Liberals again? Screw you Ontario, I am moving to Alberta!

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:22 pm

xsbank wrote:I can't believe a whole election swung on the private schools issue. What a non-event. The kids have to be educated and the government is supposed to pay so.....what?

"There's bigots on the starboard bow,
Starboard bow
Starboard bow
There's bigots on the starboard bow..."

Somebody explain to me why that's so scary?

You can drop the bigotry crap, you're starting to sound like Hedy Fry. I already explained why it's a bad idea but here it is again.

Funding religious schools is a bad idea because:

1. Public funds are limited as you know, and should only go to fund one school system. Yes that means the Catholic board in Ontario should be shut down too. It has nothing to do with number of classrooms or teachers and everything to do with the parallel administrations required for each one.

2. The state has no more business funding religious schools than they do any other special interest group. Or else why wouldn't ethnic groups, vegetarians, gays and gun supporters expect the same consideration? Where do you stop?

3. And finally, any government's involvement with religion should abruptly end at protecting people's right to practice it...period.

JakeYYZ · Post by **JakeYYZ** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:34 pm

Let's be fair. This was never a slam dunk for Mr. Tory.
You have to REALLY screw up to not get a second term. Chretien got a second term,
David Miller got a second term. That said, the majority shouldn't be this big for McGuinty.
School funding took the heat off McGuinty on a number of key issues i.e.,
broken promises, taxes, health care, annoying insincere smile, leadership,
Caledonia, Lying, etc. where many Ontarians are genuinely disappointed and even angry with McGuinty.
Tory stepped on a bag of poo and it followed him around the whole election.

Unfortunate...Nice enough fellow, but piss poor political judgment.

comanchepilot · Post by **comanchepilot** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:08 pm

I can't wait for all the shit to start hitting the fan again once the dust settles from the election...

When the health tax was introduced and people started to notice a chunk disappearing from their take home, they were pissed, but obviously not pissed off enough to remember. Everyone that I talked to when the tax was imposed hated the liberals, yet it seems that none of them had actually voted for them. This wasn't just a few people that I am talking about, but a great number, and others noticed it too. I began to wonder how they even got elected seeing as how everyone and their brother denied voting for them.

Here we are again four years later, people have forgotten and done the same stupid shit once again. This time I hope they do remember... I am not planning on staying in Ontario to work when I am done school this year, at least not for too long, and I really do hope that they screw everyone, otherwise people will just not learn.

Like on the federal side of the coin, it is going to take something as ridiculous as the sponsorship scandal to make people realize that things aren't as good as they seem, and even then we only managed a minority in the house. And as much as the CPL private college ordeal affects, we are such a minority that it makes no difference to the rest of the province.

However, it is a good thing to see so many like minded people here on AvCanada. At least some of us have a friggin clue as to what is going on.

End rant.

Floats · Post by **Floats** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:02 pm

mantogasrsrwy wrote:If they had all got off the couch we would probably have an NDP government now.

Hahah, now thats funny, their welfare cheques havent come in yet, so no point getting off the couch!

Floats

Floats · Post by **Floats** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:09 pm

Funding religious schools is a bad idea because:

1. Public funds are limited as you know, and should only go to fund one school system. Yes that means the Catholic board in Ontario should be shut down too. It has nothing to do with number of classrooms or teachers and everything to do with the parallel administrations required for each one.

2. The state has no more business funding religious schools than they do any other special interest group. Or else why wouldn't ethnic groups, vegetarians, gays and gun supporters expect the same consideration? Where do you stop?

3. And finally, any government's involvement with religion should abruptly end at protecting people's right to practice it...period

Cant agree with you more. Do you think any party would survive with that in their platform? Also many Conservative supportors agree with you as well, hence the party change allowing a free vote.

Problem is, this is not what Mcguinty and the lieberals ran on. They ran on keeping a public school and a seperate Catholic school. What Mr Tory rightly pointed out, that this is not fair. 2 choices, either get rid of seperate system or include everyone. Mr Tory choose the latter, I think it was the wrong choice.

Floats

costermonger · Post by **costermonger** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:21 pm

The frothing indignation around here whenever conservatives fail to win an election is nearly as amusing as it is predictable. You know, the whole "everybody's an idiot", "the voting public are a bunch of morons", "everybody who doesn't think like me must be wrong", "every view but mine is flawed"..

Okay, I admit to paraphrasing a couple of those, but you get the idea. It's like clockwork.

Tory and his campaign staff made a mistake that will probably stand as a leading example of how to hand the election to the other party. Don't act so f*cking surprised.

Floats · Post by **Floats** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:27 pm

niss wrote:You know what? with something like 61L to 25C the last I remember it would seem like the conservative supporters are the wrong. Thats a pretty commanding lead. Its pretty arragant to be such a minority in the political spectrum and then say the majority is wrong.

