Still taking low timers?

[Viking]

I dont believe experiance(time and real world experiance) means that that makes someone a better pilot. Its all about the training someone recieves and I guess Jazz thinks that their training is good enough that they can take a 250 hour guy and turn him into a good FO.

Be glad it is a competition of the best college pilots in the country, in the states all you have to do is pay your way in to a regional. Expensive training programs that put anyone into the right seat of an RJ.

Not that this applies to me, I personaly am thinking about taking the airforce route

Are you on crack? You're in for a huge wakeup call.........let me guess, low timer? Dude you have ZERO clue what you are dribbling here.

[Ali G]

Mogas,

I don't blame them, either Jazz or the graduate. Jazz needs to find creative ways to staff their aircraft because the industry is moving. They will not pay more, that is clear.

I am not sure why you place your anger on the college guys. You would have jumped at the chance yourself. Don't even try to give me that crap about how "I wanted to learned to be a real pilot, blah blah...."

If Jazz would have called you when you finished your licenses and ratings, you would have gone.

I would have done it. Now, I would have to take a pay cut to go there.

Get over it.

[PeteThePilot]

Keep in mind that the grads from Seneca (if not some others) have some sort of time in their RJ sim. I have no idea of the hours but coming right out of CP's mouth was "these grads are better trained (on the RJ) then our FO's".

I think that is probably the underlying reason that this is getting pushed through. Somebody somewhere was made to believe that these 200 grads with 50 hours in an RJ sim would be better than a 1000 instructor with no jet sim time, SOP knowledge, multi-crew experience, etc.

And what if they need Dash pilots at the time? I guess all their fancy RJ training goes out the window... This has nothing to do with qualifications. (They will be trained till they get it right no matter how long it takes.They can't have their superstar cadets failing out now can they?) Its all about money. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either A) a complete idiot or B) someone who has absolutely no idea of what is really going on in the industry.

Well of course its about money - they are not going to hire and train these grads out of the goodness of their hearts. But it is a lot easier for the company to swallow (and pass off) if the candidates come from a respected training program and have training on type.

[Sage]

And can you picture the top grad, the "best" from his/her school, with their Ray Ban aviators along with the hat and suit, Breitling watch, after flying for the nation's third biggest airline:

Small correction here for everybody: Jazz is the nation's second biggest airline.

[TAIL SLIDE]

Long time lurker....I agree with most of what is said, but I'd say the truth is the whole college thing is their way of getting a system in place to be able to transition real low timers when it becomes absolutely necessary. Like a lot of folks are saying there are guys out there that are just below their requirements right now, and the fact that they are not getting calls says to me that they still have enough resumes to pick from. Should that change in the future then good on Jazz for having a system in place to grab the brightest out of collage. That’s what other industries do. Only time will tell. That being said I’m sure the real world will slap that smile from any college direct entry FO fast enough. hopefully book smarts isn't the only criteria that they are looking for.I tell yah though, five years ago I would have loved the opportunity.

SLIDE

[Stinky]

Right now there are hundreds, if not thousands of pilots in Canada building time on Navajos, King Airs, Metros etc.
In a year or two many of these guys will be applying to Jazz, there will not be a shortage of pilots because there is so much flying at the lower levels.
This is financially motivated. McJazz is going to do everything they can to get there planes from point A to point B as cheaply as possible. Just look at the wages of the new FA's.

[shamrock104]

It really is time to stop the bitching and griping and get on with your own careers. Regardless of whether you worked the ramp, headed North or pumped gas to get you there the aviation world owes no one a living.
You chose that particular route for whatever reason and I hope no one was made to do it. If things didnt work out as planned move on and look at other options.If the pressure is too much get out and look at other careers. If it works good for the grads so be it. If not, hopefully they will be held to the high standard that everyone else is expected to maintain.

[linebacker35]

Linebacker, you have a few spelling mistakes. I'm not too sure if you can spell correctly or not pay enough attention to your typing skills. I feel real safe now knowing that a college grad might enter the wrong info while programming an FMS.

I blame my poor spelling on my 7 years as a football player and boxer

[linebacker35]

I dont believe experiance(time and real world experiance) means that that makes someone a better pilot. Its all about the training someone recieves and I guess Jazz thinks that their training is good enough that they can take a 250 hour guy and turn him into a good FO.

Be glad it is a competition of the best college pilots in the country, in the states all you have to do is pay your way in to a regional. Expensive training programs that put anyone into the right seat of an RJ.

Not that this applies to me, I personaly am thinking about taking the airforce route

Are you on crack? You're in for a huge wakeup call.........let me guess, low timer? Dude you have ZERO clue what you are dribbling here.

Can you please explain what part of my post shows I have no clue what im talking about?
I admit I dont even have my commercial right now(Im gonna take the AirForce route). Great training beats lots of experiance anytime, thats all im trying to say. A Airforce pilot with 300 hours is just as competent as a bush pilot with 6000 hours(even more competent in my opinion).

[Dark Helmet]

This whole "planning for the future" thing is total crap. If this was the case, AC, WJ, AT, SKY, even Porter would be looking at this avenue.

