End of the 208B

[black hole]

I heard that the RCMP dropped their flrrt of vans because of the icing issue.

Bh

[flightdude1]

as for that F28 comment a few replies back, that had nothing to do with the aircraft's performance...the know it all Captain "didn't" want to waste time deicing and just decided to take off...Just another case of pilot error. I guess the Air Florida accident should make the B732 be uncertified for icing eh?

[Cat Driver]

.the know it all Captain "didn't" want to waste time deicing and just decided to take off.

Please back up that statement with some background facts....that George was a " know it all captain" .

[WileyCoyote]

3.1 Findings as to Causes and Contributing Factors

The aircraft departed at a weight exceeding the maximum take-off weight and the maximum weight for operation in icing conditions.

Looks like there was alot of other factors at work than just icing...

[Widow]

Yeah, did you check out HOW it got to be overweight?

[flightdude1]

Yes, Toronto had their tare weights wrong, so they were out a few hundred pounds....I'm sure there are more weight related reasons

[Doc]

A few hundred pounds? On an F28? Probably not a contributing factor.

[flightdude1]

I couldn't agree more with you DOC, however, a few hundred pounds, on the van that crashed in YWG, was a contributing factor (Which I believe Widow was speaking of)

[1000 HP]

Hey Doc,

I maybe didn't explain myself well enough. When I commented "didn't fly at all", I was referring to an attempted take-off, with 5 drums of heating oil onboard, fuel for 150 miles plus reserve, after de-icing the wing completely with "the red stuff". It was snowing heavily. The snow was wet and even though I was on the water taxiing for less than 2 minutes, the airplane got on the step, but would not get airborne due to the wing contamination aquired during that 2 minutes (or less). It was my first real experience with the 208 wing and how it likes to be clean. I prudently taxied back to the dock and drank coffee for the rest of the day. I would have as you suggested, consumed beer, but due to location, there was none available.

I do like the machine however, and respect it's capabilities. It is fast, comfortable, and modern. I only wish that it had no passenger seats

Every airplane type out there has likely been involved in a disaster. If all types involved in crashes were banned, all those over-priced lawyers would have to do "hike-in" fishing trips....

[flightdude1]

1000hp, that looks like selkirk air's otter on the dirty river......

[kingeddie]

Fast trackig certifications happens .. When the AS350 came to north america in the 70s , It was given cold weather certifiication based on the fact that it already had it done in France .. Southern France doesnt get cold however certification was issued to -40 .. A few years ago after a rash of cold weather incidents it was learned that the Astar had NEVER been tested . The french authourities Grandfathered it in on old testing done on the Gazelle and deemed it similar in design .. Cold weather testing was officially done in 2002 by TC for the forst time after the helicopter had been operating in Canada for almost 30 years .. Another scary fact is that for certification the Emergency Procedures Section of the AFM is tested at standard ISA + 15 . So in fact the emergencies are not certified in conjunction with the temperature limits .. And there is no onus on the manufacturer to guarantee the ac ability to perform emergency procedures at the limit in this case -40.

Scary

KE

[linecrew]

I heard that the RCMP dropped their flrrt of vans because of the icing issue.

Bh

That is incorrect. There are still three that are registered to the RCMP according to the Civil Aircraft Register.

[wallypilot]

Guess they should have banned the F28, as well...didn't it go down in icing(dryden, wasn't it?), killing way more people in one crash than the caravan has killed in its whole life.

That was a bit of a different sitaution.

geez people....obviously....sarcasm does not come through in typed text at all.....my point is that the public doesn't understand the situation and that there is the potential for the caravan to get banned, when really it is the operators that need to better understand its limits. There are many things in aviation history that were not understood well and many lives were lost due to that. As knowledge and experience grew in the aviation community, new procedures were adopted to make things safer. The same thing can be done with the caravan. But because of a public that sees the problems rooted in the aircraft, rather than in the manner it is operated, we risk losing a very successful and safe(when used in a prudent manner) part of the fleet.

And to the poster (I think it was Doc) that mentioned that the Van does well what it was originally intended for: pavement to pavement for Fedex....well it was designed to be worked 12 months a year....and many months of the year in much of the US, icing is a huge factor. So i don't konw that that statement is entirely accurate.

[safetywatch]

Some good comments and interesting thoughts, but really missing the point.

