RCMP

[LH]

happily_retired ---------(1)read me CAREFULLY again. I said that basic training was cut-dowm from 11 1/2 months to the time you have specified. That part is accurate and not "of questionable accuracy". I do not care how long they are in some form of training AFTER thay leave Depot/Basic, they DO NOT have the same "Basics" and haven't gone through the same "weeding-out" process that they did years ago after 46 weeks of training. They "hit the ground" with a lot more basic training back then then they do now. I've seen the production model under the new system and if anyone thinks that the product coming down the ramp and ready to meet the public after 24 weeks is the same as the one that came down that same ramp years before with 46 weeks of training, then they never experienced both. I wouldn't bother entering into a heated discussuion about such a thing. The list of still very valid items that were left off of the Training Syllabus to accomodate the new shortened version of RCMP Training is extremely long and I'm not including something like equitation training when I state that. I've had these discussions with those that trained in the latter years and there is no agreement on this subject at all........and I suspect there never will be. The conditions and regulations that I joined under would not be tolerated by the vast majority who joined years later. Ergo, as far as I'm concerned, that left the door open for more "chaff" to pass through................ and the number of internal Service Court Proceedings and Civilan Court hearings over the ensuing decades proves that. Again, I'm not "dumping" on ALL Members of today's RCMP, BUT I am "dumping" on the system that allowed more of the "chaff" to pass though and besmirch the reputations of the vast majority of good-serving members.

(2) I only mentioned the boots the RCMP wore as another indication that their background owes more to the military than any other police force anywhere. If you would care to debate that, then have at'er because if you've been in the RCMP then you know that full well from a course they teach/taught called "History of The Force". Then again, maybe they dropped that subject too long ago and in that case the evidence is at the Depot Museum for you to read and see. At any rate, it's not information from any "inner sanctum" and is easily researched and found out by John Q. Public. I DID NOT state nor infer that there was anything wrong with any of the above or that it somehow inhibited the Force in some way. I do know that standing for hours in them at a road-block at temps. of -35F on a Canadian prairie night wasn't any "gift" though.......grrrrrrrrrr.

Professor.......... Do you really believe that the RCMP would send only 32 Recruits to Training in Regina at any one time? Surely to God, you aren't that "dense" and I sure hope you don't think the RCMP were/are that "dense" either or you have a REALLY sullen view of the RCMP's intelligence. It varies, but when I was training there were approximately 700 in various levels if training. Do you really believe that you can have a 100% success rate with that number? Tad different than 32 isn't it? The cost then was estimated to be at about $30,000 per recruit per 11 1/2 months training. You graduated from training, were posted to wherever they ORDERED you to go. They asked you weeks before graduation where YOU WOULD LIKE to be posted, but that was only a formality and few got their wish. That was THEN.......it's more "accomodating" nowadays.

For some unknown reason people seem to think that police people come from some secular place or receive some kind of training that removes 100% of the "chaff" of society from their midst all the time. My wife and other policemens' wives would have had a very large laugh at that suggestion or thought. You can "screen" on entrance requirements for anything that you so wish to name and you will NEVER have a 100% success rate at that venture because life ain't like that and I suspect almost everyone knows that anyway. Fire Departments, the Priesthood, the Theological Colleges where Ministers train can state the same. Always was like that too folks, but just kept much better hidden than it is today.

Nark ------- I've been a policeman, a soldier /pilot in combat and a civilian pilot. I've also been accused of being drunk on duty in all three professions and having broke a myraid of laws in all three professions. One thing never changed though in all those years and professions..............when I was really needed and it was a matter of "life or death", then I was treated as though I walked on water. After all that was over, it was back to being "wall-paper" again until I was needed to "walk on water" once more.

[Driving Rain]

Ah the good old days when the Mounties were much better trained and just as good at screwing up as they are today.
For a good read pick up Ian Adams book Portrait of a Spy and Agent of Influence.
It takes us back to the good ol'days of 1973 when Adams broke this sad story. I guess all that extra training they had at cop school helps them older cops sleep at night.

