I thought american beer didn't count

[stevie y]

Although this incident happened at PAG last year it is still haunting many of the pilots who felt the situation was not given the attention it deserved. The crews involved and the people (and I emphasize people not person) who witnessed what happened in Fargo know all the details and its best that it stays that way.

However, it ‘s obvious to anyone who does know the truth that this storm did not irrupt over one measly beer and 7.49 hours. It was _not_ an isolated event and the quantity of alcohol was severely downplayed by the guilty parties.

The bottom line is that the subsequent treatment and punishment (or lack there of some would argue) of these pilots drove 2 senior captains to resign and killed morale for all the other pilots who thought that hard work, dedication, integrity and following the rules would get them ahead. Instead they watched as one was promoted to a northern captain and one was upgraded to captain.

Their actions were unsafe and reckless and displayed a severe lack of responsibility, discipline and maturity . . . all qualities that should be second nature to anyone in their position.

When you are in uniform (yes they were in uniform) at home or away from base you represent your fellow pilots and the company you work for. Most of the PAG pilots were embarrassed to be associated with people that had no value for the positions they held.

To Busted,

“Since it was two F.O's and one captain drinking, what happened to the Captain that took off in the morning knowing that her F.O. had been drinking?

Where was the command decision to delay the flight for that whole .5 of an hour to make it legal.
Instead she tried to get them all fired when they got back.

Do you not hold some responsibility as the captain of that aircraft in the grand scheme of things?”

Yes, there was another captain involved and contrary to your belief the whistle was blown by someone else, several other people in fact. It may be hard for you to believe but a few of the almost 100 pilots at PAG wanted action taken, not just one person. Although you seem to know everything about this captain I will with great pleasure correct you and assure you that there was no attempt on that captain’s part to get anyone fired. I’m not sure why you felt it was necessary to drag someone’s reputation through the mud. That captain was unwillingly thrust into a shit storm and not once refused to accept responsibility for taking that FO in the morning. Because you are uneducated regarding the particular circumstances of that second crew you cannot accuse anyone of not holding themselves responsible or not making that flight legal.

[4Stroke]

What a great story!! Need more of these on this forum!!!

4S

[Static]

listen guys as we come down on pag try to remember the good times

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYJRu-U7mjA

--Static

[TopperHarley]

listen guys as we come down on pag try to remember the good times

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYJRu-U7mjA

--Static

I loved Good Times!

[boeing boeing]

The suggestion that the Captain should have not departed and rather should have called the Fargo Police and FAA shows how little pilots know about the rules in the USA. Had the Captain called in the Feds as is suggested would have resulted in several ugly reprecussions.
First, the 3 pilots would have been arrested and charged with a clear violation of the law. The last time a crew (NWA 727 ) was caught in similar situation by coincidece in Fargo a few years ago, when the dust settled the captain got 5 years in jail and needless to say all 3 lost their jobs.
Secondly the 2 Metro's would have been seized and a lenghty and costly process would have ensued for their release.
Thirdly Perimeter would have lost the DHL contract.
Now do you still think the Captain should have called in the Feds ???

[Sulako]

The suggestion that the Captain should have not departed and rather should have called the Fargo Police and FAA shows how little pilots know about the rules in the USA. Had the Captain called in the Feds as is suggested would have resulted in several ugly reprecussions.
First, the 3 pilots would have been arrested and charged with a clear violation of the law. The last time a crew (NWA 727 ) was caught in similar situation by coincidece in Fargo a few years ago, when the dust settled the captain got 5 years in jail and needless to say all 3 lost their jobs.
Secondly the 2 Metro's would have been seized and a lenghty and costly process would have ensued for their release.
Thirdly Perimeter would have lost the DHL contract.
Now do you still think the Captain should have called in the Feds ???

That's quite a silly argument. You are saying the Cappy shouldn't have let anyone know because the penalties for breaking the law are so severe?

"Sure, a guy killed this other guy, but if you call the cops, the killer will go to jail. Now do you think you should still call the cops?"

