Canadians working in the EU?

[Relocated]

I am looking for information on changing my Canadian CPL to JAA. I have been looking around and can only find information on converting the ATPL. Since I do not have 1500 hours do I have to do flight training too. If someone could point me in the right direction that would be great.

Thanks

[Chuck D]

To convert a Canadian CPL/Multi IFR to a JAA CPL/Multi IFR (Frozen ATPL) you will have to jump through many hoops.

1. JAA Class 1 Medical, has to be conducted at an approved aeromedical centre, ie Gatwick for the UK
2. 14 Written exams, including 750 hrs of ground school (which can be self study)
3. CPL Flight test
4. Multi/IFR Flight test
5. MCC (Multi Crew Co-operation) Course, this is needed for you to obtain your first type rating. You are exempt if you have 500 hours on a multi pilot aircraft.

For the ground school many places offer distance learning, Oxford aviation, Bristol, Naples in Florida ect.

Hope that helps.

[Skysurfer1]

Hi there,
Pretty much was the poster above said. I'm currently converting my Canadian CPL to JAR.
I've gone the route of doing the Bristol Groundschool http://www.bristol.gs . They are a distance learning program and you can do it at your own pace. I've decided to do it full time and hope to get Module 1 done in 4 months. Module 2 I hope will take me 3 months.
Module 1 = 8 exams done
Module 2 = 6 exams
They break it up to make it more managable. You also do a 2 week brush up course just prior to your exam date. I've not gone to one yet. I'm currently week 8 of module 1.
I'll warn you now, IT'S A LOT OF WORK. You really have to want to convert, cause a) Its work overload and b) its very expensive route to getting a job over here. This will cost you 4600$.
There will be stuff that you never knew existed and you wonder why you have to learn this stuff.

Then you need to get your medical at the same time cost you about 800$. Its a full day for this one.

Then you need to convert your actual licence which requires you to fly a complex single engine aircraft, ie. PA28. Min time is 5 hours with an instructor and then a skills test. Cost about 4000$

Then you need to do the most expensive bit of all...the IR. If you are serious in this, I wouldn't do your IR in Canada, cause it'll end up costing you more. Also, doing it outside the UK is by far the cheaper route, like doign it in Spain or Czech Republic. In the UK its about 700$ per hour to fly the BE76....yes you heard me right, the grand total to do it in the UK is about 22000$ If you go to a place like Aerodynamics in Malaga, Spain its almost half the cost!! The standards and quality is the same, as they are all under the JAA regulations and a licence obtained in Spain is fine if you fly for a UK airline. You dont have to do a written like the INRAT during your actual flying...that is covered in the ATPL exams.

Then you need to do a MCC course, and about 4000$ to do that. Not sure where to do it, cause I haven't decided myself!

All in all you'll need at least 30 000$ to do it, and that's if you pass everything first time round.

Also make sure you are legal to work in the UK!! Visit http://www.pprune.com Its a website geared for european pilots. May give you some insight.

Hope this helps,
Skysurfer

[Skysurfer1]

OK well I missed the bit where you have 1500 hours!! hahaha!!

So this information is also good to those who are intersted with low time hours

[Relocated]

Thanks guys for the help. At least now I have a place to start! It sounds like a big expense. Has anyone tried applying for a working visa to go there. Is it hard to get?

Skysurfer1, I only have 1100 hours (NOT 1500) so does all that information you wrote apply to me?

I have 800 hours multi so that means that I don't have to take the MCC course right?!?

[Skysurfer1]

Hi There,
I know you have to get:
1. Class 1 Medical
2. Get your frozen ATPL (That's a must get get any job in europe) I know a pilot who had thousands of hours who only had to do 2 of the 14 exams. But I think you still have low hours, that you do have to do all 14. Please contact http://www.bristol.gs. Even just for information on obtaining your ATPL. They are amazing and very friendly!!

