It would be interesting to know WHY the bank (Mercantile) decided to pull the plug. A couple of months ago there was a company meeting at which point much optimism was blown up employee's you-know-whats. According to the CEO, who resigned Thursday, things were positive: there were medevac and cargo contracts in place, and much cost-cutting had taken place. Stupid initiatives such as in-house AME training, money-losing skeds, and third-party maintenance - all gone. The focus was to be long-term cargo and BCAS contracts.
It has been mentioned that the BCAS contract was underbid to obtain it. That was why Mercatile was telling employees it was trying to renegotiate terms to allow Westex to survive while providing a proper service. I tend to believe talks between D.T and a certain American female beancounter at BCAS probably didn't work out.
Well, BCAS will get a taste of what it truly costs to operate a jet and turboprop fleet if they choose to use Borek/CGAA et al...you can bet they aren't giving lowball contract rates. Sad thing is, the actual people who use the service - the paramedics - all acknowledged the Westex service/people was second to none. The only problem had been downtime, but when you're not given a dime of proper support, it's hard to keep machines running, especially somehing like a Lear 31.
If D.O. could learn one lesson, that would be it - don't undercapitilize your maintenance! Downtime on a medevac contract is far most costly than keeping proper stores on hand and proper staffing/experience levels of AME's! Oh, and blaming the pilots for grounding planes because they simply aren't safe to fly is not the answer!!
Will WESTEX survive?
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
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complexintentions
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hey complex,
first you say "Stupid initiatives such as in-house AME training" was costing Westex way to much, then you say one of the answers to a sucessful future is "proper staffing/experience levels of AME's!"
Now I have been in this industry many years and seen many areas of a sucessful operation and in-house training is not "Stupid" especially when it comes to AME's. It saves alot of money!!! Let's see send a AME to montreal to get a Pratt heavy maintenace cert. or recieve the cert. in-house. hummmm........ with a heavy maintence cert. a company saves thousand on be able to do such this as HSI in-house. If you want experienced staff train, train, train!
first you say "Stupid initiatives such as in-house AME training" was costing Westex way to much, then you say one of the answers to a sucessful future is "proper staffing/experience levels of AME's!"
Now I have been in this industry many years and seen many areas of a sucessful operation and in-house training is not "Stupid" especially when it comes to AME's. It saves alot of money!!! Let's see send a AME to montreal to get a Pratt heavy maintenace cert. or recieve the cert. in-house. hummmm........ with a heavy maintence cert. a company saves thousand on be able to do such this as HSI in-house. If you want experienced staff train, train, train!
Complex,
I hate to deliver bad news, but the paramedics hate Westex.
I know this because I personally know many of them - and my father is one of them. Sure I hear the odd good thing but for the most part they don't like it and actually want Canada Jet and Anderson air back. The only reason Westex got the jet contract is because it was underbid. That is the biggest problem with companies these days is that there is always someone willing to underbid someone else. That leads to parts and staffing problems.
The government knows full well what it costs to run the air ambulance they had Canada jet and now Helijet and these guys are not doing it for nothing.
I hate to deliver bad news, but the paramedics hate Westex.
I know this because I personally know many of them - and my father is one of them. Sure I hear the odd good thing but for the most part they don't like it and actually want Canada Jet and Anderson air back. The only reason Westex got the jet contract is because it was underbid. That is the biggest problem with companies these days is that there is always someone willing to underbid someone else. That leads to parts and staffing problems.
The government knows full well what it costs to run the air ambulance they had Canada jet and now Helijet and these guys are not doing it for nothing.
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complexintentions
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Whoa there Nelly...we're talking about two different things here!
The maintenance issues I was referring to, have to do with not being able to keep the equipment they need, their lifeblood - cargo and medevac a/c - operational. That has everything to do with money! For example, when Westex started operating jets, they didn't have a single replacement part on the shelf, nor provision or dollars to get them! So, when some delicate part of a multi-million dollar glass a/c went u/s - instant downtime! Which was compounded by the fact that now you have to LOCATE the part, order it, and even AOG, it takes time! Translation: no a/c, BCAS unhappy. Not the pilot's fault. Not the AME's fault. Just piss-poor planning and zero experience with this type of operation, and a contract with absolutely no money for maintenance.
The in-house maintenance training was a fiasco. I don't think you really know much about the actual inner workings of the company. This was not about training the Westex maintenance personnell. It was a venture to try and train other company's AME's, for example they did a BE200 groundschool for AME's that had guys from Keewatin in YWG and so forth here to do the course.
Problem was, they had fulltime staff to administrate this little program and it didn't pay for it's own costs, heck I don't even know it ever did more than few courses.
You're totally mistaking my derision of "in-house training". I was referring more to the concept of diluting your company's core businesses. Westex went from having a strong cargo contract position, to: trying to provide third-party maintenance (even though lacking enough personnell to care for their OWN equipment), and trying to run pax sked to Tofino (WTF?!), and trying to make money training other people's AME's. There just wasn't enough cash to sustain all that growth simultaneously. Throw in a medevac contract that wasn't bid in any sort of concept of reality and here they are today.
Their only hope is that BCAS management get their heads out of her proverbial arse and realize that what they want and need, will take $$! Whether it be Westex or Company X flying it - they'll have to pay for it! BCAS already has a rep for bankrupting companies (how DO you amortize the cost of multi-million dollar equipment when the contract length is only five years?!)! The huge advantage in using Westex is that the fleet infrastructure is already there - it would be woefully tragic management that thought they could re-bid it and start from scratch (this time with a much higher cost) and have it be cheaper!! Like I said the complaints with Westex were never about the quality of the service - it's just the service couldn't be provided much of the time due to a/c unserviceability, due to the issues already mentioned.
