Westjet flight's sharp drop injures 9

[2milefinal]

BugSmasher

[Cool Rythms!]

I too, hope those who were injured will recover quickly. It is unfortunate, but as some of you said, this may be a little bit of a wake up call to some passengers regarding the use of seat belts.

I've been on flights as well, where the seat belt sign has been turned on, and all of a sudden, Jack has to get something out of his carry on bag in the overhead compartment, or Jane suddenly has to go real bad, or Peter has to get up and go get his kid running down the isle.

We don't have control over our passengers, we can only do our job and hope that people actually listen to the safety briefings given by the F/A's, or the announcements made by the pilots.

I am curious as to what the flight conditions were at the time of this incident.

[zzjayca]

AIM Met 3.7
Turbulence Reporting Criteria Table
INTENSITY AIRCRAFT REACTION REACTION INSIDE AIRCRAFT

LIGHT
Turbulence that momentarily causes slight, erratic changes in
altitude and/or attitude (pitch, roll, yaw).
Report as “Light Turbulence”.
OR
Turbulence that causes slight, rapid and somewhat rhythmic
bumpiness without appreciable changes in altitude or attitude.
Report as “Light Chop”.
Occupants may feel a slight strain
against seat belts or shoulder straps.
Unsecured objects may be displaced
slightly. Food service may be
conducted and little or no difficulty is
encountered in walking.

MODERATE
Turbulence that is similar to Light Turbulence but of greater
intensity. Changes in altitude and/or attitude occur but the aircraft
remains in positive control at all times. It usually causes variations
in indicated airspeed. Report as “Moderate Turbulence”.
OR
Turbulence that is similar to Light Chop but of greater intensity. It
causes rapid bumps or jolts without appreciable changes in aircraft
altitude or attitude. Report as “Moderate Chop”.
Occupants feel definite strains
against seat belts or shoulder straps.
Unsecured objects are dislodged.
Food service and walking are difficult.

SEVERE
Turbulence that causes large, abrupt changes in altitude and/or
attitude. It usually causes large variations in indicated airspeed.
Aircraft may be momentarily out of control.
Report as “Severe Turbulence”.
Occupants are forced violently
against seat belts or shoulder straps.
Unsecured objects are tossed about.
Food service and walking impossible.

If as the media reported, the aircraft dropped several hundred meters, then what was encountered was by definition severe turbulence.

If it was severe turbulence, ATC must be notified since we may have to suspend RVSM and increase vertical separation to 2000ft.

It sounds like another case of the media overstating and embellishing the facts to make the story more compelling.

[Dick]

This is so wrong. Word from the "inside" is that some of the passengers, upon arriving in YHZ were taken from the plane on stretchers, via the catering truck lift. Add that to the fact that you just hit severe turbulence at cruising altitude/speed and could have very well overstressed the airframe.

These pilots made a terrible mistake in judgment when they decided to continue for 2 more hours to YHZ. They should be suspended, pending an investigation into their actions, and accept the consequences that are handed down to them.

I think this goes back to WJ having too many "kids" in the cockpit. You are not mature enough to make life-and-death decisions, for 120 people, at 23 years old. These guys are young, cocky, and too concerned with on-time-performance.

This is about safety, people. Get your heads on straight!

The plane should have made an emergency landing in YSB, or YYB, or YYZ, or YOW, or where ever, but the decision to continue to destination is just wrong. It was wrong, it was stupid, and it was dangerous. If they keep making bad decisions like this, and like LAX, one day it's going to backfire on them.

"Darn near killed 100 people today, but our on-time-performance rocks"

My 2 cents.
BS

Your quote and comment only displays your ignorance.

[BugSmasher]

Ok, maybe the "23 year old" comment wasn't warranted, BUT.... you have 9 injured passengers, some of them seriously. People bleeding in your plane. What if one of them goes into shock or cardiac arrest? What if one of them is HIV positive? What if one of them is a "bleeder"? There's a number of bad scenarios that could have developed out of this.

All I'm saying is, if for no other reason, this plane should have been diverted to a closer airport, for medical reasons, and not continue for 2 hours to YHZ. IF one of the passengers had died from their injuries 90 minutes after the incident, and 30 minute before arriving in YHZ, you would all be agreeing with me.