Let me tell you a bit more about the ATPL and what my opinions on which route to take. You could do an acutal groundschool course, I believe you have to do something like 600hrs in class. That's good if you can afford to be away from home for 8 or so months and its a bit more expensive that doing it yourself. It's great however if need one on one help. Bournemouth Flying Club, Cabair, CTC and Oxford I believe do this, but seeing you have lots of hours Oxford I think isn't the right program for you. If you do bristol or other distance learning courses they are great if you have a job, but the only downside is, if your stuck on a question, there is no one on one. Bristol do have a great forum for help and you can always call or email the instructors. Apparently the two week course everything falls into place.

3. You need to convert your licence that applies
4. MCC course, to be honest I don't know!!
5. You need to also do an IR conversion which requires I think 15 hours time, I believe 10 of that can be done in the sim and 5 in the aircraft.

Hope that helps!
Skysurfer

[Chuck D]

I have 800 hours multi so that means that I don't have to take the MCC course right?!?

Multi Engine and multi pilot time are two separate different things. A Piper Seneca is a multi engine aircraft but a single pilot operation. If you are flying for an operator which specifies in their OPS manual that their aircraft (ie. Navajo) is required to have two pilots, then this can be counted as multi pilot time.

[shower of sparks]

here's something i recently learned, apart from companies asking you to pay for type ratings, there are some that want you to pay for line training after your type while working for free... pprune.org talks about all that.

sos

[Wacko]

I have 800 hours multi so that means that I don't have to take the MCC course right?!?

Multi Engine and multi pilot time are two separate different things. A Piper Seneca is a multi engine aircraft but a single pilot operation. If you are flying for an operator which specifies in their OPS manual that their aircraft (ie. Navajo) is required to
have two pilots, then this can be counted as multi pilot time.

I don't know about that... there was a post no too long ago where the EU countries will not count two crew time on aircraft that don't actually require a two crew environment.

[UKBound]

Hi All

I converted over 2 years ago. Had a Canadian ATPL, and a 737 type rating with time on type, prior to converting.

I wish to reiterate a few points to those wishing to work in the EU. It looks like most of the respondents do not have an ATPL or a Type Rating.

1) Make sure you can actually work in the EU first. Passport, citizenship or work permits.

2) Do the medical. Make sure you have no problems before laying out the cash. Be aware that different JAA countries have slightly different medical requirements.

3) About Multi-time. Make sure it is a Multi Crew aircraft, not just multi-engine.

4)Contact the authority of whichever country you are converting to, and get the answer from them direct, not a web message board. The CAA in the UK are very helpful, and all the info is somewhere in their website.

5)If you don't have a type rating, don't assume you'll get a job. Most 300 hour wonders in the right seat of an airbus or boeing have forked out their own cash for the type rating. That is what you are up against. Some companies pay the loan back, but not all. Thanks to Ryanair, most companies know they can get pilots to pay the training costs themselves. Budget for this. It is around 20000Pounds/Euros as appropriate.

Good Luck.

The studying is intense, and some of the exams are downright nasty.

Ciao

[Wacko]

UKBound. So having all of the above what training/conversions did you need to go through in order to fly in the UK?

... I'm glad someone replied who actually gone through this

[SQ]

ask them
http://www.oxfordaviation.net/

[Wacko]

I fear the unknown, I rather have the answers come to me.

[oates76]

Hey guys, I'm currently training to get my JAA licence, and I'd backup the Bristol comments, they are fantastic. I wrote the 8 module 1 exams back in March, and did really well with their help. The two week brush up course really gets your head into the exam mode, and goes through just about any question they could ask for most of the difficult tests.

Good luck, see ya over there.

[seniorpumpkin]

So for those of us who can't justify paying tens of thousands to fly overseas, are there options for flying in Europe without converting? For example countries that don't require pilots to be JAA licensed?
What about other places like Africa or south America? Do most countries honour a canadian ATPL?

[Chuck D]

So for those of us who can't justify paying tens of thousands to fly overseas, are there options for flying in Europe without converting? For example countries that don't require pilots to be JAA licensed?