The maintenance issues I was referring to, have to do with not being able to keep the equipment they need, their lifeblood - cargo and medevac a/c - operational. That has everything to do with money! For example, when Westex started operating jets, they didn't have a single replacement part on the shelf, nor provision or dollars to get them! So, when some delicate part of a multi-million dollar glass a/c went u/s - instant downtime! Which was compounded by the fact that now you have to LOCATE the part, order it, and even AOG, it takes time! Translation: no a/c, BCAS unhappy. Not the pilot's fault. Not the AME's fault. Just piss-poor planning and zero experience with this type of operation, and a contract with absolutely no money for maintenance.
The in-house maintenance training was a fiasco. I don't think you really know much about the actual inner workings of the company. This was not about training the Westex maintenance personnell. It was a venture to try and train other company's AME's, for example they did a BE200 groundschool for AME's that had guys from Keewatin in YWG and so forth here to do the course.
Problem was, they had fulltime staff to administrate this little program and it didn't pay for it's own costs, heck I don't even know it ever did more than few courses.
You're totally mistaking my derision of "in-house training". I was referring more to the concept of diluting your company's core businesses. Westex went from having a strong cargo contract position, to: trying to provide third-party maintenance (even though lacking enough personnell to care for their OWN equipment), and trying to run pax sked to Tofino (WTF?!), and trying to make money training other people's AME's. There just wasn't enough cash to sustain all that growth simultaneously. Throw in a medevac contract that wasn't bid in any sort of concept of reality and here they are today.
Their only hope is that BCAS management get their heads out of her proverbial arse and realize that what they want and need, will take $$! Whether it be Westex or Company X flying it - they'll have to pay for it! BCAS already has a rep for bankrupting companies (how DO you amortize the cost of multi-million dollar equipment when the contract length is only five years?!)! The huge advantage in using Westex is that the fleet infrastructure is already there - it would be woefully tragic management that thought they could re-bid it and start from scratch (this time with a much higher cost) and have it be cheaper!! Like I said the complaints with Westex were never about the quality of the service - it's just the service couldn't be provided much of the time due to a/c unserviceability, due to the issues already mentioned.
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complexintentions
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I must say, if nicknames are to be taken literally, there sure is a lot of interest from guys flying Boeings in this shitty little level of the industry!! 
As far as the paramedics go, what you are saying "the paramedics hate Westex" is one of those stupid generalizations. It's true, and it isn't. There are a couple wingnuts working at WES that they don't like flying with, just as there are couple paramedics nobody wants to fly with. Such as it was in the days of CJC and Anderson. Nothing new. I too am very closely interconnected to much of this mess, and I know personally that the paramedics do not "hate Westex". They hate not having a reliable service and I don't blame them. Tell them to get on their oh-so-tough fem-boss. It was her intransigence on money matters that finally pushed Mercatile to the brink.
And lol at the statement they want CJC back - on the jet side at least, all the captains are ex-CJC - except now they have an a/c with serviceable radalt and GPWS (which CJC didn't have on that fateful flight into Masset).
Be careful what you wish for is all I say.
As far as the paramedics go, what you are saying "the paramedics hate Westex" is one of those stupid generalizations. It's true, and it isn't. There are a couple wingnuts working at WES that they don't like flying with, just as there are couple paramedics nobody wants to fly with. Such as it was in the days of CJC and Anderson. Nothing new. I too am very closely interconnected to much of this mess, and I know personally that the paramedics do not "hate Westex". They hate not having a reliable service and I don't blame them. Tell them to get on their oh-so-tough fem-boss. It was her intransigence on money matters that finally pushed Mercatile to the brink.
And lol at the statement they want CJC back - on the jet side at least, all the captains are ex-CJC - except now they have an a/c with serviceable radalt and GPWS (which CJC didn't have on that fateful flight into Masset).
Be careful what you wish for is all I say.
I agree with your statements about the way the company was run.
However a working rad alt and GPWS will not do you any good when the AC is sitting on the ground. As for the CJC equipment - it was not required (by BCAS) back then, and they (GPWS) weren't in widespread use (like today). If it was - it would have been installed, and if it wasn't a BCAS requirement now - Westex wouldn't have had it installed either. The CJC accident was attributed to a mis set altimeter, which any pilot could do. As for a non-working rad alt - tell me how many times Westex aircraft fly with everything working (no mel items)? Not often.
However a working rad alt and GPWS will not do you any good when the AC is sitting on the ground. As for the CJC equipment - it was not required (by BCAS) back then, and they (GPWS) weren't in widespread use (like today). If it was - it would have been installed, and if it wasn't a BCAS requirement now - Westex wouldn't have had it installed either. The CJC accident was attributed to a mis set altimeter, which any pilot could do. As for a non-working rad alt - tell me how many times Westex aircraft fly with everything working (no mel items)? Not often.
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complexintentions
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You keep making these sweeping statements with nothing to back them up. It is precisely because Westex aircraft will not fly without everything working that their uptime is so poor. Again, goes back to maintenance, again, goes back to $$. There was a time when it seemed Westex would allow any old POS to go flying. That came to an abrupt halt with the introduction of the jet program. You simply can't operate a turbojet aircraft that way. (You shouldn't be operating ANY equipment that way...) Check the downtime records. Why do you think they're so high, if everyone's taking out non-serviceable equipment as you allude to?
Besides, what do you base the statement about u/s equipment flying on? Your buddies at Westex? Hearsay? Rumour and innuendo, the foundation of aviation in Canada? Or do you work there, in which case you know first-hand that this goes on? And if so, why are you allowing it? Implying someone is operating in contravention of CARs is pretty good stuff, but you better be able to back it up with hard facts. Certain people like oh, lawyers, might take offense to such allegations on a public forum...
As far as the CJC incident, yes any pilot could mis-set an altimeter, which is precisely why it's stupid to want to go back to non-GPWS equipment - equipment that WOULD HAVE prevented that tragic accident. There are always those who complain about how things were so much better in the past, but an honest look at reality might reveal it maybe just wasn't quite so.
Besides, what do you base the statement about u/s equipment flying on? Your buddies at Westex? Hearsay? Rumour and innuendo, the foundation of aviation in Canada? Or do you work there, in which case you know first-hand that this goes on? And if so, why are you allowing it? Implying someone is operating in contravention of CARs is pretty good stuff, but you better be able to back it up with hard facts. Certain people like oh, lawyers, might take offense to such allegations on a public forum...
