Is flight training in crisis...

[MichaelP]

In the UK we didn't learn Attitudes and Movements, we learned Effects of Controls, it was similar.

This is a very important lesson... The BIG mistake is trying to teach it in the classroom!
It is better taught out at the aeroplane where you can touch the controls and explain with your hands or a model aeroplane in your hand in a visual manner.
90% of learning occurs through the eyes.
I do this lesson almost every time I do a Fam Flight as we do the walk around together... And the walk around is another very important lesson in itself!

[C-GGGQ]

In the UK we didn't learn Attitudes and Movements, we learned Effects of Controls, it was similar.

This is a very important lesson... The BIG mistake is trying to teach it in the classroom!
It is better taught out at the aeroplane where you can touch the controls and explain with your hands or a model aeroplane in your hand in a visual manner.
90% of learning occurs through the eyes.
I do this lesson almost every time I do a Fam Flight as we do the walk around together... And the walk around is another very important lesson in itself!

*ding ding ding* we have a winner. Attitudes and movements SHOULD be taught at the plane and thats where I do it, thats how my class 1 did it. It IS the most important lesson, I will NEVER skimp on this lesson and I make sure the student understands it completely before moving on. Yes, I am a dreaded Class 4 instructor. I know just enough to know I know jack shit. (which is more than some class 3's I have met unfortunately). I have met instructors whose heads were so far up there ass and only thinking of getting that right seat on a turbine that the students suffer. Do I want to instruct forever? No not really, not enough money in it and I want to get into a steady schedule with decent benefits. Do I think of this as a stepping stone cause I can't get anything else? Thats not how I see it though if you want to be technical yeah an instructor position is one of the only flying positions people seem willing to give me with the amount of experience I have.

But for a CPL or multi-IFR you need an experienced IFR rated pilot with some real IFR experience not someone with 240 hours and little knowledge to pass on!!

why would you need an IFR rated pilot for a CPL?

For example,I believe that I know how to operate VORs/ADFs and what is related to them(Holds,approaches,navigation,interceptions),of course from self-study and practice on sims at home (I know nothing fancy but it helps prepare for the real thing in the plane and saves $$), but when my instructor is unsure of how to use the damn VOR and I have to correct him/her then I have the right to be pissed off because for #1-My hard earned dollars are being wasted and #2-I feel unsafe with him/her and being used to put few lines on their logbooks!!..

For one thing believing you know how to operate them and knowing how are two different things, but lets assume you know how to use them have studied hard and have a good grasp of the material. If your instructor really does not know how to use the VOR and can't teach you how, he is not doing his job. Tell the CFI, and get a new instructor. I may be a fairly freshly IFR rated pilot and have only a handful of IMC flight time ( i did not get the IMC during training it did come later) but I know how to use a freakin VOR and ADF. Would I want to be teaching someone to fly IFR? Not right now, I can fly IFR (cause honestly getting your IFR rating and flying IFR are two different things) but I'd want to do some major studying and some refresher training, on exactly how TC wants it taught. Would someone with thousands of hours IFR know how to fly IFR? Yes. Could they teach you to pass your test? Not necessarily. My grandfather has 15000 hours and flew King Airs for a corperate company for the better part of his career. He lost his medical a few years ago and by the time he got it back his IFR had completely lapsed he studied up and went to rewrite. He actually got a better mark than I did, but his exact words to me were "that was the most hateful test i have ever taken. And can you tell me what the hell that supposedly had to do with IFR flying?" Someone highly experienced in IFR flight is only an advantage if they know what transport wants you to know for your test.

[Kelowna Pilot]

To answer the original question...

Flight training is only in 'crisis' if the accident rate starts to sky rocket and inadequate training is proven to be the culprit.

My two cents...

All flight training (except PPLs and Rec stuff) should be taken over by the airlines and charter companies. The instructors should come from retiring guys who actually know something.

Most importantly, the main motive should be to train competent pilots, and not the current system where the main motive is to make money.


I'm sorry, when I did my CPL way back it when, it was a farcical joke. The caliber of the staff and management was so low, not because they wanted to be bad, but because the economics of flight training are such that it kinda forces otherwise good people to do bad things, and cut corners.