The short answer would be "NO". Mostly all European Union Countries are involved with the JAA and some non-EU counties as well. You could get a validation based on your Canadian licence under exceptional circumstances. If you want further information visit (http://www.jaa.nl), and look under the JARs Flight Crew Licencing (FCL 1).

[seniorpumpkin]

Thanks .! That tells me everything I need to know and much much more! I wish the CARS were written that clearly.

[Ogee]

European aviation is very much head-up-the-bum and very much weighted to book larnin' rather than actual experience, mostly because there is very little lower tier aviation to get that experience in. The UK and Ireland are pretty sensible, but they are still bound up by JAA crap.

It's kind of the aviation equivalent of penis envy over there. They try to show they are better than the US and Canada by creating meaningless standards.

Real low time guys go into the right seat and that's the only experience they have before they go captain. The result is that the first emergency they ever have is on a jet airliner.

I always use the Gimli Glider vs the British Midland crash, where they shut down the running engine on a 737 and killed quite a few people. Europeans do not seem to handle emergencies well.

[DAVE THE RAVE]

European aviation is very much head-up-the-bum and very much weighted to book larnin' rather than actual experience, mostly because there is very little lower tier aviation to get that experience in. The UK and Ireland are pretty sensible, but they are still bound up by JAA crap.

It's kind of the aviation equivalent of penis envy over there. They try to show they are better than the US and Canada by creating meaningless standards.

Real low time guys go into the right seat and that's the only experience they have before they go captain. The result is that the first emergency they ever have is on a jet airliner.

I always use the Gimli Glider vs the British Midland crash, where they shut down the running engine on a 737 and killed quite a few people. Europeans do not seem to handle emergencies well.

I can only assume your comments were based on ignorance. I don't really want to get into a pissing match about standards but since you touched upon it, I'll bite. I believe a BA 747 had a quad engine failure...they seemed to recover. A BA Bac One Eleven had a window blow out were the captain got sucked out and was held in by the Flight Attendant as the FO landed the aircraft. The Gimli glider was a feat of flying, but wasn't a mathematical error the reason that placed them in that situation? What about the AC DC-9 accident in Cincinatti in the early '80s. I think before you go on to make bold statements about the European vs. North American industries you should get your facts right.

In my opinion I think North America, Western Europe, Australia and NZ have excellent standards. Just because a european pilot hasn't flown thousands of hours in tier 2-3 aircaft it doesn't make them less qualified. I think some Canadians who make these statements are extremely envious of their European counterparts.

[DBR]

I heared that TC is working together with JAR to streamline conversion from Canadian ATPL to a European ATPL. Kindda like converting from a Canadian license to FAA. I wonder though, would they throw out the number of exams all of a sudden?
The trend is that the JAA follows the rest but in a slow pace. You've seen a lot happen with the medical requirements for example, these are almost stream lined with the FAA now, while 4 years ago many starting pilots made the move out west since they couldn't start out in Europe. The same might happen with license conversion.

Europe is all about theory, while Canada focusses on the practical part. What is better? Don't know, it's happening 'up there' you know. It is somewhat weird realizing that people fly a jet with < 200 hrs TT. These guys/gals seem to do very well in the cockpit. I think Europe is about the pre-selection. If you want to start your professional training there are some strict requirements, and the selections are thorough, it's not just about having a credit on your bank account. I like the way things go in Canada though, you could indeed wonder if f.e a KLM captain would glide a 767 down and land it succesfully as we did here, on the other hand, would this same KLM captain get himself into a situation like this to start with ?

If you wanna fly out in Europe without converting, try Sunwing. Could be a sweet gig spending 6 months there. The flying is fun. Lot's of scenery/climate changes in relatively short time.

If anyone has info on the above rumor, would be great if you could share it!

[Ogee]

European aviation is very much head-up-the-bum and very much weighted to book larnin' rather than actual experience, mostly because there is very little lower tier aviation to get that experience in. The UK and Ireland are pretty sensible, but they are still bound up by JAA crap.