Personally I don't envy these college grads. They will be missing out on some of the funnest flying will you ever get to do in your career. Don't get me wrong Jazz is good gig and a Damn good first job. However I am lucky I had the opportunity to work at other places before coming here.

The fact that Jazz is hiring low time pilots does not upset me. It is the reasoning behind this that bothers me (see bcflyer post).

[Dark Helmet]

[/quote] admit I dont even have my commercial right now(Im gonna take the AirForce route). Great training beats lots of experiance anytime, thats all im trying to say. A Airforce pilot with 300 hours is just as competent as a bush pilot with 6000 hours(even more competent in my opinion[quote]

Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion

[linebacker35]

Haha. You realize that an air force pilot flies about 5-10 hours a month right. I've seen their profiles, oh fukn 13 years in the air force with only 800 hours total. The rest of the time you do paperwork, if not worse, a "coffee bitch".
Ya, you're really competent alright...at competing with Starbucks. Just hope to go to Afghanistan to build hours.

I haven't flown in the bush so don't go thinking I'm some bush pilot with great fukn skills.

Are you serious, making insulting remarks about the men and women that serve this country? You DONT ENLIST IN THE AIRFORCE TO BUILD TIME! Every pilot there is there to serve their country, not to pad a resume.
Yup the government spends $2.5 million to train each pilot to do paper work and be a "coffee bitch"

ps. that 800 hour "coffee bitch" ends up getting hired at AC ahead of 10,000 hour Jazz captains

[Adam44]

Haha. You realize that an air force pilot flies about 5-10 hours a month right. I've seen their profiles, oh fukn 13 years in the air force with only 800 hours total. The rest of the time you do paperwork, if not worse, a "coffee bitch".

To an extent. From what I've been told, they fly a desk and run for coffee for several years while they're waiting to get placed on flying courses. As for time building, fighter pilots are only expected to fly 180 hours a year. Guys flying transport and helicopters fly much more than that.

But I do not agree that the air force pilot with 300 hours is more competent than the bush pilot with 6,000 hours. Experience is experience.

Personally, if I was in the Air Force, I would not give up the officer salary and the pension benefits to fly for Jazz. That's a pretty steep drop...

[2low]

..

[KAG]

Comparing military flying to airline flying is apples and oranges. Any Jazz pilot is more prepared to fly at AC then any military pilot. Different skill sets. Your not going to be taking an EMJ into a bombing run, or hovering an a320 doing an off shore rescue. Not knocking the military, just making a point.

As for hiring new low time pilots, it's a safety risk that the traveling public should not be experimented on. Frankly Canadian pilots (low timers) are not trained to anywhere near the level they are in Europe or Asia when talking airline ops. Those programs are geared for a multi crew jet. We are trained to actually fly (light singles/twins) and accrue experience, where as they are trained to manage.

I wonder how this recent accident Jazz had will effect the hiring of 250-hour pilots, if the accident does turn out to be pilot error. Not saying it is, but I can’t see this being an argument for hiring lower time pilots.

It can be done, but why do it when you have son many 1000-2000 hours drivers who would jump at Jazz, and at least have some experience. It's not rocket science, but it's not a cake walk either.

[Viking]

OK, Analogy time.

Take a formula one race car driver with ten years of proffesion behind him or her. Knows his stuff, reaction is second nature. Now take an intelligent and also adept inexperienced driver and put him or her through "great" race car driver training. No matter how good that training is, will he be an equal match to the experinced driver? The answer is no in most circumstances.

I dont believe experiance(time and real world experiance) means that that makes someone a better pilot. Its all about the training someone recieves and I guess Jazz thinks that their training is good enough that they can take a 250 hour guy and turn him into a good FO.

Be glad it is a competition of the best college pilots in the country, in the states all you have to do is pay your way in to a regional. Expensive training programs that put anyone into the right seat of an RJ.

Not that this applies to me, I personaly am thinking about taking the airforce route

Are you on crack? You're in for a huge wakeup call.........let me guess, low timer? Dude you have ZERO clue what you are dribbling here.

Can you please explain what part of my post shows I have no clue what im talking about?
I admit I dont even have my commercial right now(Im gonna take the AirForce route). Great training beats lots of experiance anytime, thats all im trying to say. A Airforce pilot with 300 hours is just as competent as a bush pilot with 6000 hours(even more competent in my opinion).

[linebacker35]

I think its just a totaly differant mentality here in canada from the states. Since Ive been living down there for the last little bit, I think the American way. Military is king in the states

All im trying to say is more hours doesnt equal better pilot. Chris Hadfield who flew the F18's, test pilot in the US Navy, Astronaut im sure has only a few thousand hours. But he is probably one of the most capable pilots in the world.

[Dark Helmet]

Not to sound condescending towards you Linebacker. But here are things about aviation.

ps. that 800 hour "coffee bitch" ends up getting hired at AC ahead of 10,000 hour Jazz captains

Hmmmmmmm. First of all, that may be because of politics not because the miliatry pilot is above all civilian pilots. Try to grasp that for a second.

