getting out of bonds

[wallypilot]

Pay it...especially if it's a good company that has treated you decently.

There are other forms of bonds in other industries as well, but they tend to work differently. Look at Chartered Accountants. They have to commit over 3 years to a certain employer who then pays for their courses to reach their certification. This is after having paid their own way through (usually) a bachelor's degree of some sort. And this is institutionalised by the Association of Chartered accountants. Every CA has to put in over 3 years of "indentured service" in order to attain their quals.

This is not to say I support the reduction of mobility in our industry, and I definitely don't support bonds, but they do exist in different forms outside aviation. If all those bad companies shaped up and treated people well, and all those a$$holes that quit 8 months after getting a pricey type rating would shape up and honour their commitments, then bonds probably wouldn't exist.

Good post pika.

-wp

[Doc]

While I'm no fan of training bonds, you signed it. So, look at it as a cost of doing business. Pay it off. Don't have 6K? Take out a loan. Or, maybe, if you show good faith, the company will let you pay it back in monthly payments. Give them post dated cheques as you walk out the door. But, do pay it back. If I were to hire you, and, find out at a later date, that you stiffed your company for 6K, I'd find a way to send your sorry ass down the road.....and the word would get out...follow my drift?

[LostinRotation]

Well what if you signed a bond and the company's work ethics continued to deteriorate over a period of time? What do you do then if one is questioning his/her safety within the company?

Look, no one shouldn't be signing any training bond nor pay for any training!

First off, if your worried about your safety either

a) you didn't do enough research on the company before you applied
b) your a whore that didn't care about safety until your logbook looked good
c) call transport's whistle blower line

Secondly

A training bond is just that....a bond. No payments are made up front. If you leave a company is just trying to recover costs from an investment that didn't work out. If you don't like training bonds then you should complain to all those who had an employer spend thousands on them only to leave 4 months later after saying " No I'll be more than happy to work here for atleast two years "

Training somone on an excel or a dash-8 costs alot to a company....it's not like two weeks training at Taco Bell for $8/hr. I signed a bond when I got hired with my current employer...did I like the fact I had to sign a bond......NO...but I understand why they asked for one....and I understand I have to pay it if I leave before the term is up. I hate people that try to "wiggle" out of deals/contracts. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR DESCISIONS. No one put a gun to your head to sign.

The company I'm with now spent far more on my training than what they asked for in a bond. I did my research...I liked the company...I liked the people (an interview goes both ways)...I liked the equipment.....I like the maintenance.....I have no problem staying there for the period of time they asked for.......if I didn't I WOULDN'T HAVE SIGNED A BOND.


-=0=LiR=0=-

[V2]

again as I mentioned, if a company was good, paid descent and treated their employees well, there would be no need for a bond, I'd draw ya'll a picture... but I don't know how

[Crazymax]

Reciprocally, if all pilots were not hopping from a job to an other, there would be no bonds...

Max

[Dust Devil]

again as I mentioned, if a company was good, paid descent and treated their employees well, there would be no need for a bond, I'd draw ya'll a picture... but I don't know how

What about the scum that ditches the employer because they don't have the plane they want to fly. Is an operator a shitty company because they don't run King Airs or Lear Jets.

If you make a commitment stick to it. I don't ask for bonds but this thread makes me think I should reconsider

[Golden Flyer]

Reciprocally, if all pilots were not hopping from a job to an other, there would be no bonds...

Max

It's the only way pilots can make a living. If Jazz is paying a dude with four kids under $30 000/yr and he needs to build hours on move on, let him! How the hell is a professional person getting payed under $30 000/yr to fly a jet. Horrible! That is just disgusting. If a company can cheat you like such a whore, do the same thing. I don't have any respect for these fools! Pilots who seek to fly at airlines are seeking to do such as a career, not another job on the side. You should benefit from your career.

When 748 ho makes a post on this forum he is often ridiculed for the information that he brings forth. But seriously, would an idiot seek to move on to greener pastures that will actually suit him? Pilots shouldn't have to be jumping from airline to airline. They've noticed that you guys will continue to search for employers so the create a bond to tie you down? You'll think that people would run, but how can you? Pilots with low time are desperate, can't support themselves and will do anything to move up on the ladder.

[Crazymax]

I think the problem comes from both parties. Not only employers... Yes, the salary isn't the greatest. Yes, you might have opportunities somewhere else. However, it's not buy jumping to companies every 6 months that the industry will fix itself. The employer will have to requalify someone for the job you were qualified on (and it's not cheap...) That's a vicious circle....

Max

[Golden Flyer]

It is a vicous cicle, but Max, who do you think it should start with? Change should start with the employers. Pilots are the ones that are really hit with the bad hand. Think employees then corporations. They could give a shit less about you. That is why companies outsource, they're always seeking the cheapest labour. In the aviation industry, it's not hard to find... pilots are generally cheap labourers. In China, workers fight against things like this, but the government continues to keep them down. In a free, democratic society like Canada, pilots are faced with the same hardship... they sit and discuss it amongst themselves and on message boards.

[Be20Captain]

Bonds are here to stay and I think that many agree with me, or can atleast understand where they come from. By no means do I intend to offend the majority here, but in all really if you were to spend a day in management you might understand some of the realities of business.

By no means should bonds be overly high, but they should cover the training costs and replacement costs of a pilot. Pilots will always think of themselves and not the bigger picture. The all to common line is "the airline can't function without me, the pilot" - but in all reality it is a team.

Most importantly, don't think that you're just inconveniencing the company, but you are also hurting your coworkers who have to cover for your absence.

[pika]

By no means should bonds be overly high, but they should cover the training costs and replacement costs of a pilot.

