Ottawa halts $1.6B upgrade of maritime patrol aircraft

[Dust Devil]

I was under the impression the dash 8 was ment to be replacing the twin otters in the north for the military? I don't really know much about this stuff but I'm sure thats what a flight engineer told me at the moosejaw airshow this year.

[WJflyer]

I was under the impression the dash 8 was ment to be replacing the twin otters in the north for the military? I don't really know much about this stuff but I'm sure thats what a flight engineer told me at the moosejaw airshow this year.

It was planned that the FWSAR bird would replace the Twin Otter, but since Viking Air has restarted production of the Twin Otter, things are getting a bit more murky.

[Dust Devil]

anyone know how quick viking is able to spit out new twin otters? If the Military sticks with them could that cause a short supply for the civilian market?

[WJflyer]

We only operate 4 Twin Otters now out of the 8 we purchased, so we won't make much of a dent in production if we chose to replacement with new Twin Otters.

[KISS_MY_TCAS]

Your 'vote' sucks for canadian requirements. Here are some specs.

Ceiling 3,750 m (12,303 ft) -
Cruise Speed 155 mps (Mach 0.47) -
Endurance 8 hours -
Height 7.6 m -
Length 22.7 m -
Max Range 750 km (405 nm) -
Max Weight 18,600 kg (41,005 **) -
Min Weight 11,250 kg (24,802 **) -
Number of Engines 2 -
Payload 5,450 kg (12,015 **) -
Power 4,800 shp -
Wingspan 24.5 m -


Far to light weight of a patrol aircraft to cover Canadas vast coastline and maritime area of responsibility. This machine does not come close to meeting the capabilities of the P-3 (CP-140). Also, from what I saw no ASW. It does look like a good plane for a small country with limited range requirments.

To correct you, the service ceiling is 25000', 12303' is one engine out. Range is just shy of 2000nm at 10000', 1500nm at 2000', all numbers from the manufacturer.

There is also a larger version based on the ATR72-500 called the ATR 72 ASW, and as the name states it has anti-sub warfare. Here is some more info:

The ATR 72 ASW is a derivative of proven ATR 72-500 commercial aircraft integrating the same maritime patrol capabilities of ATR 42 MP in addition to Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) and Anti-Surface Warfare (ASuW) capabilities. The ATR 72 ASW can execute patrols with a mission radius of 600 nautical miles (1,100+ km) for more than 2 hours with a total mission endurance of roughly 9 hours. With a 200 nautical miles (360+ km) mission radius the airplane can remain on station for 7 hours.

A rotary sonobuoys launcher and a Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) system for detecting diving submarines; chaff and flare for passive defense; two depth charges , A244S (4) or MU90 (2) torpedoes and torpedo launch mechanism to engage hostile submarines; and two AM39 Exocet anti-ship missiles to engage surface ships is the equipment loaded onboard the ATR 72 ASW including the equipment provided to the ATR 42 MP. Optionally, it can be outfitted with a Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR).

Info from http://www.deagel.com/Maritime-Patrol-A ... 90004.aspx.

[Spokes]

I'm sure this is all true, but the range is only half of the P3. The longest trip I did was in the 4000nm range, Barbers point to Norfolk. Also Comox to Kinloss on ocaision.

600nm with 2 hour on station time? pretty light weight for a country with as much area as Canada to cover. The CP-140 could remain on station an easy 7-8 hours at this range. I seem to remember staying on sta 3 hours at 1200nm range.

This aircraft for example, would not be able to carry out the drift net patrols now done annually by the CP-140.

I do agree with you regarding the advantages of the turboprop over the jet. But I also know that the people who determine the suitablility of various a/c to meet the national requirements are not idiots. As far as maritime patrol aircraft goes, I know some of them personally. If they say the 737 jet will work, I believe them.

[WJflyer]

Your 'vote' sucks for canadian requirements. Here are some specs.

Ceiling 3,750 m (12,303 ft) -
Cruise Speed 155 mps (Mach 0.47) -
Endurance 8 hours -
Height 7.6 m -
Length 22.7 m -
Max Range 750 km (405 nm) -
Max Weight 18,600 kg (41,005 **) -
Min Weight 11,250 kg (24,802 **) -
Number of Engines 2 -
Payload 5,450 kg (12,015 **) -
Power 4,800 shp -
Wingspan 24.5 m -


Far to light weight of a patrol aircraft to cover Canadas vast coastline and maritime area of responsibility. This machine does not come close to meeting the capabilities of the P-3 (CP-140). Also, from what I saw no ASW. It does look like a good plane for a small country with limited range requirments.

