who di-ices cessna at flight school

[costermonger]

But costermonger it is in EVERYONES best interest, you as an instructor get more quality time for PGIs, briefings and flying, the boss gets more billing from his instructors and you get more pay. Certainly is great to have rampies around, but where I work I purposely make my booking start at 0730 before the rampies show up before anyone else shows up so that I can get up in the air before it gets busy and kinda miss the crunch time. Guess who de-icies, fuels and fuels or pulls all the planes out of the hanger then? Me and my student.

Sure, it's in everybody's best interest, but whereas the student's not losing money if the plane's not ready to fly, the school and instructor are. I'm not advocating students treating instructors or rampies like slaves, I'm saying that a decently managed school wouldn't leave this responsibility up for debate.

In your situation, I'd argue that you're making yourself responsible for this stuff getting done, even though your student's involved. Having your student help you pull the plane out of the hangar is one thing, telling your student to pull the plane out while you finish your coffee is entirely different. Same goes with de-icing, fuel, etc. Any reasonably intelligent student will realize that lending a hand will benefit them in a number of ways, but it's ultimately not their job.

[Stinky]

I couldn't imagine telling a busy businessman who is a flight student, "you need to show up a half hour early tommorrow for your lesson, snow is forecast and we need to clean and preheat the aircraft"

As an instructor I provided good service and set a good example by making sure the plane was clean. Usually the student helped but it certainly wasn't required.

[Flying Nutcracker]

I am kind of shocked at the attitude here...

Wouldn't it be in the interest of the working commercial pilot force to educate students in a team ethical attitude way of thinking?

Wouldn't it be good to force feed your future coworkers the idea that attitude is key in this industry??? I am starting to see why there are some lazy, don't care about getting the job done people out there today. It's because for a simple thing as to get a plane deiced, you are all passing the buck on to someone else, because it is to inconvienient for "me"!

The number of times I had to scrape my rented plane because, by golly, it snowed last night, or it dropped to subzero temperature with a lot of moisture. It was a pain in the buttocks, but I wasn't about to call the owner to say "hey! get out there and get my plane ready!". I am flying, I am responsible for getting it done!

Commercially you have a system for this. At my first company, I was the system. I needed deice, well I deice. Now the system is contracted people and I just get a number and get in line.

But people... don't teach students to pass the buck, because they'll be in for a nasty surprise if they are aiming towards a commercial job in this industry!

FN

[THEICEMAN]

I agree with you Flying Nutcracker.....

Attitude is a big part of the game. Remember that many students want to move up eventually and get their instructors rating. So a good attitude is important.
Telling the school to go F themselves, like DA900 so nicely puts it, won't reflect well with the CFI!

Usually the line-man should be the one putting the aircraft in the hangar. But given a scenario where there is no line-man nor hangar, then what???
Tell your instructor to start brushing......I'm sure he is gonna like you very much!

For students who go all the 50K.....you better have a good attitude or your life is gonna get difficult. I have seen some students who have had a bad reputation because of this....

Tell me this DA900....your on the 100nm ppl cross-country trip with your instructor. When you arrive at your destination airport, it starts snowing. You both decide to wait it out....
After it stops snowing, you discover that the airplane needs to be de-iced. What are you gonna do?
Tell your instructor to clean it up, while you go wait inside & read the paper????? Call me where your done????

Students have to be able to de-ice their own airplanes. It's part of aviation.....
What's next..... Instructors doing walk around? Putting in the oil for them? Red carpet to the airplane?

It's shameful that of you compare a school to a car rental company

[DA900]

Wow that is awfully big of you DA900, you would be the kind of student I would charge for every second of my time on the ground. You want me to answer a question then? Well I am in instructor I get paid for it. It took me five minutes of thinking and one minute to tell you, I would like my money for .1 ground brief then. Oh what you are 5min late for you booking? Too bad I have given the airplane away, you owe a no show fee.

Aww poor little 200hr Wonder don't get no respect? Boo Hoo. First of all you are not my instructor. With your great attitude towards students you would have been drop after the first lesson.

Riddle me this, what would you do DA900 if you have an 2000 booking for a night flight and the frost has already set in? Expect the school to send someone out 3 hours after closing, clean your plane up and then wait around while you go flying and then fuel and put it to bed when you get back so you don't get your precious little tootsies cold?

If I'm paying for it! Damn right

Grow up! Renting an airplane is an entirely different ball of wax from a car, so don't even go there. DA900 I expect all of my students to clean the plane of there garbage on return, if the rampie is busy or not around help fuel and put it away. It is common courtesy. I also as an instructor always make it back 10min early to ensure the previous is done for the next student in line. De-icing, as an instructor I will show up early and get the plane ready, and guess what most of the time the student helps out. Usually because that means they get more airtime. The customer is the reason we are there absolutely, but we are not your servants, we are there to make sure that everything runs smoothly. By helping out, it helps you out.