Adams’ broke the story for the Globe and Mail, on Grey Cup weekend in November 1973, of the Chilean Cabinet of Salvador Allende seeking asylum from certain torture and death in the aftermath of the miltary coup by General Pinochet. One of the places they turned to was the Canadian Embassy. The Embassy forwarded the information on the names and whereabouts of the Allende cabinet (all, by the way, democratically elected politicians) to the RCMP, who turned it over to the CIA, who turned it over the General Pinochet, who rounded up the Cabinet members and ‘disappeared’ them.
So, not the first and undoubtably not the last time the RCMP will facilitate the torture and slaughter of innocents, because it has no idea what it is doing and never will by the sounds of it.

[the_professor]

Professor.......... Do you really believe that the RCMP would send only 32 Recruits to Training in Regina at any one time? Surely to God, you aren't that "dense" and I sure hope you don't think the RCMP were/are that "dense" either or you have a REALLY sullen view of the RCMP's intelligence. It varies, but when I was training there were approximately 700 in various levels if training. Do you really believe that you can have a 100% success rate with that number?

I understood his point was that are 32 candidates per troop or class. I was not under the impression that there were only 32 at the Depot at any one time.

As for having a 100% success rate, what do you mean by success? I would not expect all candidates to make it through the training, because you cannot determine ability by relying entirely on initial screening. That's why only 3 of the 16 people made it through my ATC class.

However, by the end of training you should be able to determine who may or may not shoot unarmed, non-threatening civilians, and nobody should get a gun and a badge if there is any risk of that behaviour.

You graduated from training, were posted to wherever they ORDERED you to go. They asked you weeks before graduation where YOU WOULD LIKE to be posted, but that was only a formality and few got their wish. That was THEN.......it's more "accomodating" nowadays.

What does a mandatory posting have to do with killing unarmed civilians? You don't see controllers running planes together because they're not happy with their mandatory postings. You must have meant something else.

[happily.retired]

LH - You must need to edit your initial post as it explicitly states that "the government reduced their basic training from 11 1/2 months down to 3 months" You later agree with me that "the basic training was cut down from 11 1/2 months to the time you have specified" which is 24 weeks or almost 6 months.

Additionally, I'm not claiming that one can learn as much in 24 weeks as in 46. (Despite the conclusions you've obviously reached about me, with incomplete information, I am not an idiot.) Nor that 24 weeks is even sufficient. I am simlpy defending the individuals who are doing the best they can within the only system available to them.

[LH]

Driving Rain ------I was long gone from the RCMP by your time mentioned. I should also advise that RCMP HQ on Alta Vista Dr. in Ottawa seldom if ever confers with Constables on Deteachment concerning matters which are none of their business. I therefore, together with many thousand other ex-Members like me, will not accept blame for something in which we had no part of or weren't asked our opinions on before or after the event. As in the milkitary or any large corporation, there were thousands of things that went on daily within the Force that I knew nothing about.....and wasn't consulted beforehand. Bags of them I didn't agree with the actions taken when I DID find out, but again, whether I agreed or not wasn't cared about. When you are in a police force or the military you are not part of a democracy and ranks above you don't need your vote, so they make decisions without your knowledge or consideration.

I also want more proof about such actions than one book author although the authore may well be correct. That's just me possibly, but I also understand that others don't need all that much proof to believe anything. I can only trust and hope that they also will never serve on any jury either. CBC North had me "Deceased" at Norman Wells, NWT after an a/c accident. They even called my wife in Winnipeg, who knew nothing about the accident and was pregnant at the time, to comment on the sudden death of her husband. She broke-down and miscarried the next day, CBC was sued by me, the reporter in question was fired and I won the lawsuit. That lawsuit was settled for $380,000 in 1970 dollars and all legal costs. Also involved was a very long and apologetic letter from Al Johnson, President and CEO of the CBC at that time. Ergo, I won't "Try"anyone/organization using any form of media as proof......I need a whole lot more than that. That feeling is the culmination of seeing them proved wrong too many times in a courtroom on the witness stand and having lost an unborn son decades ago to their reporting and actions. I didn't READ any of those occasions either........I LIVED them.

happily_retired ------ I stand corrected sir. Training for the RCMP is now 24 weeks and not 21 weeks as I wrongly stated.

