Tim Hortons co-founder reported to be OK after plane crashes

[Greg87]

I don't know much more than anyone else, however I have a bone to pick with some people here. You seem more concerned with how Jetport and how Ron Joyce will be punished for this. You're quick to accuse the pilot of being untrained and incapable of performing his job. I am a former employee of Jetport, having worked on the line crew. I will be honest and say that there were people I didn't get along with great, however all of the pilots, ame's, flight co ordinators, line crew, everybody there was a professional. The pilots on the Global were likely the most experienced pilots at the company, as there are currently only a few people trained on the Global. Also they were trained by Bombardier, so whatever the comment regarding the training department was... Like I said, I had my differences with some people there, likely two of them were on that aircraft, however I still would rather fly with them than many other people. Also, if this had have ended in a disastrous crash, the same people poking fun at the crew and Mr. Joyce would have been posting about their sympathies and how it is a shame to lose a great pilot.

[flyinphil]

Greg, You seem like a very nice , well intentioned young man but are just a little sheltered by your youth. There are no doubt good people there but are they part of the solution or part of the problem? Everyone who has worked there knows who the problem is in the organization.

The ice may be fine where you skated but it is thin and the water is deep elsewhere!

[xsbank]

Greg, nobody is ridiculing the crew, certainly not me, but having worked in a training organization for a while, this kind of thing is one of an instructor's nightmares. A new crew you've trained from scratch goes out and 'immediately' thunders in. Fortunately, that has never happened with anybody I trained (fate? kismet? karma?) but I can imagine in detail what is happening at the Bombardier training centre about now.

This is only the second Global to ever have been damaged and this one is by far the youngest. That this happened to an organization that has had a couple of other 'incidents' rings a few bells for me.

The Global is a big a/c, about 100,000 lbs gross (maybe 95 for the 5000) and I suspect that these guys may have spent too long in small jets, not yet familiar with the inertia and behaviour of a large a/c, especially in sh*tty weather. The first experience in a 747-400 sim I made a dog's breakfast out of it for that reason.

I really don't know what happened, but something caused them to land short and I will stand in line to find out.

Maybe they should have just said 'no' that day.

[Snowgoose]

Here's the first pic of the plane.

Perhaps it was a simple error. Guys used to flying short jets take a heavy long jet into a short runway. They want to put it on the numbers as it's a contaminated short runway. And add in a some gusts. There's a whole section in Handling the Big Jets about flying longer airplanes. Only speculation, though. We'll have to wait to see what the TSB has to say about it.



The interesting thing I find is that Joyce owns Fox Harb'r and Jetport. Why is he having press conferences everyday to discuss the situation. You'd think he may want to keep it on the downlow so as not to hurt either business.

[Snowgoose]

Just reading some comments on an article in the http://www.hfxnews.ca

Funny stuff!

Mackay from Dartmouth, NS writes: Yet another Bombardier Aircraft with landing gear issues... Last month, Scandinavia's SAS airline permanently grounded its entire fleet of Bombardier Q400 turboprop planes because of three separate issues with landing gear that failed upon touching down. A troubling sign for the Canadian manufacturer.

Ted from Enfield, NS writes: Yes.... yet another Bombardier landing gear problem.

No doubt if the company is found to be at fault with its landing gear designs, the feds will jump in with all kinds of taxpayer funding to help out this Quebec company in either fixing the problem or paying off the claimants. Anything to get votes in Quebec.

Harper is as much a vote-sl.ut as Chretien and Mulroney and Trudeau all were.

Disgraceful.

Here's a blurb from wikipeadia

The Bombardier Global 5000 private jet is a slightly shortened version of its bigger brother, the Global Express XRS. It can fly close to 5000 nautical miles nonstop at Mach .80. The average trip lengths for most operators is 2.5 hours where the aircraft will cruise between Mach .85 and Mach .89, making it one of the fastest long range jets available today. Typical configuration features 13 - 15 passenger seats including fully berthable seats and an aft lounge/bedroom. The aircraft has a full galley and two lavatories. Its maximum takeoff weight 89,700 lbs (typical configuration including optional SBs will net a 52,000 to 55,000 empty weight.) The maximum certified altitude is 51,000. The typical approach speed is 108 knots requiring approximately 2,600 feet of runway for landing.