The issue is quite simple. The FAA requires a plane to demonstrate that it can fly 14.7 miles in icing conditions. The lawsuit alleges Cessna conducted 5 shorter test flights, added the total miles together, and told the FAA that the plane had met the 14.7 mile standard. And on the day of the ice testing, the spectrometer was broken, but instead of fixing it, Cessna had the pilot estimate the size of the ice particles by looking out the window at 150 miles per hour and estimating the size of ice particles down to the size of a human hair. That is called fraud if it is true and is a criminal issue. You get jailed for things like that.

The same is true for the engine reliability. Its not an issue whether you think a PT6 is a great engine or anything else. You set a reliability level for the powerplant and then it turns out it isn't being met. Not my opinion, but measured fact. So now you have an aircraft that doesn't meet regulations on two counts and it crashes. You can blame who you like, but the very simple facts would be very clear to any jury.

The interesting thing in all this is as usual Transport Canada haven't acted in any shape or form. These people really don't get it.

[safetywatch]

Oh and by the way, the Auditor General of Canada is about to publish an audit on Transport Canada - won't that be interesting?!!! But that is another topic for another day!

[rd1331]

That whole YWG thing is a joke. Who ever did the investigation is a moron.

2+2 =4 people

The aircraft was in a Warm hanger, hot soaked. Went outside into cold temperatures with precipitation. Every other airplane was de-icing. How do you take a warm airplane into negative temperatures with precipitation and not get ground contamination. Little science for you. When something cold like snow hits something hot like a hot soaked airplane it melts. Then the cold temperatures will refreeze the now melted snow.

The aircraft was overweight, and there was moderate to severe icing reported around the airport. The pilot still went. Even if the aircraft hadn't had ground contamination, why the heck are they flying into moderate to severe icing. The POH says flight into known moderate icing is prohibited. But I guess they knew better and went anyways, or did they?

This latest accident may be the only accident I know of that may have been caused by icing, but its too early to tell. When all this icing stuff came out I was very worried about flying the van, when i was on it, into icing conditions. So I studied all the accident reports. Guess what you can find out if you study them. People taking off overloaded, with ice on the airplane, and into moderate to severe icing conditions. Well common people. Abbostford, aircraft too off with ice on the wings. Ontario, aircraft too off way over gross weight. YWG, look above.

If you follow its limitations, which cessna publishes, the aircraft reacts fine to ice. If you don't, you are a test pilot, and what happens is your own responsibility. When will people start taking responsibility for there actions.

[Hedley]

Anyone here remember the witchhunt (complete
with re-certification) of the Piper Malibu?

Anyone remember the conclusions?

[Over the Horn]

Just wondering how many of the posters on this thread actaully fly the Van or have flown one?

[desertduster]

OK, after watching the Caravan bashing on this board for a couple years, here is my opinion. Follow the AFM.
Respect the weight that cessna publishes for flight into known icing.

Like all airplanes, stay out of moderate icing, freezing rain (nothing is certified for freezing rain)

Take off only when you can assure the wings are clean (like all airplanes)

When in cruise, take the little dial on the Airspeed indicator, and set it at the speed you were cruising, if this starts to drop while in icing conditions, it is a VERY good time to get out.

Now this is where this airplane is a little tricky, you are very limited in altitude so getting out may be harder that with the turbine twins. Quite often the you only have a few thousand feet between the granite and the the altitude in witch the airplane does not climb at a rate fast enough to get out of it. This is were very good planning has to come in. Compare that to say a BE 30 or similar and in two minutes you are above everything and your fellow coworker sitting beside you is pouring you a coffee.

Good airplane, would fly it any day ( well almost).
fly safe

[flightdude1]

I fly the van, but choose to stay out of the van arguments.......I know how it handles, I know how it performs, so I know when NOT to go, or turn around....I just enjoy watching everyone argue....

[Four1oh]

I just don't understand how a plane that's apparently so bad in ice can be certified IFR.

[Snowgoose]

Known Ice and IFR are separate certifications IIRC

[J31]

How come the ATR didn't loose it's papers to fly in icing? I'm curious.

Stay safe out there!

Dave

It did and most ATR's are now flying in the deep south. After testing and new boots it regained the icing certification.

[Over the Horn]

Its good to see there's at least 2 people qualified to comment on the Van on this thread. Now how many people are talkin out of their asses!!

[Four1oh]

Known Ice and IFR are separate certifications IIRC

don't worry Snow, I am aware of the difference between the 2, yet for the most part you can't have one without the other. Does that clear it up for you?