I am also not blaming those who are trying to do the best they can with what they are given. I am blaming leadership of the RCMP of MY day who instituted all the massive changes with no regard whatsoever for the asked-for and given opinions of each and every lower-ranked Member of the RCMP of THAT day. It is that leadership of MY days in the RCMP who are to blame. Those of today don't know of any other system and that goes all the way up to the Commissioner himself........because he too, was trained under the new system. These new ideas and systems were instigated and put into place during the mid 60's and by the late 60's the "fruits" of that crop of new ideas were already appearing. They even got into "barn burning" outside Montreal and blamed it all on the FLQ for Christ's sake. The "screw-ups, "illegalities, etc. have grown even more frequent over the years and went uncorrected to the point of where we are today........so me and a host of ex-members have seen this crap coming for a long time. My point was that they were warned about this by their own Members as far back as '65. They were warned what would probably take place and it all did damnit......to the letter. Apologies if you misunderstood me. I'll assume that my syntax was at fault for that also.

You cannot have a 100% success rate when training a very large group of people in the use of firearms....whether they were specially selected or not. The longer and the more severe that training is will undoubtedly increase your success rate though. All you can ever obtain is a very well trained and selected group where the chances of a misuse of a firearm is greatly less than those who didn't receive that training. Reduce the severity of the selection process and/or reduce the length of time for that training and you can expect that success rate mentioned above to be less also. I would like and greatly prefer to tell you that any policeman or soldier given a weapon will NEVER misuse that weapon......but sadly I can't. All I can do is point you towards the number of times that has occured over the history of that police force, the total number of members of that police force since their beginning and then sit in judgement of that police force THEN.

I might also add something that many members of the general public do not know. The RCMP Veterans Association has for almost 100 years published a magazine dubbed "The RCMP Gazette". They have all manner of articles in this magazine and amongst those articles are all of the Members who have retired recently, Members who have been convicted of some internal offense in Service Court, Members who received awards of some type and all those who have left the Force, the reasons why and what was written on their Discharge Certificate...."Honourable", "Satisfactory", "Unsatisfactory" or "Dishonourable" So nothing escapes anyone's eyes about anything.....bad or good. I might also add that RCMP HQ in Ottawa have no control whatsoever over what does and what doesn't get published in this magazine. So I am more than well aware of the frequency of Members getting their asses in "do-do". So, if for example, some Member found themselves in RCMP Service Court for "having debts which they were unwilling or unable to pay",that wouldn't make today's Press, but could and probably would get their asses cashiered from the RCMP if found guilty.

You are also completely correct about my statements concerning "mandatory postings". I'm afraid that you misunderstood me on that as I was just further explaining one of the many differences between today's RCMP and that of yesteryear. Perhaps people didn't know that about the RCMP in years gone by and expected that it was as it is today.......you want to be posted to your home Province......then they'll do their best to satisfy you. Decades ago that never happened.....and wasn't allowed.

[JakeYYZ]

What news of don Alfonso ?...have the RCMP decided to do the job they're hired to do yet ?....

[Driving Rain]

Driving Rain ------I was long gone from the RCMP by your time mentioned. I should also advise that RCMP HQ on Alta Vista Dr. in Ottawa seldom if ever confers with Constables on Deteachment concerning matters which are none of their business. I therefore, together with many thousand other ex-Members like me, will not accept blame for something in which we had no part of or weren't asked our opinions on before or after the event.

LH, no one, especially me is blaming you for outing the Allende government in Chile in 1973. The point was, longer basic training will never cure bone headedness at the top. That takes years of bureaucracy. Almost every cop I know has started out their career bright eyed and bushy tailed full of vim and vigour only to be driven down by the oppressive bureaucracy of their respective force, be it metro, regional, provincial or federal.