To correct you, the service ceiling is 25000', 12303' is one engine out. Range is just shy of 2000nm at 10000', 1500nm at 2000', all numbers from the manufacturer.

There is also a larger version based on the ATR72-500 called the ATR 72 ASW, and as the name states it has anti-sub warfare. Here is some more info:

The ATR 72 ASW is a derivative of proven ATR 72-500 commercial aircraft integrating the same maritime patrol capabilities of ATR 42 MP in addition to Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) and Anti-Surface Warfare (ASuW) capabilities. The ATR 72 ASW can execute patrols with a mission radius of 600 nautical miles (1,100+ km) for more than 2 hours with a total mission endurance of roughly 9 hours. With a 200 nautical miles (360+ km) mission radius the airplane can remain on station for 7 hours.

A rotary sonobuoys launcher and a Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) system for detecting diving submarines; chaff and flare for passive defense; two depth charges , A244S (4) or MU90 (2) torpedoes and torpedo launch mechanism to engage hostile submarines; and two AM39 Exocet anti-ship missiles to engage surface ships is the equipment loaded onboard the ATR 72 ASW including the equipment provided to the ATR 42 MP. Optionally, it can be outfitted with a Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR).

Info from http://www.deagel.com/Maritime-Patrol-A ... 90004.aspx.

1. We don't use Exocet, nor do we use the A244S or MU90 torpedoes...
2. Range is the real killer. We a need long range aircraft. A shorter range aircraft doesn't do us any good on the West and East coasts where we use the Aurora's range to the maximum as it is.

The Boeing P-8 MMA would be the logical successor to our CP-140 Aurora's, but price is a big sticking point. P-8 is EXPENSIVE. Whenever or not the government has enough will to go ahead with a replacement remains to be seen.

The whole Aurora upgrade project has been a fiasco from the start. If I were in charge of procurement and the budget from the start, I would have upgraded the entire Aurora and Arcturus fleet 10 years ago, and signed onto the Boeing P-8 MMA right from the start when the USN visited us asking if we wanted to sign on during development. No stinking Incremental Modernization over a period of 9+ years. Upgrade the entire fleet in one go over a period of 4 years to the latest USN P-3C Update III AIP block. At the same time, perform a service life extension so we can continue to fly the Aurora past 2010 so when the first P-8 arrives, we can start retiring the Aurora's.

[Spokes]

Absolutely correct! Range is the biggest thing. Canada is a huge country. Lots of real estate to cover. Some of these smaller short range a/c may cut it for these tiny european users. Not much use here though.

Hey WJFlyer, we must know each other.

[BigB]

Boeing is claiming, according to their website, the P-8 will have 1200 NM range with 4 hr on-sta time. From Greenwood, that would take you out to 35Wish and back....nice!

[WJflyer]

Absolutely correct! Range is the biggest thing. Canada is a huge country. Lots of real estate to cover. Some of these smaller short range a/c may cut it for these tiny european users. Not much use here though.

Hey WJFlyer, we must know each other.

No, I just have a lot of common sense.

Right now, we are at a cross roads. The decision to press on depends on the government. Remember, the problems we are facing are unique to us. The CP-140 Aurora is unlike any other P-3 in the world, thus the 18 we have today have constituted an orphan fleet on delivery. The airframe itself is just another normal P-3C but most of its tactical system come from the S-3A Viking. We got the Aurora's in 1980, and by then, we should have started thinking about upgrades, as the USN had moved onto the S-3B Viking by the mid 1980's. Had we purchased standard P-3C Orion's, we could have taken advantage of already developed modernization packages that went into USN aircraft.

There is no painless way ahead right now. Decisions made in the past have created problems today. We canned ASLEP. If we were to do ASLEP, we won't be first in line. Norway has already contracted Lockheed to build new wings and tails for their P-3C's and from what i have read, the USN is considering doing the same to allow the P-3C to live until the MMA arrives. If we signed on today, the Aurora's will continue to age, and they would be grounded until the new wings and tails arrives.