I don't know what the hell you are talking about! Where did I compare a plane and car?

Last of all you dork. Try reading what I wrote. Not once did I ever mention that a instructor should be doing any of that. Get that chip off your shoulder, and grow up. You are not breaking my heart. You may think that being an all powerful instuctor gives you the right to crap on you students, it doesn't. When you come over to the big sand box try pulling any of that shit with your co-workers. I dare you.

[Hedley]

I double dare you.

Wait. What are we daring again?

[rsandor]

You guys keep talking about students & instructors, but what about when you're a private renter?

[Cat Driver]

You guys keep talking about students & instructors, but what about when you're a private renter?

You find another company to rent from.

[dom692222]

what about when there is 1/4 inch of ice on the wing and your boss tells you why didn't you show up earlier to clean the aircraft. when there is no de-icing fluid no hangar, all there is, is a big f@$king broom. the best part is first i am not being paid for the time i spent brooming the ice off."of which i didn't end up doing"for a misserable 1.4 hour flight, when i spent 2 hours brooming outside freezing my christmas balls. thanks but you go freeze. or else pay me for my time that i spend out side, if i go outside. dont you think!

[200hr Wonder]

Wow that is awfully big of you DA900, you would be the kind of student I would charge for every second of my time on the ground. You want me to answer a question then? Well I am in instructor I get paid for it. It took me five minutes of thinking and one minute to tell you, I would like my money for .1 ground brief then. Oh what you are 5min late for you booking? Too bad I have given the airplane away, you owe a no show fee.

Aww poor little 200hr Wonder don't get no respect? Boo Hoo. First of all you are not my instructor. With your great attitude towards students you would have been drop after the first lesson.

Riddle me this, what would you do DA900 if you have an 2000 booking for a night flight and the frost has already set in? Expect the school to send someone out 3 hours after closing, clean your plane up and then wait around while you go flying and then fuel and put it to bed when you get back so you don't get your precious little tootsies cold?

If I'm paying for it! Damn right

Grow up! Renting an airplane is an entirely different ball of wax from a car, so don't even go there. DA900 I expect all of my students to clean the plane of there garbage on return, if the rampie is busy or not around help fuel and put it away. It is common courtesy. I also as an instructor always make it back 10min early to ensure the previous is done for the next student in line. De-icing, as an instructor I will show up early and get the plane ready, and guess what most of the time the student helps out. Usually because that means they get more airtime. The customer is the reason we are there absolutely, but we are not your servants, we are there to make sure that everything runs smoothly. By helping out, it helps you out.

I don't know what the hell you are talking about! Where did I compare a plane and car?

Last of all you dork. Try reading what I wrote. Not once did I ever mention that a instructor should be doing any of that. Get that chip off your shoulder, and grow up. You are not breaking my heart. You may think that being an all powerful instuctor gives you the right to crap on you students, it doesn't. When you come over to the big sand box try pulling any of that shit with your co-workers. I dare you.

I have never once asked my students to do something that I would not and do not do on a regular basis, secondly not everywhere has a line staff so guess who does it all? Yes the instructors. Third I am not an "all powerful instructor" I am just some guy who TC has ordained knowledgeable enough to teach people how to fly, I don't know squat about flying. Thirdly, what big sand box are you talking about?!?!?!?

[costermonger]

So instructors working to ready the aircraft for the bookings they rely on to make a living = the reason there are lazy pilots.


I love AvCanada.

[THEICEMAN]

You guys keep talking about students & instructors, but what about when you're a private renter?

& what.....do you think if there was no line-man availabel, that an instructor would go out & de-ice the airplane for a private renter???

It's a non brainer......the renter better de-ice that airplane or he is going nowhere!

[superiorwhore]

I don't think he means de-icing is a waste of time. It was frustrating as an instructor to have to go out an hour and a half before a lesson to reposition the airplane, pre heat the engine and clean off the snow.
Then you fly with your student fill out the paperwork and drive home. 5 hours work for a lousy $18 and 1 hour of 172 time in your logbook.
Thats the way it is though, tough it out for a year or two and its behind you.

Faaaaaaack. It sucks going to work 2 hours early to de ice your Navajo, herman each engine, clean out the seat backs of KFC bones, load it with pop and chips fly .1 hour for YPM and back and then fill out your paperwork for 92nm round trip.

I just wish I went to Seneca, then all these ideas would be foriegn to me. De-ice? Loading bags? Instructing for welfare wages? No thanks, I'm unionized. Bwahahahahahaha.

Sarcasm aside, Flight school is responsible. If the renter is near by it would be nice of them to help out.

[rsandor]

You guys keep talking about students & instructors, but what about when you're a private renter?

& what.....do you think if there was no line-man availabel, that an instructor would go out & de-ice the airplane for a private renter???

