Twotter engine failure

[star]

It will cruise just fine on one engine with that load. I would have went to Pat Bay too (given the proper water conditions) even though it could have reached either Vancouver or Victoria harbour. Why land in the media spotlight when you can go to quiet little Pat Bay. I could just see it on the front page of the Vancouver Province (maybe it was, I don't know). Pat Bay is right beside Victoria airport so there's going to be others to help you out once you get it on the water. Its a nice big dock too. And hey, its closer to the ferry terminal for all the pax who probably won't be wanting to get on another airplane for a while!
About the other incident mentioned here: I think there is a point just after Take off in a loaded up 100 twin otter or a Yellowknife loaded 300 (probably from lift off to about 75ft) where it would be extremely difficult to deal with an engine failure. First of all, a 100's a dog on two engines, and you are airborne near VMC (especially those flap 30 guys and gals). The engine fails, the airplane rolls over and hello stall speed and down you go. We could only practice this at altitude of course, and you always lost a bit of altitude. You have to plan on landing and not flying away and to do this you have to reduce power on the operating engine just enough to keep straight, get your flaps traveling to 30 and land straight ahead. It's easier said than done as the airplane will have instantly started rolling and yawing and by the time you get enough power off it could be too late. I think the key in protecting yourself is getting enough speed before take-off, don't let it fly off at or below VMC and keep building speed. Avoid flap 30 Take-offs where you can (they're not approved). There are no guarantees though.

Good work to the crew at WCA, I know you have a lot to deal with.

['79K20driver]

Not sure where the confusion is. Getting the flaps traveling to 30 after the engine failure is because you have decided to land. If you are deciding to try and climb away then you would select flap 10. The only approved take off flap setting for a TO on floats is 20, although, in the real world it is not uncommon to see guys using 25 or more. This is done to shorten the take off run on a loaded up aircraft in rough water. However, there is a chance you may get in the air below or very near VMC by doing this, especially if you are not all that heavy. Immediately after lift off, flap ten is selected and you accelerate. If the engine failure occurs after or during this flap retraction and you are deciding to put it back on the water, you should select flap 30 in order to land. Trying to land with your flaps at 10 (or even 20 if you where heavy) wouldn't work so well on Caps especially on one engine. Some guys use 25 and even 30 all the time, no matter what their weight. An old ops manager asked me about using flap 30 for take off. I told him is was bad for most situations. He disagreed, and said it was easier on the airframe, shorter take off runs and all. I said, shorter yes, but unless you're really heavy you'll be getting in the air below VMC. He didn't think so but never really had an answer when I asked him just how can more flap make you accelerate to an equal speed in a shorter distance! None of it is an exact science, and you'll probably hear hundreds of opinions on what's right and wrong.

[rightseatwonder]

I was always taught that after liftoff you stay as low as you can (with out going further nose down than the touch down attitude) accelerating until you have Vmc and then climb away while you accelerate to climb speed. the idea being that you will frequently get airborne before Vmc flaps 20 or 30 for those who use it. Dangerous to be airborne before Vmc true, but thats the DHC-6 on floats. Otherwise you go less than flaps 20 and bash around on the water (not a fan)


CLGuy, sad to hear that you've had 3 failures in 4 months at TMA...i was flying the last one 3 yrs prior you mentioned and it was a close one. At least it wasn't 36 degrees and 100% humidity in Pat Bay the other day!

Good job on the WCA crew for getting 'er down safely. PERIOD.

[GroundSpeed]

cpl_atc you obviously have never flown a DHC-6 so please don't make operational comments like why would anyone ever use 30 flaps if the airplane will not climb single engine. If you have flown the Twin Otter you most likely have been in a situation needing the use of 30flap.

[rightseatwonder]

ah such a touchy subject.. Those who can ..... do. Those who cannot...... don't.

Tis why I love the DHC-6 so much. And Ive never even come close to what it can do.

well maybe on floats yes, but never got a chance to really make 'er work...ie. offstrip.

[Phillips66]

great.

[shimmydampner]

My comment was intended to raise the ever-present question of "Why do something that will knowingly endanger your life and the lives of your passengers if the shit hits the fan?"

Umm, well flying period is knowingly endangering your life and the lives of your passengers IF the shit hits the fan. If you want to guarantee that you won't endanger your life, don't get in an aircraft. Or for that matter, your car. Don't cross the street, don't leave your house, where does it end?

Go back to your 172 off of 6000+ foot pavement buddy, and leave the offstrip twotter work to the more-than-capable pros. There's more than a couple situations with more than just a couple airplanes where you have to do something that might not be entirely by the letter of the book to get the job done effectively for scenarios that might be just a little out of the ordinary.