The main questions that will have to be asked are as follows:
1. If we press on with AIMP, how long will we be able to use the Aurora's for? How long will it take to train everyone on those new systems? Is it worth it without ASLEP?

2. Can we continue with the current systems (modernize to Block 2 of the AIMP only) until the P-8 MMA or whatever replacement comes along?

3. Can we afford a proper Aurora replacement? Is Canadian sovereignty important enough in the eyes of the government to spend billions of dollars on a proper replacement?

These are the tough questions to have to be asked today. Since the government is stating that November 20th is the decision date, I await to see what decision will be made.

[WJflyer]

CASR has done a fairly decent job (for once) giving a small background on each of the major options to directly replace the Auroras:
Boeing P-8 MMA:
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-cp140-replacement-p8.htm

Kawasaki P-X:
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-cp140-replacement-px.htm

EADS MPA320 Proposal:
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-cp140-replacement-a320.htm

[conehead]

I dunno why Embraer doesn't get into this game. Man, you put that equipment into a E-190, and the range would be awesome...

[CD]

I dunno why Embraer doesn't get into this game. Man, you put that equipment into a E-190, and the range would be awesome...

They have, although it's based on the 145:

P-99 - Maritime Patrol and Anti-Submarine Warfare aircraft

[WJflyer]

Update: It appears the plan is now to replace the Aurora's.
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/new ... 44c7407050

Military wants to replace spy plane sooner, not later
Canadian Forces looks to spend billions on new surveillance plane

David Pugliese
The Ottawa Citizen

Monday, October 01, 2007

The Canadian military is laying the groundwork for a multi-billion-dollar purchase of a new surveillance plane to patrol the country's coastlines and replace the existing Aurora aircraft fleet, which is facing structural problems.

Among the options that could be considered is a U.S. military aircraft based on the Boeing 737 passenger jet, but outfitted with sensors, as well as a Bombardier Global Express jet equipped with surveillance gear.

The air force had intended to keep its CP-140 Auroras flying until 2025, but the service is now rethinking those plans and wants a new multi-mission aircraft ready in nine years when it retires its aging surveillance planes.

The Auroras were purchased in the early 1980s to conduct anti-submarine patrols and maritime surveillance. The 18 planes operate at bases on the East and West coasts and are considered vital for watching over the country's maritime approaches.

The air force's current strategy is to continue using the Aurora until a new aircraft is purchased. Military officials say the service is in the early stages of the process and needs to assemble a team to look at the basic requirements for a new plane.

"It's all very early in the conceptual stage right now," said air force spokesman Capt. Jim Hutcheson. "They haven't got to looking at options yet."

Military planners, however, have asked for information regarding the U.S. navy's Poseidon maritime aircraft. The plane, a 737 converted into a surveillance aircraft, is the U.S. navy's successor to its version of the Aurora.

Canadian officials have also asked for details on the ASTOR surveillance aircraft project under way for Britain's military. That aircraft uses the smaller Bombardier Global Express jet and is designed for providing surveillance of ground targets.

"We provided the information (to the Canadian Forces) that we were allowed to release," said Denny Roberts, vice-president of Raytheon Canada. Raytheon provides many of the sensors onboard the Poseidon and is developing the ASTOR project for the British.

"They appear to be serious about this," Mr. Roberts, a retired air force colonel, said of the Canadian plan to replace the Auroras.

The initial search for a replacement plane comes as the military is conducting inspections on the 26-year-old Auroras to detect and repair possible structural damage, particularly in the wing area. The inspections were started as a precautionary measure because of warnings from the U.S. navy, which operates a similar fleet.

The Canadian Forces has already spent $900 million in upgrading navigation and radio equipment for its Auroras, but is reconsidering whether it should spend any more money to install new sensors and computers. It will decide on or before Nov. 20 on how to proceed on the upgrade program.

An earlier plan to spend $500 million for new structural components for the Auroras is also in question. That project would have dealt with the aircraft's wings, which several studies show have been "accumulating fatigue damage" at a rate faster than anticipated.

"The current thinking is that it would make more sense to proceed with an Aurora replacement in the 2016 timeframe and that's why we are thinking about not proceeding with the full range of upgrades, both mechanical and avionics and equipment," Capt. Hutcheson said.

No price tag has been set for a new aircraft, but defence industry officials say such a program is expected to cost several billion dollars.
© The Ottawa Citizen 2007

[Cod Father]

What about pimping out the mothballed 601 Challenger jets from the former 434 Sqn?

