Vsse

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:57 pm

I am not familiar with the required training syllabus.

Is a VMC demo part of the required training or part of the check ride?

If it is then I guess it should be done, though for the life of me I dont know why. If not then why is it being done?

There is two places this should be done. In a simulator where you can match the configuration precisely and not get hurt, and in the classroom where you can hopefully get it across to the new multi pilot that when you lose an engine, that speed is not a place you want to be.

It is interesting that pretty much all us old guys think it is a dumb idea and all the young types here think it is perfectly OK. Gotta wonder sometimes.

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:57 pm

THEICEMAN wrote:
flight instructor wrote:What CAT explains is: when you have an engine failure, stay far away from vmc.

Now practising vmc demo with a competent flight instructor is a normal exercise in a multi engine.

To recover: power back to idle, decrease pitch.

When practising vmc demo recover at the first indication of one of the folowing: the stall warning, buffet, loss of directional control.

Don' t try alone but with an experienced multi instructor with experience regarding vmc demo.

Hedley says that at high altitude the stall will occur first ( less air density, rudder less efficient, not able to loose the directional control first). So just recover as mentioned above.

Vmc demo is not a dangerous exercice if practiced by competent instructors.

Vmc demo is part of the multi training and help you to understand why a multi COULD me more dangerous in case of engine failure than a single engine airplane.

One more thing: if we speak about the speed, vmc doesn' t exist, VMCA is a calculated speed by the manufacturer, the red line on your airspeed indicator (with critical engine, the worse CG, gross weight...).

VMC demo is an exercise
VMCA is a speed (red line on your airspeed indicator)
VSSE concerns only the flight instructor, and nothing affects it. (it' s already calculated depending on VMCA, and VMCA is the worse highest speed you can have because critical engine, worse CG, gross weight...).

On some heavy airplane you can find a VMCG, it applies on the runway, a speed at wich you loose control during the take off roll if an engine failure occurs.

Have a good flight

Exactly what I am trying to say....practise VMc demo with competent flight instructor.

With engine failure, you should not be anywhere near vmc. At worst Vyse.....that's my opinion.....your choice to agree or disagree.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:01 pm

Actually,

I just read Hedley's link. Seems it is not a required part of the curriculum.
It also stated if you do it to exercise extreme caution.

Interesting that flight instructor wrote that it was part of the training, and that it was safe. Perhaps they should read the link also.

I dont think I am the only one here who thinks that if it is not required, why the hell are people doing it.

I think an experienced and qualified instructor would demonstrate his superior knowledge and experience by not indulging in this[/quote]

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:04 pm

It is interesting that pretty much all us old guys think it is a dumb idea and all the young types here think it is perfectly OK. Gotta wonder sometimes.

That's not true at all. I've heard of flight instructors with 30 years experience asking their students to bring the speed straight to the red line.

This should not be an argument over which method is right or wrong. Both have their way of doing things & both work......
Depends on the school you go to & what their SOP says..

Interesting that flight instructor wrote that it was part of the training, and that it was safe. Perhaps they should read the link also.

If you have a competent flight instructor who has been doing it for years, why not?
Of you course instrcutors must use extreme caution. Shoudl they not use the same for spins? That's part of the course for the PPL.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:06 pm

Vmc demo is part of the multi training and help you to understand why a multi COULD me more dangerous in case of engine failure than a single engine airplane.

Well there you go, once again I was wrong I had no idea that VMC is actually demonstrated as a normal part of teaching people to fly twin engine airplanes.

I guess I had better go to a flight school and get retrained so I will be a better pilot.

The more I read this forum the more I realize just how incompetent some of us older pilots are not having been blessed with instructors who could have taught us how to really be good pilots.

Oh well I guess that is progress.

Jeses I sure hope my clients don't get wind of how incompetent I am because I wouldn't have any students willing to hire me.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:08 pm

A flight school with SOP's on multi engine training? SOP's that include dangerous and unrequired exercises. I give up Iceman, you win.

And some of people here wonder why us old guys find it somewhat frustrating with new FO's. It is not required for the ride or as part of the training.
It is tough to try and share your knowledge and experience with someone who is willing to argue that it is ok to do a completely unnecessary and dangerous thing.

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:12 pm

This exercise is not required by transport Canada. So if you have never practiced it in you local flight school, well I guess you are not the only one...