Besides you won't get on with AC at 800, Their minimums are 1000. That is another 2 years worth of flying.

Plus Air Canada wont be around by the time you finish in the air force.

Try to grasp that one as well.


I am not trying to knock the military here. It is a good career choice, goood training, experince and yes some do make it in the Civilian world after.

Now you come here running your mouth like a 800 hour military pilot can outfly any 10,000 hour civilian pilot, and that is coming from someone who:

-Has not done any civilian flying
-Has not done any military flying
-Does not even have a commercial license yet.

You can put a civillian pilot and a military pilot on the same cockpit and I am sure they can learn a lot from each other.

Good luck with your military career

Cheers

P.S. The government does not always spend their money wisely either.

[Rockie]

That 2.5 mil you're talking about includes:

-your plane tickets to and from basic
-your meals, accommodation, your C7 bullets
-french lessons
-your pay during training
-plane tickets to and from advanced training, and meals, accommodation, etc

Pretty closed minded if you think they pay 2.5 mil for just pilot training. I was in the military once. I know.

Okay, sure, you don't join the military for hours. But if your mentality is to "Oh, I'm gonna build my time with the military and hit the airlines" then....

Sorry, Hercs, Airbus, Twin Otter guys are the closest resemblance. Fighter pilots, rotary...going to the airlines, come on, think

Single pilot ops, nature of work, taking chances, are not what the airlines are looking for in "experience". You've got so many people out there with two crew turboprop experience, and why?! Oh yeah, to save money.

I'm not insulting the air force by the way. I have a lot of respect for what they do.

It's also a safety issue. Not oh, "I've flown an CF-18, I can handle an RJ." Totally different.

I think you have a skewed opinion of single pilot ops and fighter guys. Crew concept is something that is easily learned and has more to do with personality than background. Follow the SOP's and most of the crew concept stuff is covered. I think fighter guys are great in any kind of aircraft because they can think fast, work well under pressure and don't come all unglued if their airplane goes beyond 30 degrees of bank. But that's not showing a preference for fighter guys because civilian trained pilots can be just as good. Bush guys have their own strengths that they bring to the job as well. No type is better or worse than the other.

[linebacker35]

military is not king in the states, you can fly a CRJ with 250hrs with trans states and PSA
i did my civilian training there, you dont know what your talking about

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/resource ... 12222.html

Military is not king in the states huh? Dude go to some of the US forums, it is almost unanimous, if you can get a pilot slot in the Armed forces you take it! It is one of the most sought after jobs in the United States.
Not that I support going into the military just to set yourself up for a career in the civilian world after, BUT military pilots in the States get on with the Majors the easiest. In the states the majors preety much only hire Military and family/friends of employees now..

[linebacker35]

Oh, now that Linebacker found out that I used to be in the military he has to go somewhere else pointing that there's something else better like the US military.

So do you actually wanna serve a country or fly for an airline? You give me different vibes when you post something. You want military, you want to get on with the airlines the easiest, Canadian, American, be Chris Hadfield, Southwest, kings, etc.

Sounds like an ex or current air cadet.

I said nothig about the US military being better then the Canadian. Judging from the huge negative wave of responses to the Airforce, I was making a point about how I guess I was wrong about Canada and was simply explaining how it is differant in the States, you know how they actualy respect their members of the armed forces. It is just a whole differant mentality down there when it comes to military.

Ok to clear things up for you, I want to serve my country in the Airforce then become a test pilot. I would be perfectly happy serving in the armed forces for my entire working career.
And no im not a current/ex air cadet.

[Rockie]

Rockie - i agree with you, no type is better or worse. But why do I know someone who is an ex-fighter pilot with tons of hours get turned down by the airlines and was told "the nature of your previous job is not suited for this type of operation?"

I can't explain that because I've never run into that kind of attitude toward fighter pilots myself. It could be there was more behind it than what was simply said and the fighter thing was just the convenient excuse, or maybe whoever said that to your friend is actually that knuckleheaded. Who knows? I've been subjected to unjust bias before but it had nothing to do with my military background.

[Adam44]

And how the f*** do you post someone's reply with the white background?

Use the "Quote" button. It's on the top right corner of every post.

[mbav8r]

I had the same problem before, it's explained at the following link.
but the jist of it is; after you have copied to your post. right click and highlight what you want to quote then click the quote button at the top of the post area

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... highlight=

Also in order for it to work make sure "disable BBCode" is NOT checked at the bottom of the post area. I believe you can also make sure it isn't checked in your profile area.

[Zatopec]

...resetting the minimums to 1500hrs and an ATPL if no college diploma or 1000 hrs, college diplama and an IATRA doesn't piss me off.

What????

Are you saying that this is how it works now?

I was denied an interview at Jazz last summer because I didn't have my ATPL (lacking 50 hours or night flight) even though I exceed all other requirements.

I could rent a C-152 and fly it cross-country between the two same cities for 50 hours an apply for the rating. Would that make me a better pilot? I doubt it! But it would have allowed me the chance to get a shot at Jazz.

Now fresh college grads will get a shot at it. Good for them but total non-sens anyway.