[rightseatwonder]

Yes, DeHavilland specifically PROHIBITS the use of more than flap 20 for takeoffs on floats.

straight from the manual.

As for doing it or not......................... trailing off......



ps I saw a WCA DHC-6 doing some training in september I think it was when I was fishing off sooke...maybe they were training in Pat bay too...we did that there when i was flogging around the coast.

[shimmydampner]

Anyone who isn't a dickhead (see above) may wish to respond to my question.

Easy there bud, what would mom think if she came downstairs and saw you writing words like that for all to see.

[justplanecrazy]

hahahaha.... there are those that understand books and those that understand the real world. Prohibitions in the POH definitely shouldn't be used as standard practice but...

[xsbank]

Operate outside the Limitations and have an 'event,' insurance void - see the thread on insurance, liability and getting your ass sued.

Perhaps you've been doing this forever, perhaps its become SOP, but it will still bite you if you get caught.

Then again, this is a generic rant, I haven't flown one yet.

[N/A]

cpl_atc you are such a douche bag, you seriously have know F* in idea how this industry works!!!!!!! It is very obvious that you have no knowledge or experience with this type of work, or this type of flying, or with the type of airplane.

SO STFU already....... I feel like a retard after reading the BS that you post on here.....stop thinking and acting like you know WTF yer talking about.....cause you dont......


idiot!!!!

[shimmydampner]

So shimmy, do you advise your passengers and your insurance company that you operate the aircraft in a way that is described as prohibited by the POH?

Yes or no?

Of course not, that would be bad, mmmkay? But my "POH" is 55 years old and doesn't have nearly as many prohibitions as these new-fangled ones do, so that leaves me the option of using my experience and common sense to deviate from the suggested normal procedures for ideal conditions if I deem it necessary in abnormal circumstances under less than ideal conditions, which, I get the feeling you don't realize or understand, happen quite often in this line of work. But alas, this is one of the major differences between the flying I'm used to, and the Microsoft Flight Simulator you're used to.

Besides, I don't break any rules, after all rules keep us safe right? Far more than a combination of experience, common sense and ability, right?

On a side not, I'd just like to say congrats to N/A on your first post, and a congrats to cpl_atc for continuing your fine posting tradition, so much so, someone actually took the time and energy to sign up, just to call you a douchebag.

[Cat Driver]

Cat, what's your opinion regarding operating outside limits?

You mean you have to ask me after all these years reading my posts?

When a pilot makes a deliberate decision to operate outside the limits that pilot is playing Russian Roulette with not only her/his career but possibly the safety of the passengers.

We either have operating procedures, rules and laws that we abide by or we should just scrap them.

Taking chances with flight safety by ignoring the rules is arguably dummer than sport fuc.ing without taking proper steps to protect yourself such as wearing one or more condoms ( depending on the assessed risk. ) Sure you can get away with it most of the time but why chance it?



There have I put it in an understandable context?

[xsbank]

Sooooo, lemme get this straight. Are you saying that it is a 'normal' procedure to use 30 flaps for take-off when you operate the TO on floats? Can somebody confirm this? Is this one of those things you do like cracking the flaps in cruise in a Beaver?

If this action breaks a limitation, you are operating without a C of A; you are risking all sorts of devilment if you screw up and like Cat says, you are putting your entire career at risk.

[HuD 91gt]

what exactly is the problem with a flap 30 take off in the TO. Does anyone know why it is a limitation?

[justplanecrazy]

dp

[justplanecrazy]

On a side not, I'd just like to say congrats to N/A on your first post, and a congrats to cpl_atc for continuing your fine posting tradition, so much so, someone actually took the time and energy to sign up, just to call you a douchebag.

HAHAHAHA... it's good to see I'm not the only one he irritates.

The point is that what is laid out in paper is often not practical in the real world. Say you're on approach for a one way strip too low and boxed in to abort. You get a good updraft and despite full flaps, aren't going to make the field. The POH prohibits full flaps and a forward slip do to possible tail stalls (not referring to DH6) but if you don't do it you're going to meet the rock at the end of the runway. So you look at your odds of smacking the rock 99% and the odds of a tail stall .001%. The book says don't but the guy with a little bit of common sense says do.

In this case a 30degree flap take off shouldn't be used. On the other hand, you get those rough days with big swells at the end of your regular take off run and common sense says getting airborne and avoiding those swells is far more important than the off chance of being airborne below Vmc with an engine failure. If you're in the run and need to get off now, dropping another 10 degrees might not be such a bad idea. Again not an everyday operation but one you might encounter a few times in your career.

