Flight School vs Aviation College

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LastSamurai
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Post by LastSamurai »

Alright, my post was a bit hasty, but I am still sticking to what I said.

As for elitist attitudes...better re-read your post cuz they are drooling with them :!:

I completely agree with you however, a college will do nothing to get you started. It is aimed at your career further down the line...nothing wrong with that. As for train where you work :roll: a lot of places (charters) dont operate flight schools so the only way to get into those companies is to work ramp or other positions before getting on the flight line. Other than training at a school and then doing an instructor rating...which other school hires you right from finishing your ratings :shock: If you know, please let the aviation industry know :!: :!: :!:

But please dont say that college grads are above their work...this just is NOT the case :evil:

G
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Post by Disco Stu »

The only benefit that you have shown for going to a club, and arguably so, (you will never convice me that the costs are that much cheaper) is the financial one. I will throw in that it takes less time as well.

That is a very narrow minded view in my opinion. College provides you with:

-Greater networking abilities (I talk with selkirk grads as far back as the 70s for job info)
-More experienced instructors
-Free unlimited sims at some
-More advanced equipment at the larger colleges (how many clubs have BE20 sims, DC-9 sims, etc)
-University transfer credits
-More indepth groundschool
-Access to Canada Student Loan program (do clubs have this? I am honestly not sure if you can qualify for this to go to a club)
-Better recognition at the airlines and at some small operators

There are more. If you want to spend (arguably) less money, and less time in pursuit of your licences, then by all means go to a club. You want more of a life experience, and the adventures that going to a post-secondary institution provide, and all the above things I have mentioned, go to college.

Again, we may as well just agree to disagree, because you and I will never see eye to eye on this.
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Post by Cat Driver »

We should examine the bottom line.

Regardless of the airplane the most important skill a pilot needs is how to fly it.

Two things are needed to be a good pilot aircraft handling wise.

(1) A natural talent to learn the skill.

(2) An instructor who knows how to fly and how to teach. These teachers can be found at both colleges and FTU's.

The rest is a bonus.

Cat
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Post by Airtids »

Well, a new day, and things have changed. :D

540, I know who you are (how many of your classmates do you think speak French and flew Centennial and NAMAO's a/c?) and I must say I'm disappointed :cry: . I'm sure you could care less which means that at least we agree on one thing. I do have to congratulate you, however, on having the brains to see your mistake, and the courage to do the right thing about it and apologise (sort of... :? )both here and in a PM. Perhaps English should be a few more credits because your reading comprehension (about my feelings of college grads working hard) and vocabulary skills (better look up elitism before accusing me of that trait) could use some work.
I understand what got you all riled up, so I had my wife (my biggest critic by far :oops: ) read this today, and she agrees that NOWHERE did I infer that this was MY opinion, merely that the stereotype exists. Even beyond that, I made a point of showing that I DO HIRE College grads, and my experience in that department has been excellent.
Finally, you've got my concept backwards. When I say 'Train where you will work', what I mean is choose to spend your flight training dollars at a location where you at least have a chance to get hired. Of course, I know that CMA (for example) doesn't have a flight school. That's not what I'm driving at. There are MANY schools who will hire their CPL into a dispatch, or ramp, if not a flight position. I will reply to you and discuss a few issues that are better suited to a PM.

Stu, finally we're getting to what I'm looking for in this thread!! Your comments about 'WHY the college' address directly my query here. I will agree that a core of alumni thirty years deep must have it's benefits, for a few grads, anyhow (540's disparaging remarks about one of his own, however, leave me shaking my head). Remember, though, that the FBO sees plenty of itinerant pilots rolling through from all aspects of the industry who are always happy to share their knowledge and insight as well. The equipment is indeed generally more advanced (a result of the higher cost). Transfer credits, and deeper level of knowledge are givens- this is why it takes two years to complete the program. As to your comments about experienced instructors; as has been pointed out, quality (high and low) instructors can be found everywhere. Student loan money is available at ANY accredited post-secondary education institution.
I never came in here to get people to agree with me, merely to discuss the issue without getting personal. So much for that. Must've forgotten I was at Avcanada.
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Post by hz2p »

I am going to start two - no, make it three - year college programs to teach people:

1) how to drive transport trucks
2) how to operate cranes
3) how to drive bulldozers

We're heavy equipment operators, for god's sake, that pay union dues.
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Post by scubasteve »

airtids - just curious exactly what you mean by ANY post secondary institution? I know that the banks dont readily accept flight schools for student lines of credit. You have to apply for an exemption and hope for a nice banker to help you out. There are, or at least were, flight schools in Ontario anyway that qualify for govt loans. I dont think the bank line of credits are easy to get for private colleges either.