The story of your death and your wife's unfortunate reaction and loss of your child have my deepest sympathy. I see why you would mistrust reporters. I'm no fan of newspapers, Fox News or most reporters myself. Very few in aviation are because they don't understand our industry and often make glaring mistakes. The police by necessity have and still do use the press and the media. I'm sure there are many on both sides of the fence that have a deep mistrust of each other. You did however state that you believed what you've heard and read in the National and on the CBC in the Persian Gulf thread with respect to Afghanistan, so why would you not give a story that broke in 1973 in the Globe and Mail by a respected reporter the same benefit? For your info Ian Adams traveled throughout South America in the 70's and 80's covering the dirty wars down there. I happen to believe what he wrote. One of the reasons why CSIS was created was so our elected politicians could have some form of oversite in/on national security matters that they could never achieve with the RCMP. The Allende affair was part of the first nails in that coffin. As we all know 911 panic has reversed much of that to our detriment.

LH

I know what I read, seen on "The National" and other news sources on this subject.

LH

I won't "Try"anyone/organization using any form of media as proof......I need a whole lot more than that.

Fair enough! The RCMP however take what is written very seriously. Remember the Ottawa reporter that had her house raided, notes and computers taken because she broke the Arar affair?

[LH]

Driving Rain .........do not use my reference to the CBC National or what I read about issues in Afghanistan or some similiar place as an indication of my confidence in the media for accuracy.......it is but one source. I also don't put anymore stock in some person who writes a book about something. I need FURTHER proof than that about any subject than one person's educated opinion and research. I'm a "creature" of my background and experience and that includes seeing too many liars defrocked in too many court rooms.

Your statement about the "length of training" and how it reflects on the actions of the Officers in Ottawa is partially correct. Your Officer Corps in the RCMP have all had the same training as all of their peers who aren't Officers and serve well.......and there the similarity ends abruptly.. What isn't generally known though is that they get promoted to Officer rank AND THEN they go into Officer Basic Training which they must pass BEFORE assuming that rank of Sub-Inspector. Neither I nor any Member of the Force who is NOT of Officer rank have ever had ANY idea whatsoever as to what that training entails.

I can't even begin to discuss how things operate within the RCMP on the scale that you need to be informed about. This is not "talking down" to you or anyone else for that matter.......it's because the basics that you need to know to make an informed judgement are much too involved and long to recite here. Naturally, it would foster questions that should be answered and again take much too much space here for that. ONCE you had that knowledge, then you would be able to answer a whole bunch of your own questions and correct your misunderstanding of other events. Some of the incidents that you have mentioned have a viable explanation and some don't. I also know that and I don't have ALL the details about any of these cases and therefore I cannot/will not make a decision or allocate blame because I am ill-informed. Unless you or some reporter have further detailed, factual information on the whole case then you are in the exact, same boat as me. I also understand that because of the possible actions of some Officers at the top of the Force, we cannot blame all of the rest.......but they will be. Heard it many times before...."Well ya know, where there's one rotten apple, there's gotta be more".

The first understanding that MUST take place is that the normal, everyday RCMP Member of Constable to S/Sgt rank has as little to do with the Officer ranks as possible. The RCMP everyday, normal operations are run by the likes of Cpl's, Sgts and S/Sgts. An RCMP Cpl has about the same power in the RCMP as a Warrant Officer would in the military. Sgts are on the right hand side of God and S/Sgts ARE God. So you can now possibly inagine how far away from Officers that the average Mountie wishes to stay. Being summoned from Detachment into HQ at the behest of some Officer is a meeting that no RCMP Member of Constable to S/Sgt rank wants to hear for their whole career. Therefore, the actions....good or bad....of some very high-ranking RCMP Officers in Ottawa is so far divorced from the average RCMP Constable or NCO Member as to be those of another organization altogether.

Lastly, the Ottawa reporter that had her house raided had all that dome by Members acting under the orders of a very senior NCO or Officer. The one issuing those orders is where the blame should lay and not at the feet of 26,000 other Members who never knew about it and maybe didn't even agree with the actions. It also does not mean that the majority of the rest of the Force is "rotten to the core" and needs a big "shake-up". It is not the first time in the history of the RCMP or any other police agency either that an arrest was made with what was apparently good evidence at first and didn't hold-up later. Any such arrest involves Judges and government lawyers beforehand and so there are ample people to blame besides the RCMP on that one.