[WJflyer]

What about pimping out the mothballed 601 Challenger jets from the former 434 Sqn?

Insufficient range, and I don't believe they are still with us... Public Works put them up for sale and I believe they are sold...

[SAR_YQQ]

What about pimping out the mothballed 601 Challenger jets from the former 434 Sqn?

I believe one of them is on a stick at 1 CAD.

[Driving Rain]

“full of Eastern Promise”
The P-X is an ambitious Japanese replacement for JMSDF P-3C Orions around 2010. This “Patrol Experimental” was, in part, the Japanese response to the anticipated high cost of the US MMA project. Of necessity, KHI (Kawasaki Heavy Industries) took a different approach to Boeing . Whereas the P-8A is based on an existing airliner (B737), from the outset the P-X was designed for maritime patrol. [1] The prototype P-X rolled out on in July 2007, this aircraft making its first flight ( left ) on 28 September 2007.

[shitdisturber]

What about pimping out the mothballed 601 Challenger jets from the former 434 Sqn?

I believe one of them is on a stick at 1 CAD.

That's the 600 test bed that the government bought from Bombardier after they were done abusing it and turned over to AETE who fairly quickly discovered it was useless.

[WJflyer]

“full of Eastern Promise”
The P-X is an ambitious Japanese replacement for JMSDF P-3C Orions around 2010. This “Patrol Experimental” was, in part, the Japanese response to the anticipated high cost of the US MMA project. Of necessity, KHI (Kawasaki Heavy Industries) took a different approach to Boeing . Whereas the P-8A is based on an existing airliner (B737), from the outset the P-X was designed for maritime patrol. [1] The prototype P-X rolled out on in July 2007, this aircraft making its first flight ( left ) on 28 September 2007.

Japs can't export their military hardware unless they change their constitution... so in reality, the company with the only real shot at a proper Aurora replacement is Boeing with the P-8 MMA.

[Driving Rain]

It is rumoured that amendments to the constitution have been considered. Unless and until such constitutional changes are passed [5] by the Diet, the P-X program will remain limited to the JMSDF

Lately the Diet has been willing to become more flexable and is considering an amendment to address these export shortcomings.

[WJflyer]

It is rumoured that amendments to the constitution have been considered. Unless and until such constitutional changes are passed [5] by the Diet, the P-X program will remain limited to the JMSDF

Lately the Diet has been willing to become more flexable and is considering an amendment to address these export shortcomings.

If that happens, a open competition can be done, and we can then pick the winner...

[CD]

Patrol plane decision may be costly to N.S.

Murray Brewster, The Canadian Press
November 26, 2007

OTTAWA - National Defence has postponed a decision on whether to continue with major upgrades to its fleet of Maritime patrol planes until after Parliament rises for the Christmas holidays.

Critics say the deferral is an unabashed attempt to bury what is expected to be a bad news announcement for Defence Minister Peter MacKay.

A substantial portion of the work has been carried out in his home province of Nova Scotia.

Defence sources say the long-anticipated announcement was put off earlier this week until Dec. 18, almost one month past the government's self-imposed deadline and at least four days past Parliament's scheduled Christmas break.

Despite several telephone calls over three days, the department's material branch did not answer requests for comment - or explain the rationale for the extension involving the CP-140s.

The air force had originally intended to keep its 18 CP-140 Auroras in the air until 2025, but a multi-year upgrade contract was put on hold in September and there have been suggestions the military has been shopping for a replacement aircraft.

The life extension has cost taxpayers $900 million thus far and is about to complete its second phase.

To date, the Auroras have received an upgraded navigation system, global positioning systems and better radar, among other things.

The next two phases, which are on hold, would have given the aircraft better data management system, sensors - such as imaging radar - and finally protection against air-to-surface missiles.

Companies, including IMP Aerospace in Halifax, were preparing for the next round when the project was put in limbo.

Defence sources said officials from IMP met with MacKay earlier this month.

The minister offered no hint about what the final decision might be "other than to suggest they might not be happy with the result," said an official who asked not to be named.

A spokesman for the minister denied MacKay is leaning one way or another and that politics played any part in the decision to postpone.

"The minister has not made a decision on this file and is expected to within coming weeks," Dan Dugas said in an email note.