On a separate note, I've pm'd you and emailed your company a couple times in the past year, most recently in august or september, and havent heard back. Its possible it never went thru so I'm curious if either got to you. thanks
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Post by Disco Stu »

airtids,

Didn't realize I had made it personal. Or anyone had. If disagreeing with you is personal, then we may as well end this discussion. Wouldn't want to hurt any feelings.

Lastly, are you sure that you qualify for the "Canada Student Loans" program at an FBO or club? Don't confuse that with a student loan from a bank. Interest rates are different, repayment plans are different, interest relief periods are different, and most importantly, intrest earned on the loan is tax deductable.

And I'd be interested to hear of all these companies that hire the pilots that trained in their school division to work the ramp on their charter side. I can't think of any. In fact the ratio of pilots trained to jobs available at that school is probably pretty high. I am sure the chances of you getting a job where you trained are about the same as getting a job anywhere.

Anyone who got a job this way, please fill me in.
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Post by Right Seat Captain »

Allow me to add a major advantage to learning to fly at a Club: Networking.

I'm sorry to say that you get very little chance to network when you're in college. But while you're at a Club, you get to meet people who come in the door, offer opportunities, go out to wherever you want, whenever you want and meet employers...

I have friends who have gone through both the Club route and the College route, and the ones throught the club route are the ones flying, compared to the college grads loading planes and flipping burgers.
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Post by shimmydampner »

Cat Driver wrote:We should examine the bottom line.

Regardless of the airplane the most important skill a pilot needs is how to fly it.

Two things are needed to be a good pilot aircraft handling wise.

(1) A natural talent to learn the skill.

(2) An instructor who knows how to fly and how to teach. These teachers can be found at both colleges and FTU's.

The rest is a bonus.

Cat
Right on Cat, so far that's the best post on the subject. I'm a college grad, and I'd have to say the posts about the college route taking longer and being more expensive are incorrect in my case. It took me about a year and 8 months and I did so at a very inexpensive price. And to those who think you can't network, well, all but one of my jobs have been thanks to contacts obtained through college.
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Post by Disco Stu »

Right Seat Captain wrote:Allow me to add a major advantage to learning to fly at a Club: Networking.

I'm sorry to say that you get very little chance to network when you're in college. But while you're at a Club, you get to meet people who come in the door, offer opportunities, go out to wherever you want, whenever you want and meet employers...

I have friends who have gone through both the Club route and the College route, and the ones throught the club route are the ones flying, compared to the college grads loading planes and flipping burgers.
BS
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Post by Airtids »

scubasteve,

My appologies. I have just read your message, and will reply to the e-ddress supplied. If it is no longer active, let me know.
For both you and Stu, ALL post-secondary institutions have to be registered here in B.C. (and in every other province with a similar body, as far as I know) with PPSEC http://www.ppsec.bc.ca in order to do business. If the school is ACCREDITED, their students are then able to qualify for student loans programs both federally, and provincially, just like any college. That college ALSO has to be accredited with PPSEC, but by virtue of the ability to grant diplomas (the gov't has already assessed thier program), the qualifications for accreditation are automatically met for the college. We all go through the same process. There is nothing special about a college in the eyes of PPSEC.

STU,

Heaven forbid anyone disagree with you. Should make for some interesting CRM. RSC posted his/her observations, but you don't like them so i guess it must be BS.

See my notes above re: Student Loans.