As far as the CJC incident, yes any pilot could mis-set an altimeter, which is precisely why it's stupid to want to go back to non-GPWS equipment - equipment that WOULD HAVE prevented that tragic accident. There are always those who complain about how things were so much better in the past, but an honest look at reality might reveal it maybe just wasn't quite so.
Whoa! Take it easy complex. This is quickly turning into a slagfest with which I have no desire to get into.
You are right - the biggest problem is lack of money, or lack to commit money, but at no time did I say or even imply that they were violating CARS. I asked how many times they (or anyone) flies with an MEL item? Answer: all the time - that's what the MEL is there for. To allow safe operation of an aircraft with a piece of equipment not working. Are you saying Westex doesn't have an approved MEL for the lear? If so maybe that's why they don't fly when something is broken.
As for the last comment on CJC. I never said we should go back to the old ways - just that back then GPWS was fairly new and not in widespread use. Anything that will reduce accidents should be used - which is why they should all have it today.
I took your comments to mean that CJC was not interested in safety and that somehow Westex is better than CJC because they have more equipment than CJC did 10 years ago. If I have misunderstood you I aploigize.
You are right - the biggest problem is lack of money, or lack to commit money, but at no time did I say or even imply that they were violating CARS. I asked how many times they (or anyone) flies with an MEL item? Answer: all the time - that's what the MEL is there for. To allow safe operation of an aircraft with a piece of equipment not working. Are you saying Westex doesn't have an approved MEL for the lear? If so maybe that's why they don't fly when something is broken.
As for the last comment on CJC. I never said we should go back to the old ways - just that back then GPWS was fairly new and not in widespread use. Anything that will reduce accidents should be used - which is why they should all have it today.
I took your comments to mean that CJC was not interested in safety and that somehow Westex is better than CJC because they have more equipment than CJC did 10 years ago. If I have misunderstood you I aploigize.
Few have understood or even relized, what the company went though to get those "new" BCAS aircraft up and running on top of retrofitting the exsisting aircraft to satisfy BCAS. The amount of hours, blood, and sweat each of the maintenance dept. personal had to do to get these airplanes in the air. It was insane! 
Yet they/we did it. We made a TON of honey out of dogs**t.
Nothing against BCAS, but they are a hard customer to satisfy. Ive even heard of one snag where the medic's were complaining that thier seat would not recline or there custom seat was "too hard", or its too hot. I could think up of so many non airworthy complaints that would make your head spin, but anyway...
Yes the Lears should be considered boat archors. Tight, picky, expensive, and are not ment to fly as much as they are. Less than 8 months, the one lear has done almost 1000hrs, these are someone toys, not work horses. As a long time veteran there, I think the jets were a mistake, but it was not our call. They had to come up with something, jet wise, and these two jets were at hands reach at the time. Being VERY low in the experiance dept. with jets, we are trying our best with what we got to keep them in the air. If the call came, where there was a broken airplane on the way in and it had to go again right away, near everyone on the floor would drop what they are doing and be ready to go into action, but like complex said its a parts thing.
The industry is part money, part manpower "experiance", and parts. Since when, nowa days, is there a company out there in aviation, that has $500,000 in there back pocket at a moments notice? Air Canada? Uhh no
Yet they/we did it. We made a TON of honey out of dogs**t.Nothing against BCAS, but they are a hard customer to satisfy. Ive even heard of one snag where the medic's were complaining that thier seat would not recline or there custom seat was "too hard", or its too hot. I could think up of so many non airworthy complaints that would make your head spin, but anyway...
Yes the Lears should be considered boat archors. Tight, picky, expensive, and are not ment to fly as much as they are. Less than 8 months, the one lear has done almost 1000hrs, these are someone toys, not work horses. As a long time veteran there, I think the jets were a mistake, but it was not our call. They had to come up with something, jet wise, and these two jets were at hands reach at the time. Being VERY low in the experiance dept. with jets, we are trying our best with what we got to keep them in the air. If the call came, where there was a broken airplane on the way in and it had to go again right away, near everyone on the floor would drop what they are doing and be ready to go into action, but like complex said its a parts thing.
The industry is part money, part manpower "experiance", and parts. Since when, nowa days, is there a company out there in aviation, that has $500,000 in there back pocket at a moments notice? Air Canada? Uhh no
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complexintentions
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boeingboy,
my turn to apologize, I took your comments to mean that aircraft were being dispatched unserviceable. That kind of stuff always gets me going, 99% of the guys I've flown with over the years are totally professional and wouldn't knowingly take a less than serviceable a/c. I certainly am not implying that CJC was unsafe, they were victims of a unfortunate, but preventable, incident. How the management treated its employees there, well that's another story. How many employees are there now? Oh wait - none! They're reduced to leasing two tired 35's to the newest player with delusions of grandeur.
metro,
I don't think you know anything about jet operations. The Lear (as a type, in particular the 30 series) has the best reliability record of any light business jet, period. Expensive? Did you think 450 knots would be cheap? You can have cheap, or you can have fast - not both. Guess what the Lear's mandate is.
When CJC operated them, I don't recall a shift EVER being cancelled due to aircraft unserviceability, or at least so rarely it was a massive anomaly. Perhaps you can explain the discrepancy? Yes, they had the benefit of being able to have more than one machine ready as a backup. But you know what? The contract BCAS SIGNED has no provision for a second jet!! What did they think, you could run a jet 24/7 and never have it break?! I'm sorry, but the source of the problem is the inability of the maintenance department to keep them running. That is NOT a dig at the maintenance people who do the best they can with no parts, no diagnostic gear, and no monetary support from above. If the airplane's there, the pilots will fly it. That's IT!
