A serious discussion about marijuana.

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As an employed pilot have you ever smoked Marijuana during your time-off?

Yes
78
29%
No, indifferent.
75
27%
Strictly opposed
120
44%
 
Total votes: 273

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marktheone
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Post by marktheone »

Cat Driver wrote:First off I voted yes to the question.
No Kidding! I would not have guessed that. I am kind of against dope just for the simple fact that it is demotivating. It leads to carpentry of cat scratchers and other useless construction projects.

Mark
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Post by Cat Driver »

Hey Mark I bet I've done more dumb things in my life than you have...

...if for no other reason than I've had more years to be dumb. :mrgreen:
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Post by captain 999 »

In my opinion people can do what they want with their lives. Smoke drugs, drink excessively, ruin your life, ruin your health, ruin your career, it's all your choice.

BUT, when your job (being a pilot) gives you the responsibility of ensuring the safety of others, you should be focused and sober. If you want to be a hippie who smokes-up or an alcoholic, go do something that is conductive to those activities, i.e. become an artist (if you're really into drugs) or a philosopher.

I strongly believe that there should be mandatory drug testing in Canada, to weed out the losers. I would not want my life in the hands of someone who was out partying until 3 a.m. the night before a flight.

:shock:
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Post by sissyphus »

I think there is a difference between someone who smokes and an alcoholic. There are people who smoke on the weekend, in my mind the same as a bottle of wine on sunday dinner, who aren't abusing it. Should there be devastating consequenses for this guy? If you want to smoke a joint, why should you have to devote your life to it and become a philosopher? Why can't you be a pilot during the week and a human being on the weekend? By this token, you should have to grow a mustache and sport the raybans as soon as you get your ticket. To ensure behavior becoming of a "Pilot".
I think the process to weed out the losers, is the dumbest f$%ing thing I've ever heard. The process to become a professional pilot is hard enough to do it alone. If you can do it, you belong there. Everyone pays the same price.
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Post by rsandor »

I know a couple of pilots who smoked weed & drank on their time off, who were safer and more meticulous pilots than a lot of completely clean & sober pilots that I know.

You simply cannot say that everyone who smokes weed is a loser stoner who won't amount to anything. It's a sweeping generalisation, and stereotyping is the sign of a weak mind.

That said, I don't smoke anything; I can't stand the smell!
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Post by shimmydampner »

I hope everyone who voted "no, strictly opposed" doesn't touch alcohol. Just because that is legal doesn't mean that it's not a far more damaging drug, anyone who has been drunk and stoned knows that. Not too many pot smokers jump in their cars and drive 150kph into someone else. Not too many pot smokers are waking up in the morning next to an ugly ditch pig wondering what time the clinic opens. Not too many pot smokers are starting brawls, getting their stomachs pumped, beating their wives, etc. etc. etc. If you are opposed to pot, yet drink booze, you are a hypocrite.

Everything in moderation.
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Post by dji »

shimmydampner, that last post+ your sig makes me smile
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Post by RatherBeFlying »

So if you get randomised and test positive, tell them you were at a party where a bunch must have been smoking something else besides cigars and ciggies, but you were too drunk to notice.
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Post by Louis »

Here's a link to an article I believe should be of interest:

http://www.jlaroche.com/cqfa/280-BUM/Ca ... Pilots.pdf
Cannabis And Pilots

Jean LaRoche
Air Canada Pilot
Professor, Chicoutimi College

Many line pilots, training personnel, and aviation medical examiners worry nowadays about an increase of cannabis consumption by pilots. This is often described as a trivialization of the use of cannabis. Current disinformation seems to imply that younger pilots, early in their careers, are less conscious of the administrative and legal consequences of the use of marijuana, but the problem is not limited to young pilots. The discussion that follows is derived from the content of the Aeromedical Human Factors Course at the CQFA1 and constitutes a factual review of the consequences linked to consumption of cannabis by Canadian pilots in general.