[buck82]

Sorry to burst your bubble... But good people DON'T do bad things and DON'T cut corners.

[sigmet77]

You can't find good flight instructors because:
1. Flight schools are expanding like crazy, therefore more FI's are needed.
2. Non-resident training is skyrocketing across the country so expect it to get even worse.
3. There are a lot better paying jobs available now and/or
4. There are more exciting jobs available.

It is a doulbe edged sword that results from the increase in training in Canada. It is good for the economy but also strains aviation resources. Plus it, along with fuel costs etc., is raising the cost for Joe Citizen to go get a licence.

[Kelowna Pilot]

You can't find good flight instructors because:
1. Flight schools are expanding like crazy, therefore more FI's are needed.
2. Non-resident training is skyrocketing across the country so expect it to get even worse.
3. There are a lot better paying jobs available now and/or
4. There are more exciting jobs available.

It is a doulbe edged sword that results from the increase in training in Canada. It is good for the economy but also strains aviation resources. Plus it, along with fuel costs etc., is raising the cost for Joe Citizen to go get a licence.

I disagree.

You can't find the best instructors because:

1. The best people don't go into aviation anymore. The smart ones go where the money and stability is. Frankly, after seeing what happened in the aviation industry in the last 10 years (and in particular the outright theft of pilot pensions in the United States, which was just criminal), it's small wonder anyone would go into aviation these days.

2. The notion that high time instructors are necessarily better instructors is false. I recall some of my past instructors were very high time, and in retrospect I wouldn't allow them to teach my dog. This was because they didn't want to be there, they were burnt out and cynical and bitter, and one was just angry at life in general. Real fun to be around. One of the best instructors I had was a Class IV.

3. The truly top quality instructors don't want to work for peanut wages instructors usually make. This is why in my view the airlines should assume responsibility for training and the instructors should come from the airlines and be paid airline wages. I know that sounds nice in theory, but it would be a needless expense for the airlines given that the current system still more or less works.

[sigmet77]

Also good points Kelowna Pilot.

[Cat Driver]

So now that everyone agrees that flight instructing at the FTU level is 21st. century slavery what is the answer?

[MichaelP]

What is the answer???

To get into this is to invite depression... Depression can cost you your medical, and then you can't do your job!

It's best to enjoy your flying when this awful winter is over, time passing as the World passes below your wings, and try not to get bitter with your old age.
Like sailing ships, we can leave our troubles behind for a while.
Poor weather gives us too much time to post our moans on this forum.

[Cat Driver]

The best solution would be for the FTU's to have to raise wages because no one will work for peanuts.

[MichaelP]

I'm doing my best,offering more than the average, but we're just a start-up school.
Even if we offered $30k a year and benefits, it will take many years for Canadian aviation to recover from the pit it's attitudes have led it into.

It's interesting that one customer for a Diamond aircraft has gone to another school because it's been established a long time... But customers don't realise that the staff at the established schools is often very low in experience because no-one stays long.
This new-school actually has a lot of experience!

[Cat Driver]

MichaelP:

Your situation is very difficult due to the fact that the other FTU's are stuck in the race to the bottom to see who can undercut their competition.

Of all the factors you must over come that will be the most difficult.

[MichaelP]

I charged £5 an hour more than the 'competition' for the rental of my Condors, but people flew those Condors more than the 'competition's' whole fleet of 14 aircraft, why? Because I think I had a better attitude and treated people well.

There's a mutiny in the works at one of the schools on this field... Yes, the Canadian business model is to undercut, to try to put each other out of business by surviving below the bottom line longer!
They are so stupid!
It's not so much the price you charge, it's what you offer.

I think of all those stupid little airlines that have gone out of business at CYVR even though they did less maintenance to save costs, and paid or were paid by their pilots poorly.
Europeans using their services would have gladly paid $25 more on a ticket to fly in properly maintained aeroplanes with happy crew members.