But your comments about "not meant to fly as much as they are" are incredibly uninformed. I guess that's why a tiny company like, oh, WALMART flies a fleet of 31's in a daily corporate airline. Those airframes average a lot more time than Westex flies and I'm going to guess Walmart wouldn't stand for a type that was broken all the time. So what's the excuse for the inability to keep ONE flying? Blame the aircraft? I don't think so.
To my understanding there is no legal MEL for the LR31. Kinda makes that debate irrelevant. Not sure what you're referring to with the $500,000.
All I can say is, I'm glad I live in Kleinville and not the circus the BC government is presiding over.
my turn to apologize, I took your comments to mean that aircraft were being dispatched unserviceable. That kind of stuff always gets me going, 99% of the guys I've flown with over the years are totally professional and wouldn't knowingly take a less than serviceable a/c. I certainly am not implying that CJC was unsafe, they were victims of a unfortunate, but preventable, incident. How the management treated its employees there, well that's another story. How many employees are there now? Oh wait - none! They're reduced to leasing two tired 35's to the newest player with delusions of grandeur.
metro,
I don't think you know anything about jet operations. The Lear (as a type, in particular the 30 series) has the best reliability record of any light business jet, period. Expensive? Did you think 450 knots would be cheap? You can have cheap, or you can have fast - not both. Guess what the Lear's mandate is.
When CJC operated them, I don't recall a shift EVER being cancelled due to aircraft unserviceability, or at least so rarely it was a massive anomaly. Perhaps you can explain the discrepancy? Yes, they had the benefit of being able to have more than one machine ready as a backup. But you know what? The contract BCAS SIGNED has no provision for a second jet!! What did they think, you could run a jet 24/7 and never have it break?! I'm sorry, but the source of the problem is the inability of the maintenance department to keep them running. That is NOT a dig at the maintenance people who do the best they can with no parts, no diagnostic gear, and no monetary support from above. If the airplane's there, the pilots will fly it. That's IT!
But your comments about "not meant to fly as much as they are" are incredibly uninformed. I guess that's why a tiny company like, oh, WALMART flies a fleet of 31's in a daily corporate airline. Those airframes average a lot more time than Westex flies and I'm going to guess Walmart wouldn't stand for a type that was broken all the time. So what's the excuse for the inability to keep ONE flying? Blame the aircraft? I don't think so.
To my understanding there is no legal MEL for the LR31. Kinda makes that debate irrelevant. Not sure what you're referring to with the $500,000.
All I can say is, I'm glad I live in Kleinville and not the circus the BC government is presiding over.
The one thing that i have always been curious about is why did Westex choose the 31's when there are surplus 35's and Citation II's kicking around. Why buy an oddball airplane? Because the winglets look good? I also seem to remember that BCAS originally wanted Bravo's or Ultra's but Westex ended up getting the 31's instead. Comments?
Because thats the way D.O. has always operated.
"It was a good deal"
They were laying out in storage and he got a "deal". Except that the 31 had never been certified in Canada. Then when the maintenance guys told him there were major mods that needed doing he ignored them. Well that cost MAJOR dollars to get them moded - not to mention putting the medivac interior in.
He did exactly the same thing with the 2nd and 3rd F-27.
"It was a good deal"
They were laying out in storage and he got a "deal". Except that the 31 had never been certified in Canada. Then when the maintenance guys told him there were major mods that needed doing he ignored them. Well that cost MAJOR dollars to get them moded - not to mention putting the medivac interior in.
He did exactly the same thing with the 2nd and 3rd F-27.
Boeingboy your exactly right......from what I heard D.O had a friend down in the states trying to get rid of them. I guess they helped each other; he got rid of the a/c and D.O got a good deal.
Complex, you talk alot about maintence being the problem but I have heard many complaints about the 31 pilot's say they all walk if they don't get more pay. Knowing full well that a 31 rated pilot is hard to come by and knowing they could get the company fined for down time.
Complex you do make alot of good points and back them very well, I can see your experience here. I think everything you state..... maintenace funding, in-house 3rd party traing, tofino run......etc all came together for the bankruptcy. well down i think everyone can agree on this?
Complex, you talk alot about maintence being the problem but I have heard many complaints about the 31 pilot's say they all walk if they don't get more pay. Knowing full well that a 31 rated pilot is hard to come by and knowing they could get the company fined for down time.
Complex you do make alot of good points and back them very well, I can see your experience here. I think everything you state..... maintenace funding, in-house 3rd party traing, tofino run......etc all came together for the bankruptcy. well down i think everyone can agree on this?
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Erect & Stable
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Hey "complex"...
I have read your posts on this subject, and there are a few areas that you've touched on that lead me to believe that... don't be offended... you are an escapee from a frontal lobotomy institute!
Relax, this is all in good fun. But I do realize you need to be set straight on a few things, so here I go...
Your quote..."Maybe the paramedics should ask their crews how many duty hours they've pulled in the last little while". Would you be referring to Kenn Borek, North Cariboo or CGAA crews with your question? Is it relevant to the topic of the post? This is a Westex forum, right?? We pilots are the ones that are ultimately responsible to ensure that flight duty times are not exceeded. You're not waving that finger at me with that question, are you?? Didn't think so...
Your quote..." Those clapped-out 35's run all over the world". Those "clapped-out 35's" are manufactured and certified under the same FAR part 25 "Airworthiness Standards: Transport Category Airplanes" that Boeings are. Not too sure what clapped-out represents to you, but if it's cycles, take a gander at the front of a 737-200 logbook. Lots still flying with over 3x the number of cycles. It's all a function of maintenance...
Your quote..."It has been mentioned that the BCAS contract was underbid to obtain it". And whose fault is that?? Seems to me Mercantile didn't assume control until well after the empire started to crumble. "Don't start vast projects with half-vast ideas"... Westex needs to be thankful they ended up with those two -31's, and not two new Citations like their original plan called for.