[Driving Rain]

LH

Any such arrest involves Judges and government lawyers beforehand and so there are ample people to blame besides the RCMP on that one.

Agreed but in this case the RCMP initiated and brought forward their own bogus evidence under the guise of a national security blanket in a blatant attemp to coverup their involvement in the whole affair. In other words they bamboozled the judges and lawyers. This is very easy to accomplish in these paranoid times. Oversite seems to mean after the fox has escaped the hen house.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm a fan of the RCMP. They are one of the finest police forces in the world. There is no other country on the planet that has a uniformed police officer has one of it's national symbols. Canadians can be justifiably proud of that. It speaks volumes about what Canadian values are and what we stand for not just for us but to the other peoples on this planet. We are a piece loving and for the most part law-abiding country. I think the top brass at the RCMP loose site of that fact from time to time. They need reminding from time to time.

[LH]

Driving Rain ------please allow me to assure you and all other Canadians who may have doubt, that police do not make out Search Warrants by themselves......can't be done because they don't have acess to the official forms for same. They can't even press charges without conferring with and getting the permission of an Attorney-General's Dept. or the Solicitor General, depending on whether it's a Provincial or Federal matter. So when someone states that some supposed police force "fucked-up" in using a Search Warrant, please keep in mind the list of people who were involved in that supposed "@#$!-up":

1) The number of Members involved in executing that Search Warrant. (2+)

2) The senior NCO who supplied the supposed evidence to the Crown Attorney or Federal lawyer. If it's a provincial matter, then that Crown Attorney also has to advise his boss, the Attorney General of all the events concerning that application and evidence supplied for the Warrant. If Federal, the Federal lawyer(s) must do exactly the same with regards his boss, the Solicitor General. (at least 3)

3) A Judge of the Provincial Court or a Federal Judge also is involved to sign the said Search Warrant. (1)

There are now at least 6 people minimum who are involved and the majority of them are NOT members of the police force, but of the legal community. If you "bamboozle" or "screw" with these members of the legal community and put them and their careers in a "bad light" because you lied you must always remember that you will have to work with these people again, whether you like it or not. If you "screw" then badly enough, then you might as well ask for a posting to another part of Canada if you are a Member of the RCMP or if a local police force, your career as an active, ouside-the-office- policeman has come to an end. All this is because from that day onwards those people who were involved and their departments will slow it down and "bog-it-down" your incoming paperwork to the point where you can not longer do your job satisfactorily and you are finally forced out of your job and/or career. In otherwards, they "have ways of taking care" of those members of a police force who dare to put their careers in jeparody or hold them up to public scorn.

In order to get the said Search Warrant that you mention, some senior Officer of that given CIS Branch would have had to know about it. He would have been given that information by some very senior investigating NCO of the same Branch and then the senior NCO OR the senior Officer would have contacted the members of the legal community named above. So when you state "the top brass of the RCMP" that cannot be allowed to "paint" ALL of the "top brass" with the same "shitty brush". The top brass that look after anything to do with Accounting in the RCMP have absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with the top brass in any other Branch of the RCMP.....except they wear the same uniform. So the Commissioner may have to know about a certain matter and he's where"the buck stops". Everyone, including the various top brass of the various Braches have enough "on their plate" that they do not have the time nor the contact with their peers in other Branches to have the slightest clue about what is happening over there. Ergo, when you hear that certain members of the senior top brass of the RCMP did or had inappropriate things to do with the penion fund, THAT means SOME senior top brass of the Accounting BRANCH of the RCMP AND their boss the COMMISSIONER. Even if the Commisssioner knew nothing about such happenings, HE is "where the buck stops" and he gets the vast majority of any fault or blame found.

Reporters and such, either on purpose or out of ignorance, don't mention this other list of people that are involved in obtaining Search Warrants and either just "dump" all blame on the given police force, a certain member of that given police force or some Crown Attorney possibly. Sorry, but it isn't now, nor ever was as simple as that. I know from witnessing it and being close to it, that "whoa betide" the stupid police person and their superiors who submit false evidence to obtain a Search Warrant from a Judge. If they wish to stunt and/or end their careers then that is the very best way to "fast track" that wish.