To enjoy the privileges of their Canadian Aviation Document (Recreation, Private, or Commercial License), pilots must comply with Transport Canada requirements regarding intoxicating substances such as alcohol, medications, and other legal drugs. Pilots are also required to comply with Transport Canada requirements for illegal drugs as defined by federal legislation.

Intoxicated pilots are treated differently depending on whether they are prosecuted under the Canadian Air Regulation (CAR) or under Article 253 of the Canadian Criminal Code. The CAR applies to any circumstance in which cannabis was found in the pilot’s blood at the time the test was performed, whether the pilot was operating an aircraft or not or whether he or she was considered impaired or not. Under the Criminal Code, the pilot must be proven impaired at the time he or she was operating the aircraft or had custody of the aircraft.

Cannabis affects the brain’s neurotransmitters and impairs psychomotor skills and short-term memory (Baselt, 2001; Leirer, Yesavage, & Morrow, 1991). As a direct consequence of growing political and media awareness, budgets for research on cannabis, which were almost nonexistent in the past, are being increased, thus allowing scientists to study the potential beneficial effects of its active components for some illnesses as well as any long-term toxic effects.

It has been well demonstrated that today’s cannabis is several times more powerful than previous generations of plants. It has also been shown that it plays a key role in the emergence of serious mental conditions, such as schizophrenia, paranoia, hallucinatory psychosis, and mania, that may have otherwise remained latent in an individual (Bersani, Orlandi, Kotzalidis & Pancheri, 2002; Hambrecht, & Hafner, 2000). The associated abnormal behavior is incompatible with flying and can result in the suspension of a pilot’s Medical Validation Certificate (MVC) for an indefinite duration.

Structured air carriers require drug screening when hiring new pilots. Some pilots, who count on hiring being a foreseeable event, use cannabis but cease a few months before recruitment, then resume consumption once hired. Pilots should know that drug screening is also performed following serious aviation incidents, either by the carrier, the civil authority, or sometimes by the military in certain countries. Obviously, it is impossible to predict when or in which country an incident will occur, for example, a runway excursion, flat tire, or an inadvertent incursion on an active IFR runway.

The most frequent excuse invoked by pilots at fault is that they are the victims of secondary cannabis smoke from a few days preceding the screening. However, the screening tests are calibrated to eliminate levels attributable to secondary smoke exposure (false positive). When a screening test is positive, the candidate is considered to be a user, and the chain of administrative consequences begins immediately.

In Canada, a pilot testing positive for cannabis will lose his MVC with an automatic and immediate removal from flying duties. The length of the MVC suspension period depends on the active participation by the pilot in an approved rehabilitation program and on his close surveillance by a recognized multidisciplinary team. This type of program must be approved by Transport Canada and is presently in use within major unionized air carriers only. Experience shows that after 3 months of treatment a pilot can be reinstated to flying duties approximately 8 out of 10 times but will remain on probation for a minimum period of 2 years.

The onus to prove rehabilitation is always on the pilot at the outcome of the therapy. Proving a successful rehabilitation to Transport Canada is a delicate process even when the pilot is treated by a competent team. He or she must be supported by fellow pilots specially trained in pilot assistance and by a group disability plan that provides compensatory income to allow the pilot to dedicate full time and energy to achieve the goal. Conversely, a pilot left to himself will see his suspension period automatically set by Transport Canada at 2 years. Without organized support and flight pay, proving his rehabilitation is extremely difficult. The suspension often extends beyond the initial 2 years and sometimes will end the pilot’s career.

When detected following an aviation incident, the presence of cannabis in the pilot’s body will void the pilot’s professional liability insurance, whether the intoxicating substance contributed to the incident or not. This consequence rapidly becomes a nightmare for the pilot’s family as well as the individual in the event a civil law suits for damages is pressed. In this case, the pilot not only can lose income but also savings and personal assets.

