corn-shoot wrote:...the gated community I live in generally doesn't allow those ethnic types in unless they are trimming the shrubs.
You must fly a metro in Manitoba?
College Program vs. Flight School
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Back to the original topic... 
Some of you may have misinterpreted my question. I'm not questioning whether 'tis better to get a non-aviation (or even aviation related) education and THEN pursuing Flight Training, but rather is it better, in this day and age, to get your licenses and ratings from a college program, or from an FBO flight school (borrowing an American term)?
Like so many others who have posted here, my feelings are biased by my experience as well. I may have a bit of a unique perspective, however, having taught at a college, while running a charter company, FTU next door. I'm just wondering if my thoughts seem way off base to others.
Here's my thinking: The biggest challenge this industry offers right now is getting the FIRST job. Once you're in, the bulk of your further education comes from the industry itself - on the job training (upgrades) if you will. I don't see a whole lot of operators hiring 200 hr CPL Multi IFR pilots directly into the right seat of a KA200, but I DO see the colleges continuing to sell their program based on that principle. I'm not questioning their ability to produce a high quality KA200 F.O., but I AM questioning the demand for that product. These days, unless your career is handed to you by your Daddy (more power to you if you can pull that one off
), we're all going to pay our dues in one form or another- Instructing, working a dock, F.O. on a bag run, etc.
Knowing what I do now, If I were doing it all over again, some of the questions I would be asking are: 1) What are the chances of getting a job where I train? 2) How quickly can I get out there and start paying my dues? 3) How much is it going to cost? 4) What do my instructors actually know about doing the job I'm being trained to do? 5) What IS the job I'm training to do, and how well prepared am I going to be to do that job?
The answer to question 1 is easy. There seems to be basically NO chance of getting hired right out of flight school by any College Program
. That is not to say that every student that graduates from an FBO will get a job, but at least they have a CHANCE. While the connections made at a College are great, so too are the conversations you have and the connections you make on a daily basis with the itinerant pilots who hang out at the flight school FBO.
Question 2 depends more on the student at an FBO than anything else. I once took a student from 0 hours to CPL Multi IFR in 1 year (to the day, in fact
). If you're motivated (as most College Prospects are), and have the funds in place (ANY accredited school can get you student loan $$), there is no reason why it should take longer than 2 years to complete your licenses and ratings, and get out there. This puts you in the market at least a year ahead of the College Graduate. Remember also, as every Chief Pilot knows, Springtime is the season to have all your ducks in a row.
Question 3 is harder to answer. From my calculations, going the FBO route will leave you with between $10,000 and $20,000 hanging in your jeans. That's quite a bit of scratch for those first few years of paying your dues, or it goes quite a ways towards an independent degree or diploma. Is the extra amount spent in a College Program justified by the aid that education, or level of training, offers you either immediately, or eventually, in this industry. My answer is no, not today. Back when Commuter Airlines were hiring off the street (I've been told it actually did happen), the answer may have been different, but the times have changed now, and so has the entry level position.
Question 4 seems to be the really difficult sell for the FBOs, and in a way relates closely to question 3. The comment about QUALITY of instructors is a good one here. There is no question that on the whole the caliber of instructor at the college is higher (many College Programs use Class 4 instructors, so that alone cannot be an indicator) - typically part 705 experienced. These professionals command a higher wage, therefore the cost of the College Program goes up. Is their level of knowledge and experience something that is going to make a difference when it comes to getting that first job? Is it going to make a difference 10 years down the line? I don't know. What I do know, is that an FBO school with a working charter side employs instructors who are also experienced in the working side of the industry. By no means am I trying to suggest that their level of knowledge is as deep as the College Professor, but they ARE doing, today, the job that a prospective CPL is training for. Can they teach a fresh CPL how to do their first flying job as well and as safely as a College Professor can? I think so. My point here, I guess, is that there are good instructors (and bad ones) everywhere if you look for them.
Question 5 has been answered throughout my ramblings here. The typical first flying job will be a 182 or 206 (maybe floats) flying day VFR charter, or as F/O on an Islander or Ho flying cargo (maybe pax), or ... Maybe part of the problem is that so few prospects want to even consider that these are likely to be their first jobs, that they can't see the reality of what they're getting trained to do. They see themselves as Airline Captains as soon as they graduate, so they pursue that type of training.
Hopefully I haven't pissed anyone off here...That wasn't my intention! For those who can afford the time and the $$, and who maybe need a little more discipline, there is no question that the College route is the way to go. Simply trying to find out if there are others out there who are thinking the same way in terms of preparing yourself effectively and economically for the realities of this industry today.
Always open for discussion.
Some of you may have misinterpreted my question. I'm not questioning whether 'tis better to get a non-aviation (or even aviation related) education and THEN pursuing Flight Training, but rather is it better, in this day and age, to get your licenses and ratings from a college program, or from an FBO flight school (borrowing an American term)?
Like so many others who have posted here, my feelings are biased by my experience as well. I may have a bit of a unique perspective, however, having taught at a college, while running a charter company, FTU next door. I'm just wondering if my thoughts seem way off base to others.