Your quote..."Their only hope is that BCAS management get their heads out of her proverbial arse and realize that what they want and need, will take $$!" I hate to ask this one...but, why is this the fault of BCAS management? Westex was the ones that put forward the bid...D.O., M.B. and company. Everyone with internet access could go online, download the RFP, and take a run at the contract. CJC had the contract for 25 years (!!!) and lost out to Westex?? Must be some new kind of math involved... Come, take a journey with me... go back 2 decades to when the provincial gov't handled the air ambulance program from within. I think they have a very good idea of the $$ involved to service the citizens of this province. Hence the need to outsource.
Your quote..."The huge advantage in using Westex is that the fleet infrastructure is already there - it would be woefully tragic management that thought they could re-bid it and start from scratch". Right, and just exactly how far away from "scratch" is Westex??? lol Lemme see...in addition to two airplanes they also have.... thats right... NOTHING!!
Your quote..."two tired 35's to the newest player with delusions of grandeur". No delusions, sorry. I know a few drivers at CGAA (if that's whom you were refering to) who have no problems at all travelling the world in those clapped-out old -35's, and without the benefit of GroundProx. New technology is great, don't get me wrong, but a heads-up crew also relies on something called "Situational Awareness" (old technology). All the technology in the world can't replace a well trained flight crew. The type of flying they do just affirms how good a Lear can be, even on old one, if it's had TLC in the form of good maintenance all it's life.
Your quote..."It is precisely because Westex aircraft will not fly without everything working that their uptime is so poor. Again, goes back to maintenance, again, goes back to $$. There was a time when it seemed Westex would allow any old POS to go flying. That came to an abrupt halt with the introduction of the jet program". My thoughts on this?? I think what changed their minds about allowing any old POS to go flying, so the story goes, was when they fired a pilot for refusing to fly a "POS". Wonder what hangar HE'S pushin' a broom in these days...
There you have it. I do my best not to get involved in things that don't concern me directly, but really. You took a shot at the -35, which made me read the rest of your posts, which made me respond to the rest of your posts.... Well, you get the idea.
So, no hard feelings, right?? Still friends ??
I have read your posts on this subject, and there are a few areas that you've touched on that lead me to believe that... don't be offended... you are an escapee from a frontal lobotomy institute!
Relax, this is all in good fun. But I do realize you need to be set straight on a few things, so here I go...Your quote..."Maybe the paramedics should ask their crews how many duty hours they've pulled in the last little while". Would you be referring to Kenn Borek, North Cariboo or CGAA crews with your question? Is it relevant to the topic of the post? This is a Westex forum, right?? We pilots are the ones that are ultimately responsible to ensure that flight duty times are not exceeded. You're not waving that finger at me with that question, are you?? Didn't think so...
Your quote..." Those clapped-out 35's run all over the world". Those "clapped-out 35's" are manufactured and certified under the same FAR part 25 "Airworthiness Standards: Transport Category Airplanes" that Boeings are. Not too sure what clapped-out represents to you, but if it's cycles, take a gander at the front of a 737-200 logbook. Lots still flying with over 3x the number of cycles. It's all a function of maintenance...
Your quote..."It has been mentioned that the BCAS contract was underbid to obtain it". And whose fault is that?? Seems to me Mercantile didn't assume control until well after the empire started to crumble. "Don't start vast projects with half-vast ideas"... Westex needs to be thankful they ended up with those two -31's, and not two new Citations like their original plan called for.
Your quote..."Their only hope is that BCAS management get their heads out of her proverbial arse and realize that what they want and need, will take $$!" I hate to ask this one...but, why is this the fault of BCAS management? Westex was the ones that put forward the bid...D.O., M.B. and company. Everyone with internet access could go online, download the RFP, and take a run at the contract. CJC had the contract for 25 years (!!!) and lost out to Westex?? Must be some new kind of math involved... Come, take a journey with me... go back 2 decades to when the provincial gov't handled the air ambulance program from within. I think they have a very good idea of the $$ involved to service the citizens of this province. Hence the need to outsource.
Your quote..."The huge advantage in using Westex is that the fleet infrastructure is already there - it would be woefully tragic management that thought they could re-bid it and start from scratch". Right, and just exactly how far away from "scratch" is Westex??? lol Lemme see...in addition to two airplanes they also have.... thats right... NOTHING!!
Your quote..."two tired 35's to the newest player with delusions of grandeur". No delusions, sorry. I know a few drivers at CGAA (if that's whom you were refering to) who have no problems at all travelling the world in those clapped-out old -35's, and without the benefit of GroundProx. New technology is great, don't get me wrong, but a heads-up crew also relies on something called "Situational Awareness" (old technology). All the technology in the world can't replace a well trained flight crew. The type of flying they do just affirms how good a Lear can be, even on old one, if it's had TLC in the form of good maintenance all it's life.
Your quote..."It is precisely because Westex aircraft will not fly without everything working that their uptime is so poor. Again, goes back to maintenance, again, goes back to $$. There was a time when it seemed Westex would allow any old POS to go flying. That came to an abrupt halt with the introduction of the jet program". My thoughts on this?? I think what changed their minds about allowing any old POS to go flying, so the story goes, was when they fired a pilot for refusing to fly a "POS". Wonder what hangar HE'S pushin' a broom in these days...
There you have it. I do my best not to get involved in things that don't concern me directly, but really. You took a shot at the -35, which made me read the rest of your posts, which made me respond to the rest of your posts.... Well, you get the idea.
So, no hard feelings, right?? Still friends ??
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complexintentions
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2186
- Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
- Location: of my pants is unknown.
Hiya E & S!
Sorry for the slow reply, I was just down at the Post Office picking up my home lobotomy kit - how did you KNOW?! I am flattered you would go to the effort of such elaborate selective deconstruction, allow me to return the favour!
""Maybe the paramedics should ask their crews how many duty hours they've pulled in the last little while". Would you be referring to Kenn Borek, North Cariboo or CGAA crews with your question? Is it relevant to the topic of the post? This is a Westex forum, right?? We pilots are the ones that are ultimately responsible to ensure that flight duty times are not exceeded. You're not waving that finger at me with that question, are you?? Didn't think so..."