[james joyce]

Again an corporate operator meets their grief !! flight safety trained where money and influence outway any professional objective critia.Canadian corporate where they wont hire airline guys.what a sad situation.
ego is a dangerous thing,only by maintain a objective flight department can this be avoided.
having flown for a previous corporate operator I can atest to the lack of professionalism.
good luck to all,but I asume the days spent cleaning and gladhanding shall continue were no one checks the what if,s
hire an professional before the insurance companies put you out of business which is going to happen soon
good luck,but try to be professional next time

[Forest Gump]

Hey, JJ, you short-sighted, ego-maniacal clown. No other corporate op bears any resemblance to Jetport and you should know, as a "former corporate pilot", the job also bears little resemblance to airline flying. i.e. going into unfamiliar strips at any time and not having the option of canceling because the weather might not be ideal. Don't lump other corporate ops with Jetport..it's insulting. The record for the rest of the sector is very good.

[james joyce]

actually just been around long eneough.You mean no option this must be a military must go operation.What, you as a professional can not cancel really, now you know why my opion is such.And yes most corporations mean well but without objective checking you will never know.
And yet you are reduced to to personnel attack on me,how petty.

[james joyce]

little resemblance to airline flying,trust me the aircraft knows not who flies it or why !! there is nor should there be a diffence, airplanes are stupid they have have no idea of our intent.

[Alex YCV]

I am betting a couple of the passengers had to pull some cream filling out of their shorts after that landing.

[55+]

Look at the "cautions" published in the CFS for CFH4, that says it all. Note the headers are annotated in BOLD for emphasis
In my previous like there was plenty of internal debate/questions on publication of that facility and it’s associated”issues”

[Hedley]

CFH4 runway is 4,885 x 75 feet.

For comparison, 89N runway is 4280 x 60 ft
and I've seen bizjets in there. 15 feet narrower,
600 feet shorter, and the first 200 feet is rough -
effective length 4,080 x 60 feet. Really, 89N is
800 feet shorter, and 15 feet narrower than CFH4:

http://www.airnav.com/airport/89N

[Snowgoose]

Here's another pic

[xsbank]

Must be great living there with the threat of a Global stuffing its nose in your condo. That picture brings tears to my eyes. I have NO IDEA what happened but I still want to slap that crew.

Global pilots on new aircraft will be Bombardier trained - its part of the purchase deal, plus they can have a Bombardier guy fly with them for some hours to check 'em out.

Busting the gear off on the edge of a runway must be a Bombardier gear problem. I told you not to pay any attention to the media because if it has an airplane in it, they will get it wrong.

J.J., I take offense in your blanket condemnation of corporate pilots. Just because you drive a bus from Montreal to Toronna 14 times a day and you have support systems that do everything for you does not make you more "professional." The mere fact that you can state such twaddle negates anything useful you might have had to say. "Outway?"

This is the first Global accident in Canada and as far as I know, the first accident that has actually caused any damage, out of two. The other one was entirely pilot error and the poor sap was fired.

The Global is an absolutely gorgeous aircraft, built like a tank. I guarantee any pilot worth his license will get all wobbly in the knees the first time you walk up to her. The Global makes a Challenger look like a Tonka toy and it is by far the most powerful, highest flying, best stopping, best everything airplane I have every flown, or hope to fly. I don't have my QRH here but you will see Vrefs lower than 100 knots in certain conditions. The only two bad things about it is it can go to FL510 for about 13 hours, and I am not flying one now!

To set the record straight, I am not advocating LESS TC/TSB involvement in this event but MORE involvement from them in ALL accidents. I agree with Widow that the way they treated 'her' accident is almost feckless.

[Hedley]

August 27, 1990: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevie_Ray_Vaughan

[CID]

J.J.

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Quote:
Mackay from Dartmouth, NS writes: Yet another Bombardier Aircraft with landing gear issues... Last month, Scandinavia's SAS airline permanently grounded its entire fleet of Bombardier Q400 turboprop planes because of three separate issues with landing gear that failed upon touching down. A troubling sign for the Canadian manufacturer.


Quote:
Ted from Enfield, NS writes: Yes.... yet another Bombardier landing gear problem.

