Legality of Training Bonds?

[yak driver]

I am pretty sure if you check with the labour relations board (I did 8 years ago) there is no legal requirement to pay a "bond".

If out of the goodness of your heart, you feel that the company derserves $4700 for you leaving after 8 months, give it to them. Please do just check with the labour relations board yourself to see what the answer is.

[rsandor]

I really think we should know WHY sterry is leaving the company before we lambast him for trying to default on the bond.

No.

No? Are you being sarcastic (remember to use [/sarcasm] tags) or just retarded? Why he's leaving is totally relevant to whether or not he should be obligated to repay the training bond. We aren't talking about a bank loan here.

[gr8gazu]

If a bond is agreed on and signed prior to commencement of employment and offers both parties a meathod of escape (ie: no indebted servitude) then they are completely enforcable. It is a valid legal document.

The questions should be: "Is the company willing to take the legal action to make good on collecting?" "Are you willing to take legal action to avoid paying the bond?"

Please have an a lawyer review any employment document and remember, bonds are negotiable up front, not after you have left.

[Donald]

If a pilot decides to leave a company before the bond has been completed, but does pay out the full amount remaining, are they still considered "honourable"?

Or are they considered a dink for wasting company training time?

[xsbank]

Guys who have received 'better' offers in my company have either paid off the bond or worked it off contracting or part time. If your new employer hears that you broke your word and reneged on your agreement, do you think he will even hire you? If he does, will he trust you when its time to upgrade? This is a very small community and I, for one, would not want every potential employer to know that my word was worthless.

Imagine yourself trying to explain to the hiring board at Air Canada why you stiffed this company. When they read your resume, they will want to know why you left and there's a high probability they will call the operator.

Whether or not the bond is enforceable is immaterial.

[Donald]

Guys who have received 'better' offers in my company have either paid off the bond or worked it off contracting or part time.

And would you consider those guys to be good guys or dinks?

Just curious as I have heard some differring viewpoints on this...

[xsbank]

No, there are no hard feelings - the deal was kept and proper notice was given.

There is no money changing hands unless the employee wishes to leave early, otherwise you have your second anniversary and you are the only one to notice. Most stay longer; two guys I know did leave - one paid his off and is still contracting, a couple of years later, the other is still paying his off.

[cyyz]

no legality..

drop the job, get laid off at the new place and start flipping burgers...

good luck...

[asdfasd]

You can offer them a repayment schedule. X$ a month for X# of years. You don’t have to pay a lump sum. Legal and you kept your word.

[ei ei owe]

If you're ready to spend two years on the ramp at a company that requires a bond and wanna get out of it when you've started flying you're either a loser or a retard.

If you're willing to spend two years on the ramp, work for a company that doesn't bond pilots because management knows they'll stick around (until they've put in a fair amount of time) by treating them right.

[bcflyer]

Anyone else notice that the person that started this thread hasn't posted anything since???

[V1]

he/she probably figured out there rights, and left the rest to us!

[V1]

Are companies allowed to take your last cheque and use it against what's left in the bond? I only have a month left in a 2 year bond.

[freedomflyer01]

Consider this approach if you're trying to get out of a bond. First of all, is the company claiming training expenses for training you as part of their accounting procedures to offset income and hence reduce their taxes owed to Revenue Canada? If they are claiming expenses and then getting re-imbursed, they are breaking the laws of Revenue Canada as this type of "double dipping" is quite illegal. So find out what their accounting practices are and refuse to pay a penny of the bond until you have a Chartered Accountant's statement as to how they do this expense claiming with Revenue Canada. Second thing to consider is, is the company violating any practices of OSH (Occupational Health and Safety) rules as this can make for a dangerous work environment and no bond is legal if it entails risking life or limb. Things to consider on this one are a really close analyses of the AFM and things not being done exactly as written as there are companies out there who deviate from AFM's such as not doing run-ups or complete checklist items. Also are there things within the company which are questionable such as dangerous SOP's/practices which may make for occupational health and safety issues. Nobody should have to work for a firm which isn't striving for 100% safety.

[V1]

They are offering me a 'educational' tax reciept if pay them back for the remainder.. this probably means that they are writting it off ? This actually came up with another HR/lawyer person, and she was wondering if i can write off my whole bond as a educational write off.. Does anyone know about this?

They have taken my last pay cheque which includes vacation, and a large sum of money of expenses i incurred for the company (and a coworkers hotel room) on my personal credit card. I have HRDC on it.
There are no Safety concerns, they are a good company, i just wasn't in a position to stay for the last month.

[cubonfloats]

no legality..

drop the job, get laid off at the new place and start flipping burgers...

good luck...

+1

think of a bond like this: a little shade of job security its not entirely handing your nads to the company..

you can also look at it like this: are you willing to pay 4700 to get a job that jump starts your career while the industry is doing well. could this push you ahead in the industry? hey maybe its worth it. chances are you spent 35-85,000 dollars on your training...whats an extra 5?

[reach]

Hey boys!