Now, which flight school hires from their grads onto the ramp? Starting from the West: Juan Air, Vic. Flying Club, Pro IFR, Pacific Flying Club, Southern Skies Aviation, Air-Hart, Carson Air, High Alpine Air, Sharp Wings, Morgan Air, Calgary Flying Club, Perimeter..., should I go on, or do you understand that doing YOUR research is not MY job. EVERYONE would rather hire their own before outsiders. Where do you think these operations get their pilots from? Do you think that they're training a bunch of pilots, learning all about these people along the way, and then cutting them loose only to hire wildcards they know nothing about? Additionally, I happen to believe that if someone sees fit to spend their flight training dollars with me, thereby investing in my company, I have an OBLIGATION to try and return the favor by giving them the first crack at any employment that comes up. The owner of any 406/702/703/704 operation will feel the same. Has this never occurred to you? Did this not occur to you when you chose where to train? Why not? You are correct in your assumptions that there are always more grads than jobs. Not every student is right for the job, and not every student WANTS the job that is available. The company hires the best one(s) for the position(s), the rest join the pool of pilots looking elsewhere, but at least they had a SHOT at those jobs, that the student who trained elsewhere (like a College) didn't. GET IT?
Didn't realize I had made it personal. Or anyone had. If disagreeing with you is personal, then we may as well end this discussion. Wouldn't want to hurt any feelings.
Everything was nice and civilised until:
I notice you are in YCG? Having a hard time competing with Selkirk?
You'll have to do better than that to hurt my feelings. It would be nice, however, if you could accept some responsibilty for this nice, generic discussion about Flight Schools (in GENERAL) and College Programs (IN GENERAL) disintegrating the way it has. You seem very sensitive about the prospect that a student from a "lowly" FBO has every opportunity awaiting them that you do. Too bad.
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Post by Disco Stu »

Get over yourself.

Seriously.
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Post by Airtids »

Stu,
Get over yourself.

Seriously.
Once again, things don't go as you want, so you get personal. How very mature. Good luck.
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Post by LastSamurai »

Now, which flight school hires from their grads onto the ramp? Starting from the West: Juan Air, Vic. Flying Club, Pro IFR, Pacific Flying Club, Southern Skies Aviation, Air-Hart, Carson Air, High Alpine Air, Sharp Wings, Morgan Air, Calgary Flying Club, Perimeter..., should I go on, or do you understand that doing YOUR research is not MY job.
Sure you could try getting on working the ramp or other duties...but your going to probably wait a couple of years for a flying position due to all the students wanting jobs with those outfits (generally speaking). :cry:

So how does that put you ahead...it doesnt :roll: . So you can do your training at a "lowly FBO" and then pray to get on the ramp...do 2 years on the ramp and therefore be flying about 3-4 years later. Or again, go to a college, do the 2 year program, get hired on the ramp with ANY company (even some that "only hire their own students"--yes, it happends) work for no more than a year and therefore be flying in 2.5-3 years.

If knowledge learned is the only big difference between the two routes (college vs. FBO)...well, going to have to side on the college direction.

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Post by Cat Driver »

O.K. :

Help me out here.

Lets suppose I own a float palne charter company and am looking for a pilot.

What special knowledge would a college graduate have that would put him / her above a graduate from lets say Air Hart, or one of the other schools??

Cat
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Post by LastSamurai »

To answer your question: none.

You bring up a good point here Cat and I think that it depends on what the pilot wants out of their career. Airlines require post-secondary education. Now, this does not require you to go to an aviation college. But why not kill two birds with one stone....you get your post-secondary education as well as all your licenses. If you dont feel that post-secondary education is necessary...thats fine too, but I think it limits your possibilities and not just in aviation. More and more companies are requiring future employees to have post-secondary education.

So that brings us back to Airtids original question: college vs. FBO???

I think that aviation colleges (any post-seconday education) offer more opportunities later in the pilots career.

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Post by Right Seat Captain »

Knowledge is good, and post secondary education, College or University is also good. But many consider a Commercial Licence, through college or not, as the equivalent of a College Dimploma, and an ATPL as the equivalent of a University degree. Honestly, once you've learnt enough to get an ATPL, what knowledge does an aviation college graduate have over a pilot who went through a flight school?
GTSIO540 wrote: If knowledge learned is the only big difference between the two routes (college vs. FBO)...well, going to have to side on the college direction.
What I'm saying here, is if more knowledge is what you want, or need, get some college education outside of an aviation program. You're going to learn that stuff regardless if you persevere in the industry. And the key word here is persevere. What if you don't. We all have these grandiose dreams of flying, but there are still many who end up doing something else...either bevause they can't find there place in the industry, or they just don't enjoy it like they thought they would. So what then? What good is that aviation dimploma.

For something you pay a lot of money and EXTRA time into, to get something you would get over time anyways, why not spend that same time learning something different, like aircraft mechanics. I'm sure someone like Cat would find that useful if he were hiring pilots. Get an engineering degree, learn how the damn thing flies.

I do see a fresh college graduate with a bit more knowledge over the FBO guy at 250 hours, but when they get to 1000, they both know the same thing. They both need to learn more anyways to write the ATPL exams.
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Post by LastSamurai »

You make very good points RSC.