1 CQFA stands for Centre québécois de formation aéronautique, the 35-year-old aviation faculty of the Chicoutimi College, located in the Saguenay region of Quebec.

Baselt RC. (2001). Drug effects on psychomotor performance. Biomedical Publications, Foster City, CA; pp 403-415.
Bersani G, Orlandi V., Kotzalidis GD., Pancheri P. (2002). Cannabis and schizophrenia : impact on onset, course, psychopathology and outcomes. Eur Arch Psychiatry Clin Neurosci. Apr; 252(2):86-92
Hambrecht M., Hafner H. (2000). Cannabis, vulnerability, and the onset of schizophrenia : an epidemiological perspective. Department of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, University of Cologne, Germany. Aust N Z J Psychiatry. Jun; 34(3):468-75
Leirer VO, Yesavage JA, Morrow DG. (1991). Marijuana carry-over effects on aircraft pilot performance. Aviat Space Environ Med. 62(3):221-7.
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'effin hippie
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Post by 'effin hippie »

My username not withstanding.....

Suppose, just for a second, that pot got decriminalized, or legalized (these being a little different). Then what?

I guess TC would have to do a study and make a rule. Simple: find out how long after ingestion measurable effects on performance remain.
Now, maybe, just maybe, the effects are SO long lasting as to have measurable effects within the 30 day or whatever period the stuff is detectable, then I guess TC bans dope for all pilots forever with sound medical reason.
I think it much more likely, all you other experts aside, that after 48 - 72 hours no measurable effect on performance remains. Then the rule is: No ingestion within the limit, basically on the honour system, just like booze.

My point is this. I'm not really seeing any solid medical evidence here against occasional, responsible marijuana use; the arguments against it are basically moral and as such are underpinned by it being illegal. If our society as a whole decides to relax about pot, and formalizes that decision in Parliament, then the question here about what a good pilot is to do becomes simple medical question of how long does it take for the effects to wear off.
(And yes, excessive use has serious permanent side-effects. But again, abuse of any drug on that scale, be it booze or aspirin, will render you unfit to operate anything bigger than a zipper.)

ef

ps. Anyone know what the rules are in Holland?
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Post by Mr. North »

Well it was nice to read all this dialog. While I agree with the general sentiment voiced by 'effin Hippie among others, I must say Louis' post is the official deterrent. I'm sure it's enlightened a few minds.
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Post by Cat Driver »

ps. Anyone know what the rules are in Holland?

They do random drug testing at Amsterdam departures on pilots.

You would not want to know what they do if you are a pilot on his way to the gate to fly a trip.

Suffice to say your employer would be right pissed off.

. E.
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Post by Hedley »

after 48 - 72 hours no measurable effect on performance remains
You're kidding yourself. It's a lot longer than that.

I don't do any recreational pharmeceuticals. I don't even smoke cigarettes, or drink alcohol, because all of the above either make you dumber (eg impair your reaction time, memory and reasoning) or age you prematurely.

If you want to be dumber and older than you otherwise would be, sure, fill your boots, pour those chemicals into you (shrug).
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Post by 2R »

After having the misfortune of having worked with "self medicators".
The mood swings were bad enough.The paranoia that they suffer means everyone around them suffers.
It gives you a really bad feeling in your gut when you have to fly an airplane that was maintained by someone who could not get a job in the trucking industry as they do drug testing for insurance purposes.It does not inspire confidence in a machine at all when the DOM has a pipe in his office and was blowing dope with the apprentices.Partying all night instead of working on the airplane.I left that company after the owner refused to remedy the situation.
I laugh at the fucking idiots who think" they can handle it"go to any downtown in any major city those girls on the street corners are not selling themselves for coffee or cigarettes but most are on drugs and most started out on drugs they thought they could handle.

