bang their kids up... =)

canpilot · Post by **canpilot** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:19 am

Kelowna pilot,

Don't take me so literally...LOL..I'm all about fair pay etc. I'm not one of those who is about to go and work for free..

You can have a profession and not be all about the money...eg. my doctor for example Take my doctor for example -"I enjoy helping people, I didn't get into the medical profession for the money." * I know they make more than pilots ..etc.

All I was basically saying is that i'm not going into this industry with some pre-concieved idea of being a millionaire driving a C185. Should that C185 pilot be paid decently? ABSOLUTELY..

I am aware of the poor working conditions in this industry. I also agree that we should be paid a wage that is FAIR for the level of training undertaken etc...and that current wages within the industry are not reflective of this. At some point I want to have a wife, kids, a house etc...I also understand that many pilots * friends of mine included* are forced to have extra jobs/ dual income to live comfortably..THIS IS NOT acceptable..

Anyways....

Youngback · Post by **Youngback** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:33 am

Juggs, come to Northern Alberta and I'll show you a town full of kids who's only dream is either to farm or drive a truck.

overshoot · Post by **overshoot** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:50 am

Guys,

I don't really know what to say! I think you all have good points. I know that for myself, and from what my family has always told me; to go out there and fill my brain, has been a priority. I guess everyone views school differently. I think that as we (society) become more advanced and more schooling is required for everything, why shouldn't "we" as pilots advance with it. Not to say specialized courses like Flight Safety and those established by the major airlines don't meet that requirement, I'm just saying that I think this should be a priority. Schooling builds so many important qualities I think everyone could use more of. The best part is that the qualities that don't come from school, follow in the field. It's a win win situation.

Good luck in whatever you do and view as important. I'm sure with the right determination nothing will stop you.

Overshoot

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:22 pm

Doctors and Lawyers don't make a fortune because they're educated, if you think that, you've got problems.... They make that kind of coin because they're ORGANIZED and have created associations that limit the number of applicants, number of members and lobby the gov't to not allow anyone to do self diagnosis(and bill medicare) and/or fight for themselves or others in courts...

So CYYZ, since you're in favor of an pilot organization that restricts the number of pilots (great idea by the way), on what basis are you going to do the restricting?

Most professions require a high level of education that is very difficult to obtain. Getting into Med School or Law School is very tough, very few get in.

So how do you propose to restrict the number of pilots? Since you seem to think university degrees have no value, what do you plan on using? High school grades?

Also, how are you going to restrict the number of pilots and survive and counter-moves by industry lobby groups like ATAC who represent flying schools and owners who feed off cheap pilot labor?

Shady McSly · Post by **Shady McSly** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:24 pm

"Good luck in whatever you do and view as important. I'm sure with the right determination nothing will stop you.

Overshoot"

-Thanks Dr. Phil

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:06 am

Kelowna Pilot wrote: So CYYZ, since you're in favor of an pilot organization that restricts the number of pilots (great idea by the way), on what basis are you going to do the restricting?

Most professions require a high level of education that is very difficult to obtain. Getting into Med School or Law School is very tough, very few get in.

So how do you propose to restrict the number of pilots? Since you seem to think university degrees have no value, what do you plan on using? High school grades?

TC regulates the industry, they should be allowed to set a limit on how many tickets are written. Do 1 or 2 days a year where people can sit the exams and have 100 or XX number of people pass and get their CPL, and the same with the ATPLs, just a smaller number...

unrealistic and not possible because the pilot unions aren't lobbying the feds for such changes so it doesn't matter, but it's always nice to dream....

can have a profession and not be all about the money...eg. my doctor for example Take my doctor for example -"I enjoy helping people, I didn't get into the medical profession for the money."

ROFL, is he in the office everyday(7 days a week) 9-5?? is he in his 70's and is he still working....

Lucky for him he can bill ohip or whatever you have in your province, i wonder if he'd let in every patient into his care if he was in the states and they weren't insured....

or like Bono, yeah, the true artist who performs for the "love of performing" and loves those 3rd worlders so so much that he'll tell other countries to give aid to them, while he tax cheats every pennyhe can and avoiding paying those Precious taxes he wants nations to contribute....

Don't get me wrong I'm sure we have several dillusional lawyers, doctors, nhlers, nbaers, and what have you's out there who think they are doing it for the "love of the game."

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:21 pm

TC regulates the industry, they should be allowed to set a limit on how many tickets are written. Do 1 or 2 days a year where people can sit the exams and have 100 or XX number of people pass and get their CPL, and the same with the ATPLs, just a smaller number...

unrealistic and not possible because the pilot unions aren't lobbying the feds for such changes so it doesn't matter, but it's always nice to dream....

So on what criterion does TC use to determine who can and who cannot sit the exam?