I have a little info regarding the legality of the whole bond issue. Currently there are a dozen or more Canadians that were working for a foreign carrier that left for various reasons who are being sued. Many have raised the question with their attorneys regarding this issue. The basic answer from 5 different lawyers who specialize in this field have stated that the bonds stand up in court and can't be used as a way out. These guys have been advised that the court system in Canada will uphold the judgments and that the "Training Bond", "Training Agreement", "Conditions of Hire" or whatever other name you want to give it are valid. So, if the courts are willing to honour judgements from a foreign court regarding this issue, I'm quite sure that the provincial court system will uphold any contract signed in Canada.

I obviously do not know the exact "terms and conditions" of your contract, but I can assume that it said " x amount for training costs on X type etc..." I do know that they cannot garnish any wages owed to you if you followed the provinces labour codes for resignation etc... They must pay you all salaries, holiday days, O/T etc... regardless of the bond. That is a whole other thing that they must pursue in the Provincial Court system. You may have a case against them if they did not follow labour code acts when you resigned and you should go the local labour office to confirm this. As for the tax question, you can write it off as Professional Development expense for your trade. I work over seas and have read many sections of our Tax Laws to research bennefits and have come across this.

Regardless of why you left, you might want to get an accurate opinion from a professional instead of a bunch of wanna be lawyers like us. The outstanding amount could become considerably higher if they go after court costs and all that stuff.

Good luck.

[Mad Flying Ace]

Why not tell Jazz your committed until the expiration of the bond. We had a couple of guys leave to go to AC and Jazz - when they initially got called, they turned them down replying they were not available until whatever month - Both Jazz and AC said fine - no problem, when your ready give us a call - they both are now flying at AC and Jazz.

Even the "bigger" airlines respect the idea of a bond and understand - from my experience.

regards,

Mad Flying Ace

[Phileas Fogg]

If a pilot decides to leave a company before the bond has been completed, but does pay out the full amount remaining, are they still considered "honourable"?

Or are they considered a dink for wasting company training time?

I just left a company and it cost me $6000 to do it. Its shitty paying all that money for a PPC on a piece of shit airplane but I dont think I'm a 'dink' for doing it....I've been wrong before though.

[bravowhiskey]

is it wrong to leave a company if you signed a bond worked your butt off for 6 months, broke the regs to help the company and worked for very shitty wages in a remote area. Then the company lays off on one of their bigger airplanes and one of the pilots gets bumped (less senior then me) to my aircraft type and gets a rotation schedule (2 on 2 off) paid accomodations and $10,000 more per year?

[BibleMonkey]

I am about to leave a job where I signed a training bond. I did not think it was a big deal at the time because I had planned on staying with the company for the 2 years they required. I am 8 months into the job and they may want to recoup 50% of the training costs (50%= $4700). I was not required to pay the cost upfront.

I have often heard that these bonds are not legal. Does anyone know if there any truth to this?

Thanks

No idea.

I'm only reading this thread because there was a smudge on my spectacles:
I thought the thread title was
"Legality of Training Blonds?"

Needless to say, I am fairly disappointed in you for typing with such small, misleading letters.....

[sarg]

I just left a company and it cost me $6000 to do it. Its shitty paying all that money for a PPC on a piece of shit airplane but I dont think I'm a 'dink' for doing it....I've been wrong before though.

Did you think that when you signed the bond and took the training or just when you moved on to something else (presumably bigger)?

[xsbank]

If you sign a bond, honour it. That's not really that hard to comprehend, is it? Leave early, for any reason except those below, pay up.

Your word and reputation in this industry is VERY VALUABLE.

That is so easy to understand, I can explain it in about 2 dozen simple words (OK, comprehend might stress out some of you).

If you are being screwed and you are not getting what you negotiated, either sue them or get the labour board involved, whatever that means to you. Sue them for wrongful dissmissal or something. If you just walk away and ignore the contract, you are tossing all your rights and there is a virtual certainty that you will be sued. Ever look at the structure of your company and wonder why they retain their own lawyers or their firm is registered at a lawyer's office? The company pays the lawyer whether they sue you or not, so what do you think they will do?

You DID negotiate, right? You discussed the working conditions and you have them in writing, right? 'Promises' and time lines and all the things they assured you, they're in writing, right? You really weren't so thick that you just signed on the dotted line and ASSUMED that they would be good to you?

Legal schmegal. Just honour your word.

[Doc]

"You have them in writing, right?" ROTFLMFAO!!!! In YOUR dreams! These guys just close their eyes and....SIGN!!

Great way to cut an interview short...."Can I have that in writing?"

They're only just SLIGHTLY more intelligent than the ones who take cheque books to the interviews.

But, bottom line is, as xsbank says....if you signed it, honour it. Now, that wasn't so hard, was it?

[KAG]

I have a friend who had to pay the remainder of a bond when he left his previous employeer. A good company with a good reputation. He had good cause to, as they didn't live up to their end. Long story they went to court, he did have to pay, but not half what company X wanted.

Moral of the story - changes are your going to have to pay (some) if they do infact take you to court.

Easy solution for the new generation: live up to your word, and don't sign bonds.