It's kind of the aviation equivalent of penis envy over there. They try to show they are better than the US and Canada by creating meaningless standards.

Real low time guys go into the right seat and that's the only experience they have before they go captain. The result is that the first emergency they ever have is on a jet airliner.

I always use the Gimli Glider vs the British Midland crash, where they shut down the running engine on a 737 and killed quite a few people. Europeans do not seem to handle emergencies well.

I can only assume your comments were based on ignorance. I don't really want to get into a pissing match about standards but since you touched upon it, I'll bite. I believe a BA 747 had a quad engine failure...they seemed to recover. A BA Bac One Eleven had a window blow out were the captain got sucked out and was held in by the Flight Attendant as the FO landed the aircraft. The Gimli glider was a feat of flying, but wasn't a mathematical error the reason that placed them in that situation? What about the AC DC-9 accident in Cincinatti in the early '80s. I think before you go on to make bold statements about the European vs. North American industries you should get your facts right.

In my opinion I think North America, Western Europe, Australia and NZ have excellent standards. Just because a european pilot hasn't flown thousands of hours in tier 2-3 aircaft it doesn't make them less qualified. I think some Canadians who make these statements are extremely envious of their European counterparts.

My comments are not based on ignorance. If that's all you can assume, you would seem to have a limited assumption ability. I've lived in Europe, I've flown there, and I've done crash investigation there. I'm sure there are some pilots there who measure up quite well and there are some I wouldn't give a roller skate to.

I'm not saying that every European airliner that has a problem crashes. I'm saying that some have crashed for no good reason other than pilot inexperience. I've seen a lot of at least Irish and Brit pilots with a fair bit of time who'd be dead in a couple of months if they ever came to work in the mountains of BC.

There are some good pilots in Europe, but there are a lot of Biggleses too.

Western Europe does have "excellent" standards, I don't dispute that, but what is missing is some connection to the reality of day to day aviation. They are standards simply for the sake of saying "we have standards." You only need look to the posts above about the ridiculous amount of ground school and the exams they have to write on things that they will never ever have to consider again in their lives.

I take it you're European, as I am. I don't let my citizenship blind me to the truth about what kind of pilot I'd rather have up front if something went seriously wrong. Having your captain go through the windshield of a BAC-111 is serious for the captain, but there was otherwise nothing wrong with the aircraft and what would have been remarkable is if the cojo couldn't have landed it. Unless your man had Prince Charlies ears, I doubt he was creating any serious drag.

As to the next post, it is good news to hear that TC is working to make conversion less ridiculous. I'd be curious to know what the reciprocal arrangements are if a JAA licensed pilot wants to convert here. I'd bet the BS is piled far less high.

[Carlito]

Can anyone explain what the quick conversion is all about if you have the required 3000 hrs. And is there any new information about TC working to make the conversion easier?

[SQ]

do a google sarch on JAR UK and contact them they're very efficient and quick to answer

[rigpiggy]

read it closer the 3000hr is pic on over 30k aircraft
g 1.5 pg 4-5
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Section%2 ... ICENCE.pdf

[fruz]

I heared that TC is working together with JAR to streamline conversion from Canadian ATPL to a European ATPL. Kindda like converting from a Canadian license to FAA. I wonder though, would they throw out the number of exams all of a sudden?

If anyone has info on the above rumor, would be great if you could share it!

I heard this too a little while ago, when I was inquiring on converting. I heard it from a flight school here in Canada that used to do conversions. At the time, (in april) they said that TC and the JAA had just begun discussing it. But he also said that it would take much longer finalize than it did to finalize the TCCA/FAA conversion as there is a lot more to go over - whatever that may be. This is just from one guy though - he could be off on his information and his estimates though. But this is the first I've heard about it outside of what he told me - which is a good sign. I hope its true.

I'm able to work in the EU however, the groundschool/training requires deep pockets to do so. I had to give up on it for now. I'm hoping the above is true though. I've tried googling it but havent been able to find anything really. Has anyone heard anything else about this?