If someone engages in an illegal activity in their own time ,why would you trust them with an airplane and peoples lives.If you smoke illegal drugs you lack the good moral charecter to fly people. You desrve to lose your licence.
You want to smoke up open a coffee shop on Texada or Tofino.Get out of aviation freak :rolleyes:

The sooner we get drug testing in Canada for everyone involved in aviation the safer the travelling public will be.A good place to start would be if you touch an airplane 'Piss in the cup and a hair sample please thank you,very nice'
:smt040
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Post by Hedley »

Legal is interesting, but from a practical standpoint, what do you think about a pilot who smokes a cigarette then tries to fly a night circling approach to minimums out in the middle of nowhere?

Transport may be happy with him impairing his night vision right before he tries to fly the night circling approach, but are you?

Last I heard, Air Canada wasn't even allowed to fly a night circling approach.
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Post by 2R »

If you are circling at night it means that you have the runway in sight .If you lose sight of the runway you should be following the missed approach procedures.You do not need great night vision to see a well lit runway enviornment.

Circling at night is safe in most 703 types of operations if the crew is willing to go missed if the runway is lost.My personel preference is the long final at night as things happen around black hole airports and the last thing you want to have to do is partial panel at night close to the ground.

However if you are flying by starlight once you turn on the runway lights you will lose a lot of your night vision.And if you have a co-joe who turns on all the lights to read the check list say goodbye to night vision as well.
Before 9-11 we used to practice landing by starlight and no lights on the airplane.But after a local policeman emptied his gun at one of the airplanes thinking he had caught a bad guy.We stopped that practice.
He fired off two clips of 9mm and missed every shot.His boss sent him for more shooting practice.
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Post by mellow_pilot »

What about the fact that it's illegal? I'm not trying to be an asshole here, but think about it for a second. Regardless of the effects of alcohol, (which we all know are probably worse than canibis) alcohol is legal, pot is illegal. You can argue whether that should be. I know I'm on the legalize/tax side of the argument. It's obvious to me that it should be treated the same as booze and smokes, but for now it is illegal. Same as overloading your plane, same as not maintaining your engine, same as drinking and then flying without the appropriate recovery time. So why is it ok to pick and choose which laws you're going to respect?

The law is wrong? Ok, fight it. Get it changed. I have no issue with that, in fact I'd probably cheer for you, little underdog. But don't sit here and say that it's ok to break the law just cause you don't agree with it! Slippery slope people. It's this attitude that allows for the violation of regulations which gets people killed. I'm not saying that smoking up on the weekend is going to endanger your passengers, but the attitude that you can choose to disregard the law because you know better is dangerous. That attitude permeates all facets of our lives. Just consider it.
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Post by 2R »

If you "know" something then there is no probability in it .It is what it is .To accept a probability as a fact shows flawed reasoning .
I could probably get you to perform debasing acts on a goat using such flawed logic :wink: :wink: :butthead:

Oh wait a minute but it was only a seconds worth of thinking ,not bad try giving it a full minute next time.

The guys who beat their wifes think the law is wrong too .Do we change that law because some find it disgreeable to their lifestyle ????
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the deadly booner
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Re: A serious discussion about marijuana.

Post by the deadly booner »

Mr. North wrote: That's fine, but it has always left me wondering... just how many working pilots enjoy Mary Jane during their downtime?
i can vouch for every pilot who has ever worked in kenora, ontario, that not a single one has enjoyed Mary Jane in their down time. and that goes double for when they were working.
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Post by flyinphil »

Curiously missing from the conversation is the OTC medications many take for Cold/Flu/Allergy relief.

I would take a pilot who is a "day old" smoker over those with an alcohol or OTC drug induced hangover any day.
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Post by Hedley »

alcohol or OTC drug induced hangover
both are illegal. See CAR 602.03:
602.03 No person shall act as a crew member of an aircraft

(b) while under the influence of alcohol; or

(c) while using any drug that impairs the person's faculties to the extent that the safety of the aircraft or of persons on board the aircraft is endangered in any way.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#602_03

The CARs are very clear that flying with an alcohol hangover is a contravention of 602.03(b), and use of over-the-counter medicines are clearly a violation of 602.03(c).
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Post by mellow_pilot »

2R wrote:If you "know" something then there is no probability in it .It is what it is .To accept a probability as a fact shows flawed reasoning .
I could probably get you to perform debasing acts on a goat using such flawed logic :wink: :wink: :butthead:

Oh wait a minute but it was only a seconds worth of thinking ,not bad try giving it a full minute next time.