"The reason for the postponement is that the minister wants all the information possible on this important file before he does decide the way forward and he's waiting for more advice."

But Opposition members said they don't buy it and the stonewalling - particularly by department officials - can only mean the Conservatives want the issue dropped into the pre-Christmas news void to protect MacKay.

There has already been controversy surrounding defence contracts in Nova Scotia's business community.

Irving-owned Halifax Shipyards is suing the federal government over the awarding of a long-term submarine maintenance contract.

"So, it means during Christmas, ho, ho, ho, and we pull-the-plug," said Liberal defence critic Denis Coderre.

"The only reason they would want to do this during the holidays is because they want to cover it up so nobody knows what happened."

NDP defence critic Dawn Black said she's troubled by the extension and that politics appear to be at play.

"This is important for surveillance and for the safety of Canadians on both coasts and we deserve to know what is going on."

The Auroras are used for submarine hunting and coastal surveillance. In 2005, IMP and L-3 Electronic Systems were awarded two contracts totalling $961.1 million.

IMP, which has maintained the airframe of the Auroras since they were introduced in the 1980s, has been carrying out engineering and structural upgrades.

Industry officials told MacKay it would be cheaper to continue with the upgrade and keep the planes flying until 2025, rather than spend several billion dollars to purchase new ones.

But the air force has countered that the slow pace of the refurbishment means it could have new aircraft by the time the old ones are back in service, said a defence insider.

Bailing out on the rest of contract would result in a "managable" penalty, the source admitted.

The air force is said to be looking at two aircraft, the P-8 Poseidon and the ASTOR.

The U.S. Navy replaced its Auroras with Boeing manufactured P-8s, which are essentially 737s modified for surveillance. The ASTOR is a smaller version of Quebec-based Bombardier's Global Express jet.

[xsbank]

We make these:

The peak of business aviation, Bombardier Global jets are built to surpass anything else in the sky. Operating at altitudes up to 51,000 feet (15,545 m), they fly faster, farther, access shorter airfields and can climb quicker than any other business jets in their class. They offer a more expansive cabin for equipment and mission personnel and higher ground clearance to support mission sensor installation. Ideal for a full spectrum of missions, Bombardier Global Express XRS and Global 5000 aircraft share sophisticated and superior systems. This high level of commonality can offer significant cost benefits.

Roles list
Flight inspection - Maritime patrol - Airborne Stand-off Radar (ASTOR) - Search and rescue - Air ambulance - Environmental monitoring - Surveillance - VIP transport - Photo mapping - Reconnaissance photography - AEW - Signal Intelligence (SIGINT) - Command and control communications - Multi-missions

Unique capabilities
The list of capabilities that recommended the use of Bombardier Global Express aircraft for special missions is impressive. Its massive cabin provides maximum flexibility. Its damage-tolerant airframe provides superior structural integrity. Furthermore, its range and high-speed dash are without equal. Adding to this list are the Global Express' excellent loiter time capabilities at low speeds and high altitudes, its higher ceiling which provides greater look-down capability and its ability to fly over 15 hours without refueling - a level of endurance beyond that of any other business aircraft.

Capable of climbing up to 51,000 feet (15,545 m), the Bombardier Global Express XRS has the ability to loiter multiple hours at high altitudes due to its ultra long-range capabilities and excellent fuel efficiency. For example, at 41,000 feet (12,497 m), it can fly out 500 nm (926 km) and loiter up to 11 hours*.

*Assumptions: Departing from DUBAI (OMDB) ISA+20°C takeoff, Great Circle Distances, MZFW = 56,000 lb., Zero Winds, ISA en route Conditions, NBAA IFR Fuel Reserves, M0.80 Cruise Speed, Loiter Speed = VMD, Climb Ceiling @ 200 fpm, Estimated 5% Fuel Flow Degradation for 9 Drag Counts.

The world's most advanced platform for ASTOR
In 1995, the United Kingdom selected two teams to bid on the most ambitious, most complex mission of its type ever undertaken: the Airborne Stand-Off Radar (ASTOR) program. Raytheon Systems Limited, which would ultimately win the contract, studied 30 aircraft in detail. After rigorous analysis of each aircraft, Raytheon selected the Bombardier Global Express as the only aircraft in the world capable of fulfilling this demanding role.