This is an aviation forum, with a Westex thread. Flight safety is always a relevant topic in aviation. And duty times seem to me to be somewhat relevant, unless you feel they have no bearing on flight safety. I'm not waving that finger at anyone, I don't even know who you are (got my suspicions though)...
"Those "clapped-out 35's" are manufactured and certified under the same FAR part 25 "Airworthiness Standards: Transport Category Airplanes" that Boeings are. Not too sure what clapped-out represents to you, but if it's cycles, take a gander at the front of a 737-200 logbook. Lots still flying with over 3x the number of cycles. It's all a function of maintenance..."
Agreed. Clapped-out is my opinion, not a comment on their reliability. The 737-200 is a great example actually. A fine a/c, that has been worked to death and now being put out to pasture in droves by WJA and Zip. Those airframes will probably fly for many more years for some third-world operator paying low wages on a brutal schedule. Again, a very good parallel to the LR35 in Canada!
"I hate to ask this one...but, why is this the fault of BCAS management? Westex was the ones that put forward the bid...D.O., M.B. and company. Everyone with internet access could go online, download the RFP, and take a run at the contract. CJC had the contract for 25 years (!!!) and lost out to Westex?? Must be some new kind of math involved... Come, take a journey with me... go back 2 decades to when the provincial gov't handled the air ambulance program from within. I think they have a very good idea of the $$ involved to service the citizens of this province. Hence the need to outsource."
You must be kidding! Your comments answer your own question. If BCAS is so aware of what air ambulance costs, why were they so convinced it could be done for so much less than it had been in the past? Ultimately the decision as to who gets a contract is made by the "biddee", not the bidders!! BCAS got what they paid for, and so must shoulder the responsibility for that decision! You can knock Westex all you want for submitting the bid they did - but who chose it?! With, in your own words, full knowledge of what service really costs! Hellooooooo!!
"Your quote..."The huge advantage in using Westex is that the fleet infrastructure is already there - it would be woefully tragic management that thought they could re-bid it and start from scratch". Right, and just exactly how far away from "scratch" is Westex??? lol Lemme see...in addition to two airplanes they also have.... thats right... NOTHING!!"
Uh, right. As long as you disregard the 2-3 BE200's in YVR, 1 in YXS, 1 in YLW, and the -350 on backup in YVR. All equipped to BCAS spec, all under the same 24-hour dispatch. More than can be said of a dog's breakfast of BE90's with Alberta configs and the CGAA non-contract spec birds...debate all you want as to the value of GPWS/TCAS/Sat phones or what have you, but the contract requires a bunch of stuff that just ain't there.
"I know a few drivers at CGAA (if that's whom you were refering to) who have no problems at all travelling the world in those clapped-out old -35's, and without the benefit of GroundProx. New technology is great, don't get me wrong, but a heads-up crew also relies on something called "Situational Awareness" (old technology). All the technology in the world can't replace a well trained flight crew. The type of flying they do just affirms how good a Lear can be, even on old one, if it's had TLC in the form of good maintenance all it's life."
Uh, did you even read my post to the metro guy? I was actually defending the Lear's record and pointing out that it's completely possible to keep a Lear running reliably, they have for years at CJC. But as I also pointed out, all things eventually outlive their usefulness. How's that DRVSM working out?! And I'll bet that Masset crew's family, or the Sandspit crew would have appreciated some technological enhancement to their situational awareness, as "heads-up" as they might have been! As far as travelling all over the world...how DOES one overwing full-fuel a -35 in those 12 minute turns on the EXACTLY 14 hour duty itin? Oops getting back to duty days...
"Your quote..."It is precisely because Westex aircraft will not fly without everything working that their uptime is so poor. Again, goes back to maintenance, again, goes back to $$. There was a time when it seemed Westex would allow any old POS to go flying. That came to an abrupt halt with the introduction of the jet program". My thoughts on this?? I think what changed their minds about allowing any old POS to go flying, so the story goes, was when they fired a pilot for refusing to fly a "POS". Wonder what hangar HE'S pushin' a broom in these days..."
Gee I wonder! I read that pilot's 3-page incident report on the infamous metal flakes, it bears a striking literary similarity to a certain post! 
Of course we are still friends! It's all just in fun! Gotta go, early sim...
Sorry for the slow reply, I was just down at the Post Office picking up my home lobotomy kit - how did you KNOW?!
I am flattered you would go to the effort of such elaborate selective deconstruction, allow me to return the favour!""Maybe the paramedics should ask their crews how many duty hours they've pulled in the last little while". Would you be referring to Kenn Borek, North Cariboo or CGAA crews with your question? Is it relevant to the topic of the post? This is a Westex forum, right?? We pilots are the ones that are ultimately responsible to ensure that flight duty times are not exceeded. You're not waving that finger at me with that question, are you?? Didn't think so..."
This is an aviation forum, with a Westex thread. Flight safety is always a relevant topic in aviation. And duty times seem to me to be somewhat relevant, unless you feel they have no bearing on flight safety. I'm not waving that finger at anyone, I don't even know who you are (got my suspicions though
)..."Those "clapped-out 35's" are manufactured and certified under the same FAR part 25 "Airworthiness Standards: Transport Category Airplanes" that Boeings are. Not too sure what clapped-out represents to you, but if it's cycles, take a gander at the front of a 737-200 logbook. Lots still flying with over 3x the number of cycles. It's all a function of maintenance..."
Agreed. Clapped-out is my opinion, not a comment on their reliability. The 737-200 is a great example actually. A fine a/c, that has been worked to death and now being put out to pasture in droves by WJA and Zip. Those airframes will probably fly for many more years for some third-world operator paying low wages on a brutal schedule. Again, a very good parallel to the LR35 in Canada!
"I hate to ask this one...but, why is this the fault of BCAS management? Westex was the ones that put forward the bid...D.O., M.B. and company. Everyone with internet access could go online, download the RFP, and take a run at the contract. CJC had the contract for 25 years (!!!) and lost out to Westex?? Must be some new kind of math involved... Come, take a journey with me... go back 2 decades to when the provincial gov't handled the air ambulance program from within. I think they have a very good idea of the $$ involved to service the citizens of this province. Hence the need to outsource."