It's a non brainer......the renter better de-ice that airplane or he is going nowhere!

If I know it's gonna be frozen over in the morning, and if I was the kind of person who didn't want to de-ice the plane myself, I simply would not make the booking for 730am!!!

Plan ahead! If your flight school doesn't have linemen to de-ice, find another flightschool or make your booking for later in the day!

[water wings]

wow - are there ever a lot of princesses "working" in aviation these days.
Don't want to de-ice? move farther south...
i'm pretty sure the Esso and Shell guys de-ice their work vehicle all by their little selves. ah well, makes it easier for me to weed out the weakerthans.

phhfftt.

[BoostedNihilist]

.

[Grey_Wolf]

wow - are there ever a lot of princesses "working" in aviation these days

and there are some exceptions ......
(a student's blog)


After an aggravating couple weeks of broken promises, of being stood up, let down and brushed aside by people shirking their responsibilities, I have finally found a decent flight school I can rent airplanes from and with whom I can resume my commercial training without the fear of being left in the dust thanks to mismanagement and careless, selfish unreliability. YES, THANK YOU, there are still some responsible people left in the world capable of operating these sorts of businesses. GAWD, I was getting pissed off about this. I don't appreciate being told, yes, we will be there for you, absolutely, no cheques sign here please! and then seeing that commitment broken the next day. How the HELL do those people hold their jobs? Jesus christ.

Anyway, this afternoon I flew a type (152, haha) checkride with one of the instructors at this new place- what a nice guy. I was depressed and desperate to get this checkout over and done with and get in some flying while the weather was still holding and wasn't really expecting them to have room to fit me into today... but even though this dude had been booked solidly since 7:00am this morning, after chatting a bit he just said, hey, sure, I've got time at 3:30pm - we'll go flying! Omg.

In the air he was cheery, brisk and professional as we did the manoeuvres. No complaining about missing lunch thanks to his damn needy students? No bitching about the management, the cold, about having to gas, de-ice, and haul around planes himself? No instuctor diva whining? He enjoys his job and likes the hectic pace and working with his students? I don't know what I am feeling just now! I think there was a tear in my eye as we did the simulated forced landing.

And afterwards he shook my hand and said I that I flew excellently, performed well at the commercial standard; so, in short, they'll be happy to rent to me there and to take me up as a student to continue my commercial training. I think I floated all the way home.

The downside: the airport is a forty minute drive away OH WHO THE @#$! CARES XD.

[Wilbur]

If I'm renting during the normal business day, dual or solo, I expect the airplane to be gased, clean, and ready to go at the scheduled time.

If I'm taking an airplane before or after hours when nobody from the business is around, then I accept having to do my own deicing, but I still expect the thing to be fueled and otherwise ready.

I follow the golden rule as a consumer - he with the gold makes the rules.

PS: That also applies for Air Cadets on a flying scholorship. The fact their flying is being paid for by DND doesn't make them second class students or cheap labour for the flying school with the contract, unless it has been negotiated into the contract.

[allfiredup]

hey folks plain question. at a flight school who is responsible for having the aircraft ready for the flight. would it be the school, the instructor , the student and instructor. if its the instructor should he/she get paid for wasting their time cleaning the aircraft. wouldn't it have to be the school incharge. making sure that the plane is ready for the instructor and students. anyways i'm lost on this one and need some advice. thanks ppl.

First of all, when is it a as quoted "a waste of time" to deice your a/c. second of all after reading all the posts, seriously how long would it take to deice a 152 or 172? 10 min max oooooh! quit complaining is it really that difficult and if so, if your planning to fly commercially DONT. I cant beleive I actually replied to this baby bull#$#@.

[captain_dc]

If you are an aspiring pilot you need to be competent in de-icing. You should want to learn how to do it properly and practice under supervision of someone that is competent.

If you are paying to rent an aircraft you are paying for it in working order wich would mean not covered in ice.

Your instructor may end up doing it because that may be considered part of their job but you should not pay for that time unless they are actualy instructing you.

[rex sterling]

Water Wings,

I could not agree more. Suck it up Princesses.

[THEICEMAN]

If you are an aspiring pilot you need to be competent in de-icing. You should want to learn how to do it properly and practice under supervision of someone that is competent.

If you are paying to rent an aircraft you are paying for it in working order wich would mean not covered in ice.

Your instructor may end up doing it because that may be considered part of their job but you should not pay for that time unless they are actualy instructing you.

Bingo!

Your suppossed to be there to learn, not to get `car rental`service!

[superiorwhore]

WOW, no wonder all you guys are going straight to Jazz now. You make it sound as though you are gods gifts and that you deserve everything handed to you on a platter.

Guess what, suck it up. This is just the beginning of your career and your already bitching like this, Holy Fack.

Water wings put it best.
Suck it up Princesses!!!