Yes you're playing russian roulette and putting your ass on the line liability wise if things go wrong but if the other option virtually guarantees something going wrong, then maybe bending the rules once in a very rare situation isn't such a dumb thing but just good logic. Kinda like the drunk passenger deciding to take the controls rather than let the plane fly into the ground, when the PIC suddenly keels over dead.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Is aborting the take off an option?

[xsbank]

Justplanecrazy, there is a huge difference from doing whatever it takes to save your ass and whatever's attached to it and from operating 'normally' outside the limitations.

Also, maybe if that strip you describe is so hazardous, you might just say no? Maybe you should have taken a better look at the water before you went in there?

Yes, most of the time you get away with it. Yes, you can get away with breaking the rules for years and years............. then one day you don't.

One thing we used to recite over and over again to each other when we were fire-bombing, "they're just trees, right?" Its not worth donating your life to get something done RIGHT NOW when you can likely come back tomorrow and get it done safely.

[Cat Driver]

The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

You can learn to fly in hours, it takes years to learn when not to.

['79K20driver]

A responsible and professional pilot doesn't even ask this question: "Should I go to flaps 30 on takeoff because of the swells?"

A responsible pilot says: "We can't get out until these swells subside enough for a flaps 20 takeoff, period. End of story."

It could be a long story.... if they're the kind of swells that last for days and your customers have run out of food at their camp, and your boss is all over you to get the trip done because he is under pressure from the Pres. because the company is about to lose the contract because the competition is more than willing to go, and for cheap. You see, its just not that simple.
I do agree in a sense here, but you are taking a very black and white stance in what is actually quite a gray area for this particular airplane. This whole job is about risk management. I personally don't feel there is much risk by sneaking out extra flap on the Twin Otter when conditions warrant it....heavy and rough water. Of course there is a point where you have to say, "its too rough, or I'm too heavy for these water conditions. Too risky, even with a little extra flap, I'd better find some better water or just go back to the dock." Again...risk management.
I doubt you will find any veteran TO pilots that stick hard and fast to the flap 20 rule. It's just not practical, or even safe, for all situations.
I think you have to look a why they made the limitation. On wheels you take off with 10. It could be they just didn't want you doing that on floats simply because it just doesn't work with Cap floats. As well, perhaps they didn't want you to take off with 30 because they felt you would get in the air too slow and make dealing and engine failure too difficult. Maybe they just split the dif, and said 20 it is. You also have to remember that these are not detented settings. It's not just settings of flap 0, 10, 20, 30 and full on this plane. There is an infinite range of settings between 0 and 37.5 degrees that you can set. So you would think that there is a range around 20 degrees that would work depending on weight and planned take off speed. Even when you do select flap 20, you are probably only getting something that sort of resembles flap 20, as the indicators are not always correct (if you know what flap 20 is supposed to look like, you can look out the window, but even then, is it 20, 22, 18?).
Its unfortunate that deHavilland never addressed this issue in later years. They sort of took a lazy-mans approach to it. They came up with a blanket rule, where perhaps they should have looked at different flap settings for different weights and take off speeds, ...like on other planes! Now, its just something else the lawyers and other know-it-alls can jump on.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

79K20, good post.

I do agree in a sense here, but you are taking a very black and white stance in what is actually quite a gray area for this particular airplane. This whole job is about risk management. I personally don't feel there is much risk by sneaking out extra flap on the Twin Otter when conditions warrant it....heavy and rough water. Of course there is a point where you have to say, "its too rough, or I'm too heavy for these water conditions. Too risky, even with a little extra flap, I'd better find some better water or just go back to the dock." Again...risk management.

Exactly, it's all about risk management and if we look at the level of risk based on the time frame using 30 degrees of flap to get a TO on floats in the air due to swells is far less risk in my opinion than flying IFR at night over the mountains in a single engine airplane.

[justplanecrazy]

Pretty strong words for someone who's never spent a significant time in the real world.

[Doc]

Good job done by all. When I have an engine pack it in (and I've had more than most of you!) I simply put down the newspaper, toss another log on the fire, spin in a couple of rotations on the rudder trim, and off I go! I always pick a speed at which I will give it up, and go land. I'll never go below that speed to try to maintain, because I know it will not lead to a successful outcome.

WOW! I've never seen a thread depart the fix this fast! How do you all deal with your A.D.D.? Did any of you actually get through school?