You must be kidding! Your comments answer your own question. If BCAS is so aware of what air ambulance costs, why were they so convinced it could be done for so much less than it had been in the past? Ultimately the decision as to who gets a contract is made by the "biddee", not the bidders!! BCAS got what they paid for, and so must shoulder the responsibility for that decision! You can knock Westex all you want for submitting the bid they did - but who chose it?! With, in your own words, full knowledge of what service really costs! Hellooooooo!!
"Your quote..."The huge advantage in using Westex is that the fleet infrastructure is already there - it would be woefully tragic management that thought they could re-bid it and start from scratch". Right, and just exactly how far away from "scratch" is Westex??? lol Lemme see...in addition to two airplanes they also have.... thats right... NOTHING!!"
Uh, right. As long as you disregard the 2-3 BE200's in YVR, 1 in YXS, 1 in YLW, and the -350 on backup in YVR. All equipped to BCAS spec, all under the same 24-hour dispatch. More than can be said of a dog's breakfast of BE90's with Alberta configs and the CGAA non-contract spec birds...debate all you want as to the value of GPWS/TCAS/Sat phones or what have you, but the contract requires a bunch of stuff that just ain't there.
"I know a few drivers at CGAA (if that's whom you were refering to) who have no problems at all travelling the world in those clapped-out old -35's, and without the benefit of GroundProx. New technology is great, don't get me wrong, but a heads-up crew also relies on something called "Situational Awareness" (old technology). All the technology in the world can't replace a well trained flight crew. The type of flying they do just affirms how good a Lear can be, even on old one, if it's had TLC in the form of good maintenance all it's life."
Uh, did you even read my post to the metro guy? I was actually defending the Lear's record and pointing out that it's completely possible to keep a Lear running reliably, they have for years at CJC. But as I also pointed out, all things eventually outlive their usefulness. How's that DRVSM working out?! And I'll bet that Masset crew's family, or the Sandspit crew would have appreciated some technological enhancement to their situational awareness, as "heads-up" as they might have been! As far as travelling all over the world...how DOES one overwing full-fuel a -35 in those 12 minute turns on the EXACTLY 14 hour duty itin? Oops getting back to duty days...
"Your quote..."It is precisely because Westex aircraft will not fly without everything working that their uptime is so poor. Again, goes back to maintenance, again, goes back to $$. There was a time when it seemed Westex would allow any old POS to go flying. That came to an abrupt halt with the introduction of the jet program". My thoughts on this?? I think what changed their minds about allowing any old POS to go flying, so the story goes, was when they fired a pilot for refusing to fly a "POS". Wonder what hangar HE'S pushin' a broom in these days..."
Gee I wonder!
I read that pilot's 3-page incident report on the infamous metal flakes, it bears a striking literary similarity to a certain post! Of course we are still friends! It's all just in fun! Gotta go, early sim...
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Pitch Head
- Rank 0
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:20 pm
First of all...Great post E&S. You nailed it right on the head.
Secondly for "complex"...
You say....
"Are you by any chance going to CGAA!? If so you have my sympathies!"
"Maybe the paramedics should ask their crews how many duty hours they've pulled in the last little while"
"Those clapped-out 35's run all over the world".
"two tired 35's to the newest player with delusions of grandeur".
The only delusions of gander here is you and the statements you make, and Oh by the way as far as I know this is the second 30 day contract they have done since Westex has had the contract, plus hundreds of hours on BCAS in-between, with those old clapped out 35's.
I feel a little resentment towards CGAA and CJC. What is it? Did one of them fire you, turn you down. Patiently waiting your reply...
Good luck in your future endeavors....
PH
Secondly for "complex"...
You say....
"Are you by any chance going to CGAA!? If so you have my sympathies!"
"Maybe the paramedics should ask their crews how many duty hours they've pulled in the last little while"
"Those clapped-out 35's run all over the world".
"two tired 35's to the newest player with delusions of grandeur".
The only delusions of gander here is you and the statements you make, and Oh by the way as far as I know this is the second 30 day contract they have done since Westex has had the contract, plus hundreds of hours on BCAS in-between, with those old clapped out 35's.
I feel a little resentment towards CGAA and CJC. What is it? Did one of them fire you, turn you down. Patiently waiting your reply...
Good luck in your future endeavors....
PH
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Erect & Stable
- Rank 0
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:11 pm
Hey "Complex"....
From your post, I gather you used your do-it-yourself frontal lobotomy kit between paragraphs one and two.
Your quote: "If BCAS is so aware of what air ambulance costs, why were they so convinced it could be done for so much less than it had been in the past? Ultimately the decision as to who gets a contract is made by the "biddee", not the bidders!!" Now that makes me laugh, which is good, laughter is the best medicine. Any level of government, unfortunately, will usually award a contract to the lowest bidder (isn’t that sad?). Having said that, don't you have to wonder if the "winning" bid was composed over a couple of pints at the 'Dew, and the napkin it was written on faxed over to BCAS?? Maybe CJC lost the race because they actually wanted to make a few $$, or at least break even. After 25 years of doing air ambulance, I'm sure K.J. had a very good idea of the $$ required to keep it safe but "profitable". Ever wonder how many operators in the world are in this game just to keep pilots and AME's gainfully employed?? Another question...If you're the lowest bidder and emerge the winner, should you have the right to run to the gov't and say "we screwed up..need more money or we'll pull out"? Where does the blame lie for the mess Westex is in? IMHO, on the shoulders of the Westex Old Boys Club. However, having said that, BCAS should have NEVER given the contract for the entire province to one operator. One bad audit by Transport could shut down the entire air ambulance program. But wait a minute...Westex have a bad audit??? Never !!!! LOL 
You commented on the fact that Westex had some aircraft (BE-20's) on BCAS work prior to the Lears. You are right, sorry 'bout that. I forgot that if you are running King Airs, that makes you an expert on all things Lear. Silly me... Westex got greedy, now they have a price to pay for that greed.