Drinking while on duty is willingly risking the lives of others, and completely unacceptable. Doesn't matter if there were no pax on board, there were still people living under the flight path of the aircraft who might not like it if the drunken pilots decided to impact the ground at the particular spot.

The pilots involved in such a wanton and negligent act should not be allowed to fly again. Ever.

[your hero]

maybe what they were getting at was instead of calling the feds, call the company, habve a sober crew flown down to releive the pilots, then deal with the issue within the company and report it to TC (as they did)

[Disco Stu]

The suggestion that the Captain should have not departed and rather should have called the Fargo Police and FAA shows how little pilots know about the rules in the USA. Had the Captain called in the Feds as is suggested would have resulted in several ugly reprecussions.
First, the 3 pilots would have been arrested and charged with a clear violation of the law. The last time a crew (NWA 727 ) was caught in similar situation by coincidece in Fargo a few years ago, when the dust settled the captain got 5 years in jail and needless to say all 3 lost their jobs.
Secondly the 2 Metro's would have been seized and a lenghty and costly process would have ensued for their release.
Thirdly Perimeter would have lost the DHL contract.
Now do you still think the Captain should have called in the Feds ???

Boo fucking hoo. There WAS a clear violation of the law!!!!!

They didn't consume a beer 7.5 hours prior to being on duty, THEY WERE ON DUTY!

The crew that flew home drunk SHOULD have been put in jail. PERIOD. They could have shared a cell with Tayfel if the judge had done her job in that case.....however I digress.....

They DEFINITELY should have lost their jobs. All 3 of them.

Maybe phoning the police would have been a little harsh. However, had the captain called PAG to alert them of the situation, DHL would have found out that the crew was intoxicated anyway, and who knows, maybe someone from the office would have called the police.

Either way, those airplanes shouldn't have moved.

[YWG Shame]

maybe what they were getting at was instead of calling the feds, call the company, habve a sober crew flown down to releive the pilots, then deal with the issue within the company and report it to TC (as they did)

What you suggest is absolutely ludicrous. To Suggest the pilot not involve with the drinking to prevent the other crew from getting in their plane and not returning home would cause a dangerous situation. Why would anyone put themselves in a situation such as that to protect 3 individuals from feeling the wrath of the US justice system? Cause they considered you when they showed up to work illegally? Then to call DHL and explain the delay? Regardless of what you did it would not take long for the police to show up. Those actions would result in that individual to have to lie to DHL and customs for the arriving crew. Customs tend to like to ask what the purpose of this arrival is.

What you don't seem to understand is when you do the same run every day, people start to get to know you and your routines. From the guys loading your plane to the fuelers, and yes to customs. And for them to watch a third plane arrive hours later a new crew come out and fly the planes home would protect no one. Questions would be asked.

Perimeter is an extremely large company employing over 300 people all over Manitoba, with over 100 pilots. These pilots put that all at risk for everyone who works there. For what? "one beer". They sat down made a decision to order a beer knowing full well that this was illegal and could result in consequences. What they probably didn't realize is there are 300 other people who need to get up in the morning and go to work to support themselves and their families. There was no consideration that there act could result in a horrible outcome. People could have been killed, lawsuits could have been filled, and bankruptcies could have happen. For "one beer". They might not be feeling very lucky right now. But they have no idea how lucky there are.

I am utterly shocked that the GM of Perimeter would respond to such an obvious disregard for his company and the company his family worked so hard to build with a "boys will be boys" attitude. Yes people make mistakes every day. As Pilots they happen all the time. But blowing an altitude or heading are just that mistakes. They happen for many reasons. Drinking while on duty is no mistake, it requires a conscious decision. It’s disgusting and has ruined the reputation of every Perimeter pilot. People will always wonder if you were one of the three.