However this exercice is required by (but not only) the FAA, and for me a good multi rating SHOULD include vmc demo. You have to find a good flight school with an instructor confortable with the exercise.

Before VMC demo, you should receive an extensive breifing about the exercise and about the multi engine aerodynamics with engine out.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:14 pm

xactly what I am trying to say....practise VMc demo with competent flight instructor.

Then by default I am incompetent, because I do not and will not demo VMC in a multi engine airplane.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:15 pm

This exercise is not required by transport Canada. So if you have never practiced it in you local flight school, well I guess you are not the only one...

If you are referring to me, I have done it....in a full motion simulator.
But then I got my multi engine rating about 35 years ago.

As to Cats suggestion to go back to flight school. Love to, Cat, but darned if I can figure out how to judge the experience, comfort level, and competency of an instructor. Maybe ask them?

[/quote]

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:20 pm

trey kule wrote:A flight school with SOP's on multi engine training? I give up Iceman, you win.

And some of people here wonder why us old guys find it somewhat frustrating with new FO's. It is not required for the ride or as part of the training.
It is tough to try and share your knowledge and experience with someone who is willing to argue that it is ok to do a completely unnecessary and dangerous thing.

oh boy.....here we go again!

I have a nice big S.O.P in my bag, that has the name of the flight school & aircraft.
(Cargair, Multi/ IFR/ Pa-23 Aztec)

In it, explains that your instructor will give a demonstration of VMC.
If you have a problem with it, please visit http://www.cargair.com & file a complaint!

VMC demonstration in flight are done at many schools today.

& now you wonder why us young FO's find it frustarting with older captains!

However this exercice is required by (but not only) the FAA, and for me a good multi rating SHOULD include vmc demo. You have to find a good flight school with an instructor confortable with the exercise.

100%

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:21 pm

As to Cats suggestion to go back to flight school. Love to, Cat, but darned if I can figure out how to judge the experience, comfort level, and competency of an instructor. Maybe ask them?

We don't have to ask them they are quite eager to tell us trey kule.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:23 pm

& now you wonder why us young FO's find it frustarting with older captains!

That would not be a problem with me THEICEMAN because you would not last very long as my FO.

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:23 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
xactly what I am trying to say....practise VMc demo with competent flight instructor.
Then by default I am incompetent, because I do not and will not demo VMC in a multi engine airplane.

Not at all...as I said before, I value your judgement since experience is priceless..

But the truth is, VMC demo's in flight are done at many schools.

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:24 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
& now you wonder why us young FO's find it frustarting with older captains!
That would not be a problem with me THEICEMAN because you would not last very long as my FO.

Are you sure about that? You never know, I could be your FO sometime in the future & you would not know it....
nor would I

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:24 pm

Cat:

I think you got that bang on as far as the posts here go, but I am willing to bet there really are some good instructors out there who simply are not posting. It would be refreshing to hear from them.

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:28 pm

Then by default I am incompetent, because I do not and will not demo VMC in a multi engine airplane.

Nobody on avcanada can say that the very experienced CAT is incompetent. We always learn from your posts.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:30 pm

[quote]Are you sure about that? You never know, I could be your FO sometime in the future & you would not know it....
nor would I

][quote]

It could happen.. I should be able to tell it is you by the conversation:

"well, it is a positioning flight, and we have no pax on board, so lets just do a little VMC demo on this critter while there is just the two of us on board"

after all " one time....in flight school......"

just jerking your chain iceman.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:32 pm

Cat:

I think you got that bang on as far as the posts here go, but I am willing to bet there really are some good instructors out there who simply are not posting. It would be refreshing to hear from them.

I know there are, they are just smarter than you or I because they see the futility of arguing with those who know it all.

I am involved with a project now where I will be an advisor to a regulatory body that are setting new standards for flight training.

By debating with this group here it gives me reason to try and do my best to keep some sanity in this industry because I fear that we have some very serious problems in flight training. And if we can't keep manufacturing smart airplanes like for instance the Airbus that will not let the pilots kill themselves by departing controlled flight due to some idiot losing control of it the industry is fuc.ed.

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:37 pm

trey kule:

when I say "you" in my post:

You have to find a good flight school with an instructor confortable with the exercise.

I don' t mean that the advice is for you, even if I have posted just after you.

When I say "you" it concerns the candidate for a multi rating, the students.