With its impressive electrical power-generating ability, large cabin size, superior performance, strong future growth potential and design features such as wing slats and flaps, the Bombardier Global XRS and the Bombardier Global 5000 are ideal for a full spectrum of missions, from low-speed, low-altitude to high-speed, high-altitude applications.

Powerful risk mitigation
For Raytheon Systems Limited and the ASTOR program, Bombardier represented a significant reduction in risk. The Bombardier Global Express was designed to Extended Twin-Engine Operations (ETOPS) requirements, and the stringent certification work completed prior to the program's inception provided a wealth of data useful in pinpointing necessary system alterations early in the process. As a modern, clean sheet design, the aircraft is far more flexible and meets or exceeds higher certification levels than those held by its key competitors, which are based on airframes that date back to the 1960s.

[WJflyer]

We make these:

The peak of business aviation, Bombardier Global jets are built to surpass anything else in the sky. Operating at altitudes up to 51,000 feet (15,545 m), they fly faster, farther, access shorter airfields and can climb quicker than any other business jets in their class. They offer a more expansive cabin for equipment and mission personnel and higher ground clearance to support mission sensor installation. Ideal for a full spectrum of missions, Bombardier Global Express XRS and Global 5000 aircraft share sophisticated and superior systems. This high level of commonality can offer significant cost benefits.

Roles list
Flight inspection - Maritime patrol - Airborne Stand-off Radar (ASTOR) - Search and rescue - Air ambulance - Environmental monitoring - Surveillance - VIP transport - Photo mapping - Reconnaissance photography - AEW - Signal Intelligence (SIGINT) - Command and control communications - Multi-missions

Unique capabilities
The list of capabilities that recommended the use of Bombardier Global Express aircraft for special missions is impressive. Its massive cabin provides maximum flexibility. Its damage-tolerant airframe provides superior structural integrity. Furthermore, its range and high-speed dash are without equal. Adding to this list are the Global Express' excellent loiter time capabilities at low speeds and high altitudes, its higher ceiling which provides greater look-down capability and its ability to fly over 15 hours without refueling - a level of endurance beyond that of any other business aircraft.

Capable of climbing up to 51,000 feet (15,545 m), the Bombardier Global Express XRS has the ability to loiter multiple hours at high altitudes due to its ultra long-range capabilities and excellent fuel efficiency. For example, at 41,000 feet (12,497 m), it can fly out 500 nm (926 km) and loiter up to 11 hours*.

*Assumptions: Departing from DUBAI (OMDB) ISA+20°C takeoff, Great Circle Distances, MZFW = 56,000 **., Zero Winds, ISA en route Conditions, NBAA IFR Fuel Reserves, M0.80 Cruise Speed, Loiter Speed = VMD, Climb Ceiling @ 200 fpm, Estimated 5% Fuel Flow Degradation for 9 Drag Counts.

The world's most advanced platform for ASTOR
In 1995, the United Kingdom selected two teams to bid on the most ambitious, most complex mission of its type ever undertaken: the Airborne Stand-Off Radar (ASTOR) program. Raytheon Systems Limited, which would ultimately win the contract, studied 30 aircraft in detail. After rigorous analysis of each aircraft, Raytheon selected the Bombardier Global Express as the only aircraft in the world capable of fulfilling this demanding role.

With its impressive electrical power-generating ability, large cabin size, superior performance, strong future growth potential and design features such as wing slats and flaps, the Bombardier Global XRS and the Bombardier Global 5000 are ideal for a full spectrum of missions, from low-speed, low-altitude to high-speed, high-altitude applications.

Powerful risk mitigation
For Raytheon Systems Limited and the ASTOR program, Bombardier represented a significant reduction in risk. The Bombardier Global Express was designed to Extended Twin-Engine Operations (ETOPS) requirements, and the stringent certification work completed prior to the program's inception provided a wealth of data useful in pinpointing necessary system alterations early in the process. As a modern, clean sheet design, the aircraft is far more flexible and meets or exceeds higher certification levels than those held by its key competitors, which are based on airframes that date back to the 1960s.

Problem is the role. ASTOR is a high altitude surveillance platform. If we want a high altitude surveillance platform, we would pick a UAV like Global Hawk to fulfil this need, as they are cheaper to operate and obtain. We need a platform that is suited for medium to low altitude patrol, has long range at medium to low altitudes, and can deliver weapons onto a target if needed. ASTOR has none of these need capabilities.