Its pretty "arragant" also to skew appearances by using #'s that support your cause

Liberals got 42.19% of the popular vote Conservatives got 31.67%

I just don't Identify with the concervatives, I would take lying and cheating any day over intolerance. Im pro-choice, I think its none of anyones business who a man or a woman screw, and to a large extent I am a socialist, not a marxist but the privatise everything attitude of the PC is just too far right for me. I liked some of their platform but realistically I could never see myself voting blue

Its also pretty "arragant" to lie (doesnt suprise me you are a lieberal) Where in the platform does it talk about being against who people screw? Where in the platform does it talk about being against pro-choice? This is why liberals win. You guys are experts at making shit up, experts at spinning things. Congrats on your campaign though, You managed to convince everyone not to vote for Tory, rather than vote for Mcguinty

if there ever was a blue canditate that was centered enough

Hey, How about Mr Tory, a leader very centrist compared to previous conservative leaders

Floats

Floats · Post by **Floats** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:30 pm

costermonger wrote:The frothing indignation around here whenever conservatives fail to win an election is nearly as amusing as it is predictable. You know, the whole "everybody's an idiot", "the voting public are a bunch of morons", "everybody who doesn't think like me must be wrong", "every view but mine is flawed"..

Okay, I admit to paraphrasing a couple of those, but you get the idea. It's like clockwork.

Tory and his campaign staff made a mistake that will probably stand as a leading example of how to hand the election to the other party. Don't act so f*cking surprised.

You are absolutely correct, I shouldnt be so surprised, Im use to Ontarions being morons.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:30 pm

um ... the implicit assumption here is that democracy (one person, one vote) will choose the best government.

If you were born yesterday, can I remind you that the following people were elected by Canadians:

Mackenzie King (seance, anyone?)
Pierre E Trudeau (don't get me started)
Brian Mulroney (ugh)
Jean Cretin (what?!)

Want me to start in on some real winners at the provincial level?

Canadians have a long and embarrassing history of electing fools, liars, idiots and thieves. Why would it stop now?

"One person, one vote" gives someone with an IQ of 50 the same input as someone with an IQ of 150. Prisoners have the vote. Illiterate high school dropouts have the vote.

NEWSFLASH: democracy doesn't work very well. Our government wastes the taxpayer's money and abuses it's citizens, and no one cares.

Frankly, the people in Toronto deserve to inhabit the hell that they live in.

CD · Post by CD » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:48 pm

Floats wrote:You are absolutely correct, I shouldnt be so surprised, Im use to Ontarions being morons.

Well, they did give the conservatives mandates in 21 of the 38 provincial elections over the years...

Floats · Post by **Floats** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:54 pm

flyinphil wrote:Tory screwed up with the ultra-conservative religion based school funding which smacks far too much of our neighbours to the south. That scares a lot of people. If Harper wants a majority government, he will also have to distance himself from that group to the extent he can. Not too many many Canadians want to call Bush family!

Lies and fearmongering!!!! You guys are good at it

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:19 pm

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. "

Winston Churchill

Splatm · Post by **Splatm** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:33 pm

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
Winston Churchill

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:46 pm

Rockie, I don't think I like your tone... you're hurting my feelings.

I don't GARA about school funding, it just amazes me that that topic has sunk a government? I have no use for religion, don't want it in my life, want it out of the state etc etc., but really, does anyone care if the next door neighbour's kid goes to Catholic school? Can't you see some good in the way they are educating their kids? I think that Ontarians obviously don't have anything to worry about or they are being so blindsided by trivial matters that the bad stuff is being ignored.

And they think BC is wacko...

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:23 pm

I don't care what kind of school the next door neighbor's kids go to, but if it's not the existing publicly funded system then I don't want to pay for it. I would rather they take my tax dollars and make one school system the best it can be. It's also open to every single child by the way, no discrimination whatsoever. Also any public policy that encourages segregating school kids along religious or any other lines is an anachronism that is detrimental to any progressive society. I won't bother going into the whole "mixing religion and politics" thing because that should be obvious to everybody.

The thing about political issues is that it's the voters who decide which ones are important or not...not the politicians. I sympathized with Howard Hampton lamenting the fact that the school issue basically hijacked the election agenda, but he should take that up with Tory who was stupid enough to introduce it in the first place. If you needlessly put an issue on the table that the electorate has strong feelings about then you should expect a strong reaction. That whole fiasco just shows how out of touch all the party's were with the voters.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:14 pm

It pisses me off when people try and say that Democracy doesn't work or make dumb ass statements like "I'm embarassed to be Canadian" How shitty has your world got to be to think life isn't pretty sweet here. I get pissed at some of the things governments do both the socialist ones and conservative ones. But there is no way in hell I would accept anyone has it better than us. Canada and our political system works pretty well if you ask me.

LegoMan · Post by **LegoMan** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:31 pm

Dust Devil wrote:It pisses me off when people try and say that Democracy doesn't work or make dumb ass statements like "I'm embarassed to be Canadian" How shitty has your world got to be to think life isn't pretty sweet here. I get pissed at some of the things governments do both the socialist ones and conservative ones. But there is no way in hell I would accept anyone has it better than us. Canada and our political system works pretty well if you ask me.

As compared to what?

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:34 pm

LegoMan wrote:
Dust Devil wrote:It pisses me off when people try and say that Democracy doesn't work or make dumb ass statements like "I'm embarassed to be Canadian" How shitty has your world got to be to think life isn't pretty sweet here. I get pissed at some of the things governments do both the socialist ones and conservative ones. But there is no way in hell I would accept anyone has it better than us. Canada and our political system works pretty well if you ask me.
As compared to what?