Cover training costs and that is all. One penny more is against the law.

[Dockjock]

6 grand? Pay it and move on with the lesson learned. Next time a) don't sign or b) don't quit before it expires.

Steps to accepting a job where a bond is required as a term of employment.
1. Don't quit previous job
2. Verbally accept new job pending review of terms
3. Recieve formal (written) offer of employment, again pending bond
4. Review terms of bond
5. Request groundschool/sim actual cost information, including training provider's contact info for verification
6. If training is in-house request details syllabus and cost breakdown
7. Determine that bond is covering only the cost of flight and ground training- not travel, not meals, not hotel, not other employee's salary, not your own salary while training etc. Verify bond is for initial training period only and expires prior to going back for recurrent training. Recurrent training is a cost of doing business and should be paid by the employer. Verify bond is pro-rated.
8. Accept terms and sign bond, or alter bond to acceptable terms and sign back your offer
9. Agree on final terms of bond (aka return of service agreement)
10. Accept written job offer
11. Quit old job, giving satisfactory notice.

[YVR Dude]

See, this poll should be rephrased: Should one be honest or not?

It shouldn't even be a question.

By signing, whatever the terms were, you agreed to them. Now, unless your employer didn't live up to the terms, why in the world wouldn't you live up to your end of the contract?

The only way I see I wouldn't pay is if I had to sign under duress. Now, I know this was discussed in another thread but did you have to sign that bond after you got hired or was it a condition of your initial employment? If you were forced to sign it AFTER you got hired, then that would constitute duress because you were forced to sign to keep your job. Otherwise, it's a condition of employment and you have 2 choices: say no and walk away (by all means!!!) or sign the paper. If you sign the paper, you are responsible for what you signed for. Period.

I just can't believe how sometimes people will do anything to avoid their responsibilities. By voting against paying, you people are just perpetuating the employer/employee relationship problems this industry has.

I absolutely totally agree with you, brakes!

Good post!!

[YVR Dude]

Isn't the bond pro-rated? If you owe 6 grand, then I think you are jumping ship right after you've got the rating? Did the rating open up a door for you to apply for this bigger jet job? Then maybe its worth it two fold! Experience as well as the rating....

pay it! you signed it!

[Odysseus]

If you signed it, pay it. Unless the company didn't keep their end of the bargain. You gave them your word and that should be worth more than 6 grand to you even if you don't have the money.
I signed a bond to get my first flying job, I didn't like it but it was either that or stay on the ramp, so I signed it. The bond was 7000 bucks pro-rated over two years (which is much more money than it cost to actualy complete my initial trainning) and I fully intended on staying with that company for the two years I signed for.
Three months after being hired, I was laid off along with a few other pilots in order to cut costs for the company during winter time, and re-hired shortly thereafter. I was laid off for three weeks because the boss expected a winter time lull in flying which didn't even happen. The company broke their end of the agreement and now if I choose to leave, I will not owe them a dime.
So this is the question I have for all the chief pilots and ops managers out there: Why is it that the company can break their end of the agreement and put you out of a job for almost no reason, and not have to shell out a dime, but if you choose to find work elsewhere you can be held accountable for thousands of dollars?

[Crazymax]

Because they pay for your training. You get a PPC out of it, for free, and no further obligation if they decide that they don't need you anymore....

Max

[Odysseus]

Because they pay for your training. You get a PPC out of it, for free, and no further obligation if they decide that they don't need you anymore....

Max

I guess you're right Max, but then why make me sign a bond in the first place? If they intend on laying people off before the bond expires why make us sign one at all? In this situation, the company is basically throwing away its pilots in the winter and then spending money to train new ones every spring, and they are now running out of captain material pretty fast.
The company is actually contributing to pilot mobility by trying to force bonds on us, since captains who have the hours to upgrade to other company planes prefer finding work elsewhere than sign a new bond.
And another question, do you think that 12 grand pro-rated over two years is fair for a King Air captain PPC?

[Crazymax]

Would it be Max Aviation by any chance

Max

[Odysseus]

Nope, next door neighbour actualy. But same situation I guess eh?

[pushyboss]

Whateve ever happened to "my word is my bond"? You gave your word when you signed the bond. Maybe it's too complicated for my old brain to comprehend. maybe I don't understand the aviation industry anymore.

I just thought when you give your word it meant something. I guess I won't be doing any business with pilots anymore because at least 30% of you think screwing your way out of an agreement is ok. Hey I've got an idea why not just walk away for your car payment? Those buggers at the bank have more than enough dough. They made you sign under duress didn't they? If you didn't sign they wouldn't give you the car. That's got to be against some law somewhere.

You guys depress me....

[Crazymax]

Nope, next door neighbour actualy. But same situation I guess eh?

They could be... A few years ago, FOs had to PAY 4200$ for a right seat PPC on the Navajo.....

Max

[.......]

well that was productive....looks like someone is bitter .....perhaps on the other side of the fence......i would be too.....Just looking for advice.....you prick!!!!!!

Well, you did mention you were looking for typical avcanada advice, no?

Anyway, I thought this thread was about golf!!!

[Odysseus]

They could be... A few years ago, FOs had to PAY 4200$ for a right seat PPC on the Navajo.....

Max

Yeah I know, I did my flight trainning at Cargair/Max and also worked the ramp there for a year.
Are they still asking that people pay the Navajo PPC up front or have things changed a bit?

[Crazymax]

I have no idea. My special one used to be a Flight instructor in Mascouche. She quit when she got that 1000 hrs... This company is full of "Crosseurs"....

Max

[xsbank]

You signed, you pay.

That's it.