No doubt if the company is found to be at fault with its landing gear designs, the feds will jump in with all kinds of taxpayer funding to help out this Quebec company in either fixing the problem or paying off the claimants. Anything to get votes in Quebec.

Harper is as much a vote-sl.ut as Chretien and Mulroney and Trudeau all were.

Disgraceful

The sad thing is that those quotes are similar to some on AvCanada!

[the_professor]

J.J., I take offense in your blanket condemnation of corporate pilots.

Likewise. If JJ is condeming corporate pilots, he has no idea what he's talking about. If you look the US stats, the corporate safety record is hands-down the best for any segment, including the airlines.

JJ: Pull your head out of your ass.

[Chickaddd]

Looks like they almost made it to the drive-thru, (':D')
sorry couldn't resist

[bandit1]

I've actually stayed in that exact 'suite' while on charter with a bunch of golfers.

Around 350$ a night. Little packets of Tim Horton's coffee with the coffee maker. go figure.

[Liftdump]

J.J. you are a clown period

[invertedattitude]

Yes inverted, it was Trenton, my mistake.
!

Just yankin your chain

[flyinphil]

Again an corporate operator meets their grief !! flight safety trained where money and influence outway any professional objective critia.

Training to standard is the order of the day at both FSI and CAE. If they do not meet the standard, they are not released. Jetport is an airline, not a corporate flight department. They have never been associated with Tim Hortons except through common ownership.

Canadian corporate where they wont hire airline guys.what a sad situation.
ego is a dangerous thing,only by maintain a objective flight department can this be avoided.

Corporate flight departments typically do not hire ex-airline pilots because training is expensive and no one wants to invest in an individual that will skip off as soon as his seniority number permits. They also do not know the job and a large number won't stoop to doing the job. Nothing sad about it as often, ex airline guys are more hinderance than help. Objective means hiring the right person for the job, not hiring someone with a seniority number.

having flown for a previous corporate operator I can atest to the lack of professionalism.

Look in the mirror and you will see who's to blame. If you need a union or association to prove your professionalism, you don't have what it takes to be a good professional Corporate pilot.

good luck to all,but I asume the days spent cleaning and gladhanding shall continue were no one checks the what if,s

Cleaning is for airline pilots. Gladhanding is just a small part of Corporate flying.

hire an professional before the insurance companies put you out of business which is going to happen soon
good luck,but try to be professional next time

That is a valid statement for the entire industry, not just corporate operators.

[wallypilot]

Glad everyone is ok. Too bad for that beautiful new bird.

Hmmm. Their insurance premiums must be getting pretty high.

When I was working out that way a couple of years ago, someone told me they were self insured. Had to sell the Agusta whirly bird to cover the expenses associated with the Astra incident in YHM. Don't know if this is true or not...can anyone confirm?

[Greg87]

Glad everyone is ok. Too bad for that beautiful new bird.

Hmmm. Their insurance premiums must be getting pretty high.

When I was working out that way a couple of years ago, someone told me they were self insured. Had to sell the Agusta whirly bird to cover the expenses associated with the Astra incident in YHM. Don't know if this is true or not...can anyone confirm?

The Eurcocopter was sold due to high maintenance costs and lack of interest, ie nobody was chartering it, and Ron Joyce didn't find it a useful 'tool' for the cost. They now have a EC-135 I believe, though I could have the number wrong, it's been a while since I dealt with it.

[nimbostratus]

so when I read your post about ex airline pilots not willing to do the job I felt compelled to reply

I think Flyinphil was referring to airline pilots that were waiting to be recalled after a furlough. People like yourself still flying after 60 either really really want to continue flying for the love of it or they are still paying out the last three wives. And there is no chance that the airline is going to call you up and tell you they need you back "yesterday".

I have been to FSI severall times since getting into this end of the game and its been my take that the training for corporate seems more about getting the pilot into the seat than maybe meeting the highest standards

I would agree completely with this last comment. However I know an ex-airbus trainer who would say that he felt a great deal of pressure to pass new airline guys (and not so good old airline guys). When an airline says, Pass them or we buy Boeings... hmmm I think you can run into the same problem on both sides of the fence.
Keep in mind these are manufacturer rep trainers. Companies training is only as good as it's training department. I'm sure airlines with established in house training feel no such pressure...