Safety, safety, safety.
Nothing else matters.

BS

[Empress Chief]

Comments removed due to association with "troll".

You're on your own buddy.

[Dick]

If either of you were there or have inside information, please let us know. Otherwise, as a pilot, I will assume that as professionals, the pilots of the flight in question made the right decision with the information they were given

[BugSmasher]

Well I get "a little wound up" when people are hurt. I can't believe out of 31 posts, only 2 of us are concerned about the injured passengers. If 3 of them were bad enough to be taken to hospital, them maybe they should have been in a hospital a little sooner.

I guess I was wrong thinking that safety is the first priority in aviation. Sorry if I offended anybody.

BS

[Dick]

Definately not offended, just wanted to make sure everyone was sure of the facts, not just speculation and stories. Remember, believe half of what you read, and even less of what you hear. Unless you see it with your own eyes, it didn't really happen, and if you did, it's only a possibility.

[Airbrake]

Bug Smasher.

You must understand the support system that WJ uses before you criticize decisions made.
WJ uses the most knowledgeable medical professionals for all medical situations. It is called MedLink. Medlink is based in Pheonix and consists of professional Aviation doctors. These doctors take all responsibility from WJ in making decisions. ie. If a doctor on board decides that a medical condition does not warrant a diversion and then MedLink decides it is in the best interest for all involved, it is done no questions asked.

So I am going to guess that the decision was not based on OTP at all. In fact, I have never heard of a medical decision being made with OTP even being considered.

So do not jump to any conclusions until all the facts have been brought out into the public. The media will not get 100% of the info so therefore they try to did up some good juice from people who must take assumptions. And we all know that to assume only makes an Ass out of U and Me.

Brakesout

[Dick]

Exactly, thanks.

[BugSmasher]

Ok,fine. I'm all calmed down now. I understand that there are "systems" in place with all the airlines, for situations like this. I also realize that the crews are trained to handles these situations. Thank you for responding with sensibility and intelligence. It was so much better than being called "ignorant" for speaking up about safety.

My concern was with the fact that if something (anything) had gone wrong as an after-effect of this incident, the results could have been catastrophic.

I'll just go away now. Time to refill my blood-pressure medication anyway.

BS

[Azure]

BugSmasher

Your quite new to this forum? Avcanada is great reading, but seriously! Sarcasm is quite accepted here, almost expected. Preferred really.

For a little less and when you try to have a dialogue, try PPrune, Airline Employee Forum maybe even Airlines dot net. BUT remember! You cannot argue using newspaper articles in any of these forums. I am not even a pilot, yet I gag at some of the stories that are printed! I guess I know too much.

I can assure you that WJ doesn't have a bunch of 23 year old's burning up the skies.....17,000 hours and ready to retire is my guy. Tell you the truth? WJ guys probably have less hair than most AC guys. Or is it the cap that hides the effects? Hummm...

[Ryan Coke2]

"James Redeker
Chief Flight Dispatcher
Canadian North Inc."

I respect your decision to publish your name and position on an internet forum .

I am amazed that you choose to do it while armchair quarterbacking an event at another airline, and giving credibility to a ridiculous post by a troll. I would question your judgment.

Based on a level of turbulence neither of you know about, injuries you are speculating on, and procedures you are ignoring, you feel it appropriate to express judgement on an event you know nothing about.

And then use your name and title to try to give it legitimacy?

I'll be honest---from what I know, I would likely have done the exact same thing this crew did.

All that said, one thing I do agree with--I certainly am glad that all involved appear to be fine. Also I would like to express appreciation to the 2 nurses for their assistance.

[TripleBFlyboy]

Why even remove your belt?.... most people don't even leave thier seats the whole flight.... it isn't that uncomfortable..... in fact it's less intrusive than a car's....


It's almost as bad as when the flight attendant is going through the px brief and people have thier heads down in a magazine, or ears full listening to thier iPod. It only takes 2 minutes to listen. I'd rather listen than be the person holding everyone up in an actual emergency because I didn't pay attention.

[KAG]

Not bad posts on here, with the exception of bugsmashers comments about 23 year olds in the flight deck. Sorry, thats Jazz (soon anyway).