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:47 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Cat:

I think you got that bang on as far as the posts here go, but I am willing to bet there really are some good instructors out there who simply are not posting. It would be refreshing to hear from them.
I know there are, they are just smarter than you or I because they see the futility of arguing with those who know it all.

I am involved with a project now where I will be an advisor to a regulatory body that are setting new standards for flight training.

By debating with this group here it gives me reason to try and do my best to keep some sanity in this industry because I fear that we have some very serious problems in flight training. And if we can't keep manufacturing smart airplanes like for instance the Airbus that will not let the pilots kill themselves by departing controlled flight due to some idiot losing control of it the industry is fuc.ed.

Oh Cat c'mon......I don't have anywhere near the experience you have, but I highly doubt that VMC demonstrations is the soruce of serious problems in flight training.

Many of these instructors who give VMC demos in the Montreal area, are the one's who

see the futility of arguing with those who know it all

....as you say.

And if we can't keep manufacturing smart airplanes like for instance the Airbus that will not let the pilots kill themselves by departing controlled flight due to some idiot losing control of it the industry is fuc.ed.

So you think that by giving vmc demos, we are encouraging pilots to fly at the red line & loose control?

Flight instructors are so poorly paid it is highly unlikely many would be teaching at a FTU if they were very highly experienced pilots....unless they have some other issues that they can't find a job flying for a living wage.....
....then again maybe all their instructors are high time retired pilots.......

There are some instructors I know, who only teach because they love it. They are rare, but they wan to pass on what they know......even if it means doing it for free..
I have had the pleasure of working with these people.

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:54 pm

Just to be clear enough:

VMC demonstration is an exercice done by some of the Canadian flight school, but not required by Transport Canada.

In the U.S (and in a lot of countries), you are required to demonstrate an understanding of VMC, the consequences of operating below VMC, the control pressures required to maintain control of the airplane, and the procedures to recover from a loss of directional control.

This is REQUIRED by the FAA. THAT' S NOT DANGEROUS.

This is practiced by THOUSANDS of student pilot down south and around the world RIGHT NOW (and for ages).

In U.S, ALL the multi engine pilot have practiced this exercice.

And this is part of the PTS. They have done that for YEARS, and no more crash than in the Canadian flight school.

I say again, this is an exercise, to be practiced for training purpose. This is not normal flight with passenger on board, without flight instructor.

Spins are part of the CPL, but we don' t practice them during a normal flight, don' t we?

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:04 pm

flight instructor wrote:Just to be clear enough:

VMC demonstration is an exercice done by some of the Canadian flight school, but not required by Transport Canada.

In the U.S (and in a lot of countries), you are required to demonstrate an understanding of VMC, the consequences of operating below VMC, the control pressures required to maintain control of the airplane, and the procedures to recover from a loss of directional control.

This is REQUIRED by the FAA. THAT' S NOT DANGEROUS.

This is practiced by THOUSANDS of student pilot down south and around the world RIGHT NOW (and for ages).

In U.S, ALL the multi engine pilot have practiced this exercice.

And this is part of the PTS. They have done that for YEARS, and no more crash than in the Canadian flight school.

I say again, this is an exercise, to be practiced for training purpose. This is not normal flight with passenger on board ans without flight instructor.

Spins are part of the CPL, but we don' t practice them during a normal flight, don' t we?

Agreed!

Going back to my old books. I see that VMC demos are in the flight test guide.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:05 pm

In the U.S (and in a lot of countries), you are required to demonstrate an understanding of VMC, the consequences of operating below VMC, the control pressures required to maintain control of the airplane, and the procedures to recover from a loss of directional control.

Are you suggesting that if my friend the TC inspector had been trained properly he and the other pilot would not have died when that Twin Comanche departed controlled flight and spun in in the procedure turn flying an engine out approach?

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:14 pm

For example, on some turboprop (yes I have done VMC demo on a Turboprop aswell), you can practice VMC demo, refer to your POH, they give you the procedure for TRAINING. (beechcraft for example).

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:17 pm

Are you suggesting that if my friend the TC inspector had been trained properly he and the other pilot would not have died when that Twin Comanche departed controlled flight and spun in in the procedure turn flying an engine out approach?

I just suggest that VMC demo is a normal EXERCISE.

I am not an accident expert, I have no idea about what happened in the one you describe.