I suggest if you’re outraged at the actions that were taken in this event to be proactive. If you know who the pilots are, tell you managers that if they ever hire them your gone. Tell your unions you don't want your hard earned money going to defend people like this. And you will make your union dues go to a worthy cause. Then they can spend the rest of the careers at Perimeter, seeing as they don't seem to mind this behavior.

[Static]

maybe what they were getting at was instead of calling the feds, call the company, habve a sober crew flown down to releive the pilots, then deal with the issue within the company and report it to TC (as they did)

The company would have come down on the sober pilot, made up some sort of rule allowing them to fly it, and then pretended it never happened.

Perimeter does not like 'inconvenience' and regardless of the situation (I've had one or two of my own in Fargo), they wouldn't have sent down a second crew. I was told by the ops manager once, due to a oil temperature gauge malfunction, that nobody would come down to rescue me, no maintenance would be sent to repair it, and that I should just fly it back as is, and if I didn't like it...I should UNPLUG THE GAUGE.

Now...you tell me that calling the feds wasn't a better idea.

Regardless, there would never have been any consequences to the guilty crew members if the company had been called.

[bobcaygeon]

Actually Disco Stu, they should have waited 30 more minutes (8 hrs) and then they would have been fresh to fly to ywg and then do a full day of sked work afterwards.

Isn't that how it really works??? You know, before you joined "the elite" .
Sorry I couldn't resist.

In this situation, I will perform a rare feat, and not comment at all.......really

[MrWings]

Could you not comsume alcohol on a layover if you allowed the neccessary 8 hours to elapse from taking the last sip? I know it is part of the duty day but the CARS only mention being a crew member. You aren't a crew member if you are sitting in the hotel room and not scheduled to fly for another 8-10 hours.

[YWG Shame]

Could you not comsume alcohol on a layover if you allowed the neccessary 8 hours to elapse from taking the last sip? I know it is part of the duty day but the CARS only mention being a crew member. You aren't a crew member if you are sitting in the hotel room and not scheduled to fly for another 8-10 hours.

Keep in mind that when your on duty but not flying your company may call you at anytime, and asked you to fly.

[MrWings]

Keep in mind that when your on duty but not flying your company may call you at anytime, and asked you to fly.

I didn't say it would be a smart thing to do. But legally OK, isn't it?

In any case, it is bad decision to drink before you are scheduled to fly. I'm suprised the pilot's didn't lose their jobs. I'm even more suprised the company covered for them. I think it goes to show how hard it is to retain pilots these days.

[mulletowner]

First of all, Perimeter pilots may have been upset with this situation, but in no way should the actions of these 3 pilots tarnish the reputation of any other pilot, at Perimeter or not. And to Static... your temp guage anecdote is irrelevant and unprofessional. Even Skyward pilots didn't stoop to this level.

[Static]

First of all, Perimeter pilots may have been upset with this situation, but in no way should the actions of these 3 pilots tarnish the reputation of any other pilot, at Perimeter or not. And to Static... your temp guage anecdote is irrelevant and unprofessional. Even Skyward pilots didn't stoop to this level.

The relevance is my attempt to establish character of the company. To try and explain the bind that the captain would have experienced KNOWING the way the company would have reacted.

[YWG gearcleaner]

Awesome first post mulletowner. Very well thought out. Still a bit of a chip on the shoulder eh?

[Guest295]

Static,

I heard you were suspended from Perimeter three times, this says a lot about your character. Yup, Jazz got a fine pilot there.

[mulletowner]

Cleaner of Gear, what do you mean by a chip on my shoulder. I have no chips, chips belong in the back of the plane...

[stevie y]

I can say with certainty that the last two suspensions were for not breaking CARS (which inconvenienced the company) and for telling the truth in an official report

Jazz did get a fine pilot, its too bad there aren't more out there like him

[YWG Shame]

First of all, Perimeter pilots may have been upset with this situation, but in no way should the actions of these 3 pilots tarnish the reputation of any other pilot, at Perimeter or not. And to Static... your temp guage anecdote is irrelevant and unprofessional. Even Skyward pilots didn't stoop to this level.