Seriously, when it comes to any medical issue, the FA's are on the horn to medlink, they make the call whether to continue or not. Also WJ MTCE will also be able to tell from from the aircraft itself if it has exceeded any limits structurally, that includes G forces while plane is airborne. So the decision to continue was made by a few groups that worked together and informed the captain what and where to go. If the CPT truely feels that this plane MUST land now, then it does.

This is a great case to show why you should always wear your seatbelt on an aircraft.

[invertedattitude]

I was under the impression that it was general practice for an airline to undergo certain checks if it encounters severe turbulence, is this correct?

Severe turbulence is far from common, and when it happens everyone knows about it for hours afterwards.

I've seen a 744 get it's A/P shaken out by severe turbulence, luckily just a box hauler.

[wrc]

BugSmasher, your post is laddled with ignorance. Re-read and think a bit.

19,000 hr "23 year old"

[DA900]

Based on a level of turbulence neither of you know about, injuries you are speculating on, and procedures you are ignoring, you feel it appropriate to express judgement on an event you know nothing about.



I'll be honest---from what I know, I would likely have done the exact same thing this crew did.

Yet you just did the same thing that you were chastening them for.

[gulfan]

Based on a level of turbulence neither of you know about, injuries you are speculating on, and procedures you are ignoring, you feel it appropriate to express judgement on an event you know nothing about.



I'll be honest---from what I know, I would likely have done the exact same thing this crew did.

Yet you just did the same thing that you were chastening them for.

Do you know anything about Ryan Coke? Maybe it's time for you to put away your 'Jump to conclusions' mat.

[DA900]

kevin.snaden do you know anything about me?


Your "'Jump to conclusions' mat" makes about as much sense as a solar power night light.

[Ryan Coke2]

DA900,

I can appreciate the irony of my last line--it is my interpretation, you are correct.

The main point of my post was to highlight the error of the ridiculous armchair quarterbacking based on precious little info, especially when broad sweeping criticisms are being levelled against the crew and the company.

I then was trying to provide a counterpoint by suggesting based on what I know, there is nothing they did wrong. But my main point is that we shouldn't be throwing around unfair judgements based on incomplete and erroneous information. Is that more clear?

I suppose that I have more tolerance of someone that says 'sounds like they probably followed a reasonable course of action', than someone who says 'they were stupid, irresponsible, and wrong', both based on only partial information.

[Airbrake]

Nice to see that the crew acted exactly as they are trained and expected to . Professionally. The sad part is that sometimes that "eyewitness" accounts are taken as factual when they are only a small picture from one point of view of a very large and complicated fresco.


Proper procedures followed on turbulent flight

Canadian Press

September 10, 2007 at 12:48 PM EDT

HALIFAX — It appears that the flight crew working aboard a turbulent WestJet flight followed proper procedures, Transport Canada said Monday.

Spokeswoman Lucie Vignola said the federal department had almost finished its review of last Thursday's Calgary-to-Halifax flight, which ended with several passengers being sent to hospital last week.

The airliner hit severe turbulence with little warning, tossing around passengers who were standing up or not buckled in. Nine people were injured and three were sent to hospital, treated and later released.

“All the indications that we have are that the crew reacted to and dealt with the turbulence in a professional manner, and they did follow proper procedures,” Ms. Vignola said in an interview.

The Transportation Safety Board is also conducting its own routine review.

Passengers on the flight have praised the crew for reacting quickly and keeping everyone calm.

The crew asked whether anyone on board had medical training, and two nurses identified themselves and began treating the injured. WestJet has given the nurses, who work in Victoria, travel vouchers to thank them for their help.

Meanwhile, the Transportation Safety Board expects to finish its review this week.

The independent agency has suggested that an investigation would be unlikely unless there were problems with procedure or any major safety issues were found.

WestJet has said there was no warning of turbulence in the area.

While passengers have said it felt like the plane was falling several hundred metres, the airline has said data from the aircraft indicate that the altitude drop was about 20 metres.

[Go Guns]

300M to 20M!? so much for the thousand foot drop.

[TripleBFlyboy]

these forumsand the papers are good for that..... reminds me of the California Raison's song "I Heard It Through the Grape Vine..."