Who has it better?

LegoMan · Post by **LegoMan** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:53 pm

Dust Devil wrote:
LegoMan wrote:
Dust Devil wrote:It pisses me off when people try and say that Democracy doesn't work or make dumb ass statements like "I'm embarassed to be Canadian" How shitty has your world got to be to think life isn't pretty sweet here. I get pissed at some of the things governments do both the socialist ones and conservative ones. But there is no way in hell I would accept anyone has it better than us. Canada and our political system works pretty well if you ask me.
As compared to what?
Who has it better?

Time to travel friend... outside of North America. You will find your answer... you can start with New Zealand.

And if you say Canada has best health care system, we are ranked 32nd in the world. France, Italy, Spain, Singapore, Oman, Japan all beat us.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:02 pm

What makes New Zealand better than here? I have everything I need here. I feel free to do as I please. I have a pretty good standard of living. I enjoy my job and my family is close. I can't imagine anywhere else in the world having all these things for me. Do I want to see us do better? Sure. People should work hard to make every year better than than last. Still makes this place tops to me. If you like New Zealand better you should get on a boat.

And if you don't think Canada is #1 don't call me friend

Guido · Post by **Guido** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:03 pm

AUGER9 wrote:
niss wrote:
I identify with the libs more than the concervatives.

Lesser of two evils.
---

LegoMan wrote: People probably didnt care to vote because:

A.) they knew either way they would get screwed, no party really offered anything.

or

B.) they were to busy working 2 jobs to pay their taxes.
or C) Is in college and wasn't allowed to vote because I wasnt in my electoral district at time of the election.

WRONG!

If you get mail at your address at college, you could've registered to vote there. My roomate did - showed her rental agreement with the address on it. (I have actually moved my address to where I'm going to school, so it was just standard for me)

LegoMan · Post by **LegoMan** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:07 pm

Dust Devil wrote:What makes New Zealand better than here? I have everything I need here. I feel free to do as I please. I have a pretty good standard of living. I enjoy my job and my family is close. I can't imagine anywhere else in the world having all these things for me. Do I want to see us do better? Sure. People should work hard to make every year better than than last. Still makes this place tops to me. If you like New Zealand better you should get on a boat.

And if you don't think Canada is #1 don't call me friend

Well I'm very happy that you enjoy your life in Canada. But your question was who has it better. And unless you've travelled the world its pretty arrogant to sit there and say Canada is #1. Just like if you were to buy a Toyota Corolla and say its the best car in the world when its the only car you've ever driven. (And no I dont drive a Toyota

)

flyinphil · Post by **flyinphil** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:46 pm

Floats wrote:
flyinphil wrote:Tory screwed up with the ultra-conservative religion based school funding which smacks far too much of our neighbours to the south. That scares a lot of people. If Harper wants a majority government, he will also have to distance himself from that group to the extent he can. Not too many many Canadians want to call Bush family!
Lies and fearmongering!!!! You guys are good at it

Who guys?? Shite, I voted for Tory. I am just pointing out where he went wrong..

Floats · Post by **Floats** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:42 pm

flyinphil wrote:
Floats wrote:
flyinphil wrote:Tory screwed up with the ultra-conservative religion based school funding which smacks far too much of our neighbours to the south. That scares a lot of people. If Harper wants a majority government, he will also have to distance himself from that group to the extent he can. Not too many many Canadians want to call Bush family!
Lies and fearmongering!!!! You guys are good at it
Who guys?? Shite, I voted for Tory. I am just pointing out where he went wrong..

glad to hear it, But I disagree with what you said. A policy to include all religions in the education funding formula is so far from a Ultra-conservative ideal. So I have no idea how you can relate this to the religious right of the south.

But I do agree with you. it was his downfall. Tory lost the election as opposed to Mcguinty winning it

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:32 am

It's true that anybody who blindly claims "Canada is the best in every way!" hasn't travelled much.

To the people who say, "It's not so bad here", I can't help but think of someone in prison who gets gang raped once a week, and someone telling him that he's lucky, in the next cell block people get gang raped every day.

It's truly disappointing that Canadians set the bar so low. Why don't they want better government?

As far as education goes, I will get crapped on, but I am a strong proponent of "vouchers". What is a "voucher", you say? Well, it's a teacher's union worst nightmare.

Vouchers enable parents to put their kids into any school they want to - and the schools are funded by the vouchers.

Vouchers enable parents to pull money out of the public monopolized unionized school system, which drives Buzz Hargrove nuts, because the union members then have to compete and produce a competitive service, which everyone knows they don't want to.

Public monopolies, like the government school system and the government health care system, produce at best a marginal product at a very high price. As usual, the taxpayer gets shafted.

For residents of Ontario, are you happy with the prices you pay for booze at the LCBO, another public monopoly? Do you think it's the best price in the world?

How about the post office? They do such a great job, there is an incredible multi-billion-dollar private sector industry of couriers ... ever heard of Fedex? UPS? DHL?