Your quote: "the contract requires a bunch of stuff that just ain't there", referring to CGAA and Borek aircraft I believe. Most of the crap in the RFP was stuff that BCAS wanted just because it sounded cool!!! Given a choice, I think BCAS would now forego all the glitz-and-glamor toys for a fleet that doesn't suffer from excessive down-time. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that TCAS/TAWS/SAT phones etc. don't enhance safety. That's a given. But just ask Flight Safety, in their opinion, what the best safety device in any aircraft is?? (hint: it ain't TCAS!!)
Your quote: "how DOES one overwing full-fuel a -35 in those 12 minute turns on the EXACTLY 14 hour duty itin? Oops getting back to duty days... " Twelve minute turns ?!?! Those fools at CGAA!! Anybody knows it takes 14 minutes to quickturn a Lear, duh... It takes more than 12 minutes for a smoke, cup of coffee and a "full procedure let-down on the white porcelain throne" (to quote a good friend).
Well, now I'm the one thats gotta run. BTW, rumor has it Westex has been given yet ANOTHER chance to make things right. Even a cat only has nine lives!! Simply prolonging the inevitable...
So...how was sim??
From your post, I gather you used your do-it-yourself frontal lobotomy kit between paragraphs one and two.
Your quote: "If BCAS is so aware of what air ambulance costs, why were they so convinced it could be done for so much less than it had been in the past? Ultimately the decision as to who gets a contract is made by the "biddee", not the bidders!!" Now that makes me laugh,
which is good, laughter is the best medicine. Any level of government, unfortunately, will usually award a contract to the lowest bidder (isn’t that sad?). Having said that, don't you have to wonder if the "winning" bid was composed over a couple of pints at the 'Dew, and the napkin it was written on faxed over to BCAS?? Maybe CJC lost the race because they actually wanted to make a few $$, or at least break even. After 25 years of doing air ambulance, I'm sure K.J. had a very good idea of the $$ required to keep it safe but "profitable". Ever wonder how many operators in the world are in this game just to keep pilots and AME's gainfully employed?? Another question...If you're the lowest bidder and emerge the winner, should you have the right to run to the gov't and say "we screwed up..need more money or we'll pull out"? Where does the blame lie for the mess Westex is in? IMHO, on the shoulders of the Westex Old Boys Club. However, having said that, BCAS should have NEVER given the contract for the entire province to one operator. One bad audit by Transport could shut down the entire air ambulance program. But wait a minute...Westex have a bad audit??? Never !!!! LOL You commented on the fact that Westex had some aircraft (BE-20's) on BCAS work prior to the Lears. You are right, sorry 'bout that. I forgot that if you are running King Airs, that makes you an expert on all things Lear. Silly me... Westex got greedy, now they have a price to pay for that greed.
Your quote: "the contract requires a bunch of stuff that just ain't there", referring to CGAA and Borek aircraft I believe. Most of the crap in the RFP was stuff that BCAS wanted just because it sounded cool!!! Given a choice, I think BCAS would now forego all the glitz-and-glamor toys for a fleet that doesn't suffer from excessive down-time. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that TCAS/TAWS/SAT phones etc. don't enhance safety. That's a given. But just ask Flight Safety, in their opinion, what the best safety device in any aircraft is?? (hint: it ain't TCAS!!)
Your quote: "how DOES one overwing full-fuel a -35 in those 12 minute turns on the EXACTLY 14 hour duty itin? Oops getting back to duty days... " Twelve minute turns ?!?! Those fools at CGAA!! Anybody knows it takes 14 minutes to quickturn a Lear, duh... It takes more than 12 minutes for a smoke, cup of coffee and a "full procedure let-down on the white porcelain throne" (to quote a good friend).
Well, now I'm the one thats gotta run. BTW, rumor has it Westex has been given yet ANOTHER chance to make things right. Even a cat only has nine lives!! Simply prolonging the inevitable...
So...how was sim??
Human nature never ceases to amaze me.
This forum starts off with the appearance of genuine concern over the fate of WestEx and it's employees. Thirty-odd posts later, here we are, fully involved in a "slagfest". What once was "wonder how WestEx will make out" has now become "Oh yeah, well, what about CGAA and CJC.... they're just as bad, right?? .. what about them"??? Unbelievable.
I figured I'd have a look at this forum, after all, I have been "alluded" to a few times, so I figure it's probably in my best interest. I'd hate to have any vicious rumors started about me, well, any new ones that is...
As for me, I sympathize with the "employees" at WestEx, period. Lots of good people working there who shouldn't have this cr*p hanging over their heads day in and day out... they deserve better.
Guess I better get back to work. The boss is nagging me to get those silver flakes swept off the hangar floor with my broom (does .81 mach, BTW)!
This forum starts off with the appearance of genuine concern over the fate of WestEx and it's employees. Thirty-odd posts later, here we are, fully involved in a "slagfest". What once was "wonder how WestEx will make out" has now become "Oh yeah, well, what about CGAA and CJC.... they're just as bad, right?? .. what about them"??? Unbelievable.
I figured I'd have a look at this forum, after all, I have been "alluded" to a few times, so I figure it's probably in my best interest. I'd hate to have any vicious rumors started about me, well, any new ones that is...
As for me, I sympathize with the "employees" at WestEx, period. Lots of good people working there who shouldn't have this cr*p hanging over their heads day in and day out... they deserve better.
Guess I better get back to work. The boss is nagging me to get those silver flakes swept off the hangar floor with my broom (does .81 mach, BTW)!
Hot off the press... straight goods. WestEx made top of the news this afternoon at 4:00 in Prince George. " has filed for bankruptcy protection" ... " needs $6,000,000 " ... blah, blah. Not exactly the way they would like to hear the company make the news, I'll bet.
Stay tuned for late breaking developments.
Stay tuned for late breaking developments.
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waywhite4president
- Rank 0
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:15 am