When you look at the state of the Club's Cessna's out on the ramp here and compare them to the condition of our well looked after Diamond, there's no competition. Pay a little more and get a lot more!
I won't skimp on maintenance... My Condors were kept in good condition even though they were classic wood and fabric.
The Katana's are being brought back to as new condition, and at $107 + GST/PST an hour solo with no fuel surcharge I think they'll be competitive.
I am impressed by the economy of the DA20-C1 as well, and so even though this aeroplane has to use 100LL I think we'll avoid a surcharge on it as well.

I like the Eurpopean idea of everything included, I hate this Canadian thing of so much an hour, "oh that's good", then extra after extra after extra! People get really upset when they find they are charged a $15 surcharge as well as tax upon tax.
I used to like the VAT because it could only be charged once! Here GST can be charged on top of GST several times, it shouldn't be but it is!
With VAT I had to claim the VAT already paid and then charge it on what I sold...

Another thing I did in England was charge for air time, takeoff to landing, and not flight time.
I wanted the engines warmed and the checks done without 'hurry I'm paying for this' on the renter's mind.
Here I accept the Hobbs time even though I hate the Hobbs meter with a passion!
We should trust people, and if we trust them they suffer a certain guilt if they try to rip you off... Very few people ripped me off, in fact the reverse was true!

[Kelowna Pilot]

Even if we offered $30k a year and benefits, it will take many years for Canadian aviation to recover from the pit it's attitudes have led it into.

You say $30,000 a year like it's big money

Please tell me you meant British Pounds, or even Euros.

However, don't worry, Mike, the world economies are starting to slow down and contract. The scales will be tipping back in favor of the employer's side again.

[MichaelP]

Yes I know, I earned that sum of money at British Aerospace in 1982.
One thing I have utterly failed to do in Canada is make a living, and yes, $30,000 would be a very attractive salary to a Canadian instructor... I've made half that working at ***, while being very busy.
They wanted me to get my Class 2 ages ago, but what for, to work harder for another $2 an hour when I wasn't doing Class 2 supervision!
When I think of 1982 I think I am a complete fool doing what I'm doing, and now I'm getting depressed.

[Cat Driver]

It's to late to get depressed now Michael, you are in to far.

With some innovation and offering better service you could at least make a living with your new project.

One of these days I'll drop by and bounce some suggestions off you..the advice will be free.

[C-GGGQ]

I'm looking at $40,000 this year and thats if I don't do ANY flying so substitute some flight pay in there and i should be 45-50K as a class 4, so I think the times they are a finally changing

[Cat Driver]

You don't fly and still make 40K?

What do you do?

[C-GGGQ]

Class 4 flight instructor with Base pay, hourly ground, and hourly air. Anytime I'm not in the air I get paid hourly ground.

[Kelowna Pilot]

Does 'ground time' include managing the grow-op?

You make more money than an Air Canada new hire!

I'd keep the name of your school a secret, because if you're a Class IV and get a $40,000 base salary, which is basically unheard of, you're gonna get 1,000 resumes showing up the next day

[C-GGGQ]

The Base pay is really only 10K, the difference is say you have a day where you don't teach ground school all you do is fly. you go there for 8 hours you fly say 6 (gotta take lunch, fuel airplanes, brief students etc.) Most schools I've seen pay you 6 hours of flight time (and a little bit more for briefings) I get paid 6 hours of flight time and 2 hours of ground time for a total of 8 paid hours. I get paid more in the air than on the ground, but i still get paid while I'm on the ground in between flights its not part of my base pay. The base pay is strictly a retainer fee basically.

[C-GGGQ]

plus they have to pay us that well so we don't riot at the fact we have to wear, Epaulets, ID Badges, and Gold Wings, Yeah Gold Wings. I feel so stupid putting those things on in the morning.

[tired of the ground]

Cat is exactly right. The flight training industry is in a huge race to the bottom.

Every person that walks into a flight school says, how much for a PPL. Your starving class IV that would like Hot Dogs in his KD, hands the guy a piece of paper and says, That'll be 10 grand. Guy gets a tour, sees a fleet of 172's on the ground and goes next door. This starving Class IV is eating ketchup soup and this school's PPL costs 8 grand. The guy sees the same fleet of 172's (but doesn't understand what U/S stickers and on condition engines are). Where does he go? He goes to the school that makes his bank account look good.