The guys who beat their wifes think the law is wrong too .Do we change that law because some find it disgreeable to their lifestyle ????
The guy who beats his wife probably realises on some level that it's a bad thing, and I have never met anyone who has petitioned the government to make wife-beating legal.

Beating your wife and driving drunk has a negative impact on society as a whole. As such, there are laws against it. I believe the impact on society would be lessened were pot to be legalized.

Point is, we're not arguing about the social implications of alcohol abuse. The law right now states that the use of marijuana is prohobited. If you chose to smoke up, you have knowingly ignored the law. Regardless of whether you believe the law to be just and correct, it is the law. It must be obeyed, if it is not, there are legal consequences (though in our country that's debateable). It's a rule, some people seem to think that they can pick and choose the rules they're going to follow. It's an attitude that can be found all over society. I see no difference between taking off one pound over max gross and smoking pot. Either way you broke the law. Does it really matter how small the offence is?
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Post by xsbank »

Louis' posting dramatically lays it on the line, what I tried to say earlier in my clumsy way - if any of you pilots think, after having read that posting, that its all right to toke up while you hold a professional pilot designation, no matter how you justify it, all I can say is it is aviation Darwinism at work; it shows such a profound lack of professional judgement that you deserve to make room for the guys below you.

There is always a percentage of the population that is addicted to something: drugs, sex, alcohol; maybe aviation. If you are a member of that group and you are not receiving help you are a hazard to everyone you come in contact with. You will be the unreliable crew member, the one who always lets the rest down, the one who always disappoints. I have known alcoholic pilots who avoided hitting the ground, but pissed off and annoyed everyone they worked with.

Arguing about whether its alright to smoke on your days off are moot - you will lose, eventually; great to go home and tell your family you can't work anymore because of that party you went to on your holidays.
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Post by Cat Driver »

The effects of regular use of marijuana are sometimes quite dramatic.

When I was flying water bombers some moons ago I had a FO who smoked regularly with the Bird Dog Officer and they ocassionally did Coke as well.

One day on a small fire near Marathon we had done a drop and I had high power transmission lines to climb over ahead of us.

I asked for climb power and the FO got all mixed up and pulled both throttles back to idle.....I took the levers from him and added the needed power and looked at him and was stunned to see he had a blank look on his face and did not even know where he was.

I left the fire and went back to base and he admitted to me having done a bit to much drugs the night before and had not gotten any sleep.

Anyhow I called the company and asked for his removal on medical grounds and then the real problems started.

I won't go into the whole story except to say I did not get a replacement for political reasons.

But I can testify that abuse of drugs and flying can be deadly and there must be zero tolerance for using them by pilots.
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Post by Hedley »

CRASH PILOT "IMPAIRED" BY MARIJUANA

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/a ... tml#194435

The pilot of a Cessna 182 that crashed near Delta, Colo., a year ago
had smoked pot within three hours of the crash and "was impaired by
its effects at the time of the accident," according to an NTSB report

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_i ... 0238&key=1

that was released in October and reported last week in Glenwood Springs
Post Independent

http://www.postindependent.com/article/ ... E/70208006

Pilot Glen Harcourt and passengers Tim Hackett and Bolling Barton
Willse died when the plane hit a power line before crashing in a
field. Witnesses said they saw the airplane "buzz the ranch" that was
its intended destination before clipping the line. Autopsies on the
passengers showed neither had any drugs or alcohol in their systems,
according to the newspaper.

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/a ... tml#194435
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