What I am saying (and forgot to mention) is that you can use your credits for the courses taken at an aviation college for higher learning...if more knowledge is the person in question is seeking. Many pursue a degree by correspondance while working/flying.

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Post by . . »

Right Seat Captain wrote:Allow me to add a major advantage to learning to fly at a Club: Networking.

I'm sorry to say that you get very little chance to network when you're in college. But while you're at a Club, you get to meet people who come in the door, offer opportunities, go out to wherever you want, whenever you want and meet employers...

I have friends who have gone through both the Club route and the College route, and the ones throught the club route are the ones flying, compared to the college grads loading planes and flipping burgers.
I went to the Sault College reunion in September. I can assure you that FBO's don't have 30 year reunions filling halls with grads.
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Post by CLguy »

Confederation College has a reunion every 5 years. Can you say networking!!! There are more job changing hands after one of those than people can imagine. I know an F-18 Pilot who got hired to fly a F-28 at 4 in the morning. I would doubt anyone that trained at an FBO would have that opportunity.

It is absolutely amazing how well the grads have done and some of the positions they hold. At an FBO there isn't even an avenue for someone to track how everyone is doing after 30 years.

Cat as far as kids now days not knowing how to use their feet, it is nothing new. It all depends on what you train on and unfortunately very few people get to train on tail draggers anymore, so anyone off a small Cessna will have that problem. When I went from a C-172 to a C-170 on skiis some 30 years ago, I remember my instructor, the legendary James Cousineau telling me I had to learn to use my feet.
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Post by Cat Driver »

Yes and when you finally get that job way , way up north and you are all alone you learn to ues your hands. :mrgreen:
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Post by CLguy »

I always thought that was what the cabin girls at the lodges were for. Maybe I did it all wrong!!! I probably need more training!!!
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Post by Airtids »

I went to the Sault College reunion in September. I can assure you that FBO's don't have 30 year reunions filling halls with grads.
Absolutely right, and good point. One of the admitted benefits of an organised program in existance for decades is the depth of their alumni.
I do see a fresh college graduate with a bit more knowledge over the FBO guy at 250 hours, but when they get to 1000, they both know the same thing. They both need to learn more anyways to write the ATPL exams.
Another good point. Once you're "In" in this industry, THEN your education really begins, regardless of where you trained.
Sure you could try getting on working the ramp or other duties...but your going to probably wait a couple of years for a flying position due to all the students wanting jobs with those outfits (generally speaking).
I don't really understand your thinking here. Why is it that you think you would wait longer for a flying position working ramp "A" at the school you trained at, than you would working ramp "B" where you didn't train. Ramp "B" has just as many folks looking for positions on their ramp, no?
Remember also, the FBO route will have you out trying to nail that ramp job sooner than your peer who went the College route. So in effect, even if you don't get hired by the school where you trained, you're still looking at an airplane a year sooner aren't you?
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Post by LastSamurai »

Remember also, the FBO route will have you out trying to nail that ramp job sooner than your peer who went the College route.
I totally agree with you here :!:

However, while the guy who is training at the FBO along with 5 or 6 other students, they are all competing for that one or two jobs that that FBO is offering. They only have that one FBO for a job contact while through networking, college grads can try getting a job with many different companies, wherever networking brings them. I realize of course that the FBO student can just as easily go out and look for jobs with many different companies as well, but what are the chances of them having internal references :?:

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Post by tailgunner »

I must step in.Damn.
Firstly, I personally know that at Selkirk there are sime fine instructors giving excellent training. A post secondary education WILL further your career if one decides to pursue a management type of position. I firmly believe that having an education enhances that chance.
Secondly, I would caution young people about getting a dedicated " aviation" diploma versus a general one or a trade. If the industry goes sour, ones "aviation management " diploma is essentially worthless, but if one had an electrical, business, or B.A. then there may be more options .
Thirdly, I strongly believe that most commercial liscence traning is flawed. I cannot see how learning EFIS/FMS systems when one has 100hrs will logically help you. Ones first job will most likely be on a 206 or Twotter hauling frozen pizzas to camps up north! So it makes no difference whether one learns from Selkirk in a white shirt and tie, or from an FBO , we should be teaching practical flying. Cold weather ops, Bush flying, How to fly a heavily loaded a/c, etc. etc.
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