Here's my thinking: The biggest challenge this industry offers right now is getting the FIRST job. Once you're in, the bulk of your further education comes from the industry itself - on the job training (upgrades) if you will. I don't see a whole lot of operators hiring 200 hr CPL Multi IFR pilots directly into the right seat of a KA200, but I DO see the colleges continuing to sell their program based on that principle. I'm not questioning their ability to produce a high quality KA200 F.O., but I AM questioning the demand for that product. These days, unless your career is handed to you by your Daddy (more power to you if you can pull that one off
), we're all going to pay our dues in one form or another- Instructing, working a dock, F.O. on a bag run, etc. Knowing what I do now, If I were doing it all over again, some of the questions I would be asking are: 1) What are the chances of getting a job where I train? 2) How quickly can I get out there and start paying my dues? 3) How much is it going to cost? 4) What do my instructors actually know about doing the job I'm being trained to do? 5) What IS the job I'm training to do, and how well prepared am I going to be to do that job?
The answer to question 1 is easy. There seems to be basically NO chance of getting hired right out of flight school by any College Program
. That is not to say that every student that graduates from an FBO will get a job, but at least they have a CHANCE. While the connections made at a College are great, so too are the conversations you have and the connections you make on a daily basis with the itinerant pilots who hang out at the flight school FBO.Question 2 depends more on the student at an FBO than anything else. I once took a student from 0 hours to CPL Multi IFR in 1 year (to the day, in fact
). If you're motivated (as most College Prospects are), and have the funds in place (ANY accredited school can get you student loan $$), there is no reason why it should take longer than 2 years to complete your licenses and ratings, and get out there. This puts you in the market at least a year ahead of the College Graduate. Remember also, as every Chief Pilot knows, Springtime is the season to have all your ducks in a row.Question 3 is harder to answer. From my calculations, going the FBO route will leave you with between $10,000 and $20,000 hanging in your jeans. That's quite a bit of scratch for those first few years of paying your dues, or it goes quite a ways towards an independent degree or diploma. Is the extra amount spent in a College Program justified by the aid that education, or level of training, offers you either immediately, or eventually, in this industry. My answer is no, not today. Back when Commuter Airlines were hiring off the street (I've been told it actually did happen), the answer may have been different, but the times have changed now, and so has the entry level position.
Question 4 seems to be the really difficult sell for the FBOs, and in a way relates closely to question 3. The comment about QUALITY of instructors is a good one here. There is no question that on the whole the caliber of instructor at the college is higher (many College Programs use Class 4 instructors, so that alone cannot be an indicator) - typically part 705 experienced. These professionals command a higher wage, therefore the cost of the College Program goes up. Is their level of knowledge and experience something that is going to make a difference when it comes to getting that first job? Is it going to make a difference 10 years down the line? I don't know. What I do know, is that an FBO school with a working charter side employs instructors who are also experienced in the working side of the industry. By no means am I trying to suggest that their level of knowledge is as deep as the College Professor, but they ARE doing, today, the job that a prospective CPL is training for. Can they teach a fresh CPL how to do their first flying job as well and as safely as a College Professor can? I think so. My point here, I guess, is that there are good instructors (and bad ones) everywhere if you look for them.
Question 5 has been answered throughout my ramblings here. The typical first flying job will be a 182 or 206 (maybe floats) flying day VFR charter, or as F/O on an Islander or Ho flying cargo (maybe pax), or ... Maybe part of the problem is that so few prospects want to even consider that these are likely to be their first jobs, that they can't see the reality of what they're getting trained to do. They see themselves as Airline Captains as soon as they graduate, so they pursue that type of training.
Hopefully I haven't pissed anyone off here...That wasn't my intention! For those who can afford the time and the $$, and who maybe need a little more discipline, there is no question that the College route is the way to go. Simply trying to find out if there are others out there who are thinking the same way in terms of preparing yourself effectively and economically for the realities of this industry today.
Always open for discussion.
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
I'd have to admit that going through a college program will give you a somewhat higher degree of training due to generally better equipment, instructors and courses. It also shows you can go the distance and in the case of alot of colleges put up with alot of B.S. preparing you for the politics you'll have to endure at some companies.
I think overall though it's going to boil down to your when you get your first job. The college programs are usually at least a year longer than if you did it privately, and I think that year really gives you a head start in this industry if you compare it to your companions who take the college route. There aren't many companies that take the diploma that seriously, since they realize the most important things you are going to learn, are things you can only learn first-hand from on the job training. I am little bias though since I did my training privately and realize the lack of a diploma might come back and bite me in the ass furter down the road, but in terms of getting that first job before college is out and the money you save it's worth it.
I think overall though it's going to boil down to your when you get your first job. The college programs are usually at least a year longer than if you did it privately, and I think that year really gives you a head start in this industry if you compare it to your companions who take the college route. There aren't many companies that take the diploma that seriously, since they realize the most important things you are going to learn, are things you can only learn first-hand from on the job training. I am little bias though since I did my training privately and realize the lack of a diploma might come back and bite me in the ass furter down the road, but in terms of getting that first job before college is out and the money you save it's worth it.
"Hey, maybe I do have the right........what's that stuff called?"
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corn-shoot
- Rank 7
- Posts: 527
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:06 am
- Location: Entrails, SK
-
corn-shoot
- Rank 7
- Posts: 527
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:06 am
- Location: Entrails, SK