I wonder if you can see the hypocrisy of your statement. I completely agree with you in that in no way should this situation hurt anyone else's reputation. Unfortunately this is not a reality of our society. Stereotyping of groups such as race and religion have existed for a very long time and will probably always exist. Stereotyping does live in small groups such as "Perimeter Pilots” as well. And you would be completely naive to assume otherwise. What proof of this do I have? Well here in lies the hypocrisy, not more than two sentences later you put pilots who have worked at skywards into a negative group. As the level in which some of them may have "stooped" to. As if living in yth and working for Skyward somehow alters genetics, and the inner workings of the human brain to result in some sort of low stooping behavior.

And to add further criticism. Many Perimeter employees (and many pilots in general it seems) were upset and still are. Not may have been like you put it.

[Axial Flow]

I do not support the actions of the said pilots but it is amazing of all the pilots here who are angels and have never broken any CARS violation. It is a CARS violation and is just as serious as busting duty times, flying overweight, under fueled, or all of the above plus another bunch of rules which I am sure some have maybe not have broken but molested in the past.

They were still ON-DUTY and it is a horrible offence but the fact some people talk as if they are God's gift to aviation drives me crazy. It's not what you hear that scares you, it's what goes on without knowing that's the worst.

As per the Captain that ratted them out once they got back, you may as well have had a beer with them. But that would be twice you didn't do the right thing.

I just hope that you may never find yourself at the mercy of your fellow Anonymous pilots on the web.

[Captain Crunch]

Myth: the captain "ratted" out the guilty parties... it was someone else

[Static]

Static,

I heard you were suspended from Perimeter three times, this says a lot about your character. Yup, Jazz got a fine pilot there.

Oh, looks like we have a very well educated super pilot here.
So, first off, I was suspended twice:
1) failure to violate cars section 700.16..
maybe this is a section you have violated multiple times just to get the job done, or to endanger the humans behind and below you. Me...personally...I sleep well at night knowing that the many times I said 'NO' probably have saved my life and those behind and below me.
2) accusing someone of a proven drinking problem
oh HOW CONVENIENT that this plays a part in this little discussion. Alcohol and flying...pointing out that someone makes poor decisions while under the influence of alcohol got me in trouble. So be it. I'd say it again.

As it turns out, during my PAID suspension on 2), I went and got a job elsewhere.

So...Jazz got a fine pilot. I'll forgo the sarcastic..."thanks" and explain to you in small words what kind of pilot Jazz got.
I spent every day of my flying life trying to follow as many rules as was humanly possible, I also upheld an extremely high standard, as I (in my ridiculous beliefs that flying may require it) made it known to those I flew with when that standard was not upheld. Were you one of the people who had no idea where they were in day vfr on vectors? How about the person who couldn't fly a conventional STAR because the GPS mysteriously became unserviceable? How about the person who had the attention span of a nat and stated that airplanes were not conflicting with us just to sound cool like everyone else "no conflict" when they really were? Maybe you're a person who just 'hopes it will all work out' and up to this point...it obviously has. Lucky you. It's people like you who take an actual violation of the LAW, don't consider it a big deal, and turn it into a personal attack (you must be as cool as I've always wanted to be, you should just weld your awesome shades to your head) just to raise yourself up the bar. Let's question my integrity...

...I assure you, my integrity has not changed. I've never done anything intentionally unsafe...these fellows consumed alcohol within the legal tolerances...unsafe? I believe so.

Suspend me all you want for following regulations (inconvenience) and upholding a high standard (being a prick)...any passenger would fly with me knowing that. Says a lot about my character...I never drank and flew, I never did an illegal drug in my life, and I come to a complete stop at every stop sign. Bend your rules, and stand up for those who believe a few minutes won't make a difference...let's see if a court of law will agree with you. Please question my character some more.

Thanks

[Captain Crunch]

There are few that stand with us static... but I'm glad to stand beside you!