It's Jetsgo syndrome. The general public expects that if you can fly a Jet across the country with $1 seats, then flying a bugsmasher with 4 seats around the patch should not cost a whole lot more. The biggest problem is that flight schools will not educate the customers, they pander to them. They try and cut corners and costs. We need to kill the idea that we can produce competent pilots for the price of a weekend at a hotel. When people understand how much it actually costs to run aircraft they will ante up or they don't get to play the game.

So how bout this for the commercial guys:

Get rid of all the bull in flight training. Back to the basics of 30 years ago; common sense flying, seat of the pants, hands and feet. Get your PPL the old fashioned way but raise the experience requirements. You have to have 2000 hours before you can get an instructor rating. Cost of flight training goes up because guys will not jump out of the left seat of a King Air to instruct for 15g a year. We now have 100g a year instructors, who want to be there, producing top notch students. A bunch of schools will close BUT the general pilot population will be much better trained and equipped to handle themselves.

You now get to do an apprenticeship to get your CPL. You have certain tasks/maneuvers that must be signed off by your training captains that you are safe to do by yourself. Each task must be signed by two different training captains so that you can't have some rogue training captain signing of crappy pilots. You could only be the PF on legs that are empty or only Cargo. Once you have all your tasks completed, you have to do a ride with your Chief Pilot to get you CPL signed off with the completion of the ground tests.

The ground tests consist of an interview. No more BS exams that test your English comprehension. Chat about rules and regulations and the examiner gets an idea of how much you really know, not how well you memorized the questions the weekend before.

No more PPC Bull. You do a ride to prove competence with the CP at the end of your recurrent training each year.

Time for your ATPL. You don't get an ATPL by smashing around in the circuit. You get an ATPL by doing an apprenticeship. You sit in the right seat of an aircraft that requires an ATPL to be Captain of. Again it's tasks/maneuvers and a ride with the CP that will get you your ATPL along with the interview for the ground stuff.



So would this be such a bad system?

[Cat Driver]

So would this be such a bad system?

No.

[MichaelP]

I'm in early this morning it's drizzling outside...
Outside there's a Katana to be test flown and if the weather allows it will go to another shop to be painted and have a new interior fitted...
There's another in the hangar waiting for more Evans antifreeze, an AD for this aircraft means we can only use one brand of antifreeze and it's not easy to get.

But no matter, I can't use these aeroplanes for training anyway, the maintenance schedule (the factory one) has to be approved again by the local TC office as if it had never existed before...
I think 'why am I doing this?', I am being paid a little better than most, but is it worth the struggle to do what I do?

I have two instructors and they want to be busy, they could be busy, but I'm only allowed three aeroplanes until the full MCM is approved. It's awful being constrained like this... Transport brings in a lot of regulations but does not have enough people to look after the workload they create.
The regulations limit me to three aircraft and have only approved one of them so far.

In Thailand it can take up to six months to get an approval for your aircraft, but sometimes only one or two if you go about it the right way.
But I expected Thailand to be a third World country, then on that first visit there I realised I'd come from one!
I never expected Canada to be the same; I'm used to logical positive progression into business, not this make work repetition nonsense.
I wish Canada had the standards and procedures I was used to elsewhere where you comply with the stated regulations and that is all you have to do.
Aircraft will be maintained in accordance with... and that is that.
Not having to certify a maintenance schedule issued by a Canadian manufacturer, again and again and again and again again and again and again and again again and again and again and again again and again and again and again, as if it had never existed before!

So this morning's project is to work out how I can pay my instructors a decent sum of money while I work through the constraints required to do business in Canada, and to ensure the people with the money don't feel they've made a bad investment!

There's a lot of things that need to be changed in Canada...

And another thing, here's a quote from the USA where they enjoy the new generation of aircraft in which PPL as well as Sport Pilot training takes place, like in our SportStar:

Thank you for your interest in the Legend Cub. As soon as Canada get on board with the Light Sport Aircraft we will be very happy and selling a lot of aircraft to our neighbors.

I'd love a Legend Cub on floats, but we can't have one at all!

Isn't it lovely: