Todays flow in Winnipeg Terminal=wow!

[mikegtzg]

Offset wrote:

Light, private VFR aircraft pay significantly less in user fees than do commercial, IFR operators. That's why the get first priority when staffing is reduced. If user fees for light,
VFR traffic were incresed then incresed service might follow. But I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

Yes light, private aircraft do pay less. But if the light private aircraft files IFR...they get to fly into this airspace when the staff shortages occur and they pay the exact same amount to Navcanada as a light, private aircraft that flies VFR.

[Offset]

......................

[scrambled_legs]

The alternative is to skirt the city. For many this is going out of the way. And as well staying under 3000' asl for 70 nm while just flying thru enroute is very uncomfortable when the sun starts to warm things up.
If vfr aircraft are less important in the eyes of Navcanada that they are the first users of the system to be knocked out when staff shortages dictate.

Are you referring to transiting around YWG, or approaching to land? If you're referring to transiting around, I imagine transiting IFR aircraft wouldn't be given priority through the airspace either. They would find themselves being vectored the 70nm around the airspace, without the choice of choosing their own route at a lower altitude. It isn't a safety issue if you take the long way around, only an inconvenience.

When staff shortages occur, everyone finds their service reduced, no matter how much they pay. That being said, you have to remember, most IFR flights are business flights, whereas most VFR are pleasure. I know I wouldn't want to explain to the 200 passengers on board, or large carrier owners facing tight times and large NC fees, that their passenger jet is holding well ATC deals with some sight seeing flights paying 19c/day in user fees. Try flying in the US and see how many times you are told to stay clear of the Class B, even when they're at full staff.

As we all know, this industry is cyclical and right now we're on the shortage side of things and will be for a while. The only way to overcome that quickly, would be to increase user fees and throw a bunch of money at the training side of things as well as offer huge bonuses for the old guys to stick around. I don't see that happening anytime soon, even though I would support it. As it stands now we just have to wait until the natural cycle of retirements and training balance out.

[Jerricho]

[......

[FamilyGuy]

As we all know, this industry is cyclical and right now we're on the shortage side of things and will be for a while. The only way to overcome that quickly, would be to increase user fees and throw a bunch of money at the training side of things as well as offer huge bonuses for the old guys to stick around. I don't see that happening anytime soon, even though I would support it. As it stands now we just have to wait until the natural cycle of retirements and training balance out.

Sorry but I spit out my beer and laughed out loud for an hour on that one

I guess the "cycle" is about 20+ years eh? ATC has been short staffed since the hiring freeze in the 80's and again when Nav took over. Call me silly but I don't think they need to throw a bunch of money at it, they just need to do it consistentely. If you wait for the "natural" cycle, well I think we'l all be out of fuel by then. Didn't they project 105% staffing by 2000......

[invertedattitude]

It would be so awesome if ATC and FSS had anything approaching a right to strike.

Last I heard ATC does/will have the right to "strike" by restricing 10% of domestic traffic from departing. May not sound like much but it's millions of dollars of lost revenue.

Now I don't have any paper to back it up, and it's just a rumour since I haven't seen anything official myself....well with the exception of the memo about not spreading rumours...

On topic, I find it amazing that someone actually gets so irritated that there is a 5 second blurb on an ATIS about why everyone is getting delayed.

You may fly in-out of Winnipeg all the time, but I'm sure there are a number of pilots who do not and would be genuinely interested as to the cause of the delays without pissing off a busy controller with a question.

By the way, putting that info on the ATIS is an indirect way of getting the "superiors" to work on it, since after 2 months of hearing it, airlines are going to be quite fed up and complain to the company about the status of their service.

All of this being said we have to wait and see how this new training program is going to work out. Apparently all of the aptitude testing is going to be done online and much more ATC related, combined with active duty controllers doing the interviewing as part of a board.

[Jerricho]

......

[invertedattitude]

Last I heard ATC does/will have the right to "strike" by restricing 10% of domestic traffic from departing

I think I call bullshit on that rumour.

Flow restrictions for a specific purpose (Ground Stop/ Delay etc), yes. Restricting 10% from departing? That's industrial action. Our agreement (Article 37) says nope.

Well according to the rumour this was supposedly granted since the last agreement , likely just a rumour gone out of control, but would be quite a useful "tool" if it was true.

[robshelle]

Yes, ATC does have the right to strike. In the last round, we stopped training non licensed trainees as allowed to us by the Canadian Industrial Relations Board. Also, the Company Locked-out VFR trainees(not the IFR ones though) during this strike action.

Also included in the decision was a right to restrict domestic, transborder and international scheduled traffic, domestic and transborder charter traffic, local flying, training flights and corperate/business flights. However, as I recall, the wording was very open to interpetation on the implementation of the restrictions. When both the Union and the company initially wanted clarification, the CIRB said that there it was in black and white, try it at your own peril and then find out if your inerpetation was correct. Hence, neither side crossed the line(and why would the company do that?) and the result is that the only actions that were taken was the stopping of controller training.

When last talked to about this with our then Regional VP, it was the understanding that during this round coming up that if we were to try to take any further strike action that the company would immediately appeal the action, and that we would probably have to cease and desist the strike.

Clear as mud yet?

Bottom line is full right to strike as detailed above will be coming at some point in the next century. Until then we will only be able stop training of unlicensed controllers.

Rob Benusic
CYEG Tower

[scrambled_legs]

Sorry but I spit out my beer and laughed out loud for an hour on that one

I guess the "cycle" is about 20+ years eh? ATC has been short staffed since the hiring freeze in the 80's and again when Nav took over. Call me silly but I don't think they need to throw a bunch of money at it, they just need to do it consistentely. If you wait for the "natural" cycle, well I think we'l all be out of fuel by then. Didn't they project 105% staffing by 2000......

Yes, the company has dropped the ball a few times, yes the staffing predictions are beyond ludacris, but what's facing us right now (baby boomers retiring) is not exactly controllable and that was what I was referring to by a natural cycle. What percentage of the current work force has/will retire in the past and next 5 years??? It's not like pilot training where you only take a month of training from street to cockpit. When you have up to two years training and 70% of the trainees not making it, you're going to have issues with staffing at certain times. Right now McDonalds, RCMP, Highways, Plumbers, Starbucks, Carpenters, Bus Drivers, etc, etc, are all begging for employees, and they never had a hiring freeze. Given NC's training requirements, it's not a surprise that they are currently very short as well. A quick fix doesn't involve consistent hiring, we all know there isn't consistent retiring right now. The only way you'll fix this in the next few years, is by spending a lot of money in training and trying to delay the retirements. Once the baby boomer hump is conquered, then you can have consistency but only for the next 20 years until the present hiring boom starts retiring and then you're going to have a mad scramble for new employees once again. Still laughing or do you understand now young grasshopper???

As far as the right to strike is concerned... as Rob said, its a clear as mud. Why the union isn't asking for clarification now before negotiations start, when the letter obviously states that we have a right to strike at some capacity, is beyond me... anyone???

[TFE731]

.......It's not like pilot training where you only take a month of training from street to cockpit.

I love it when a pilot tells me how to do my job with no idea what rules, procedures, inter-unit arrangements, coordination is being applied.

[Offset]

......................

[scrambled_legs]

.......It's not like pilot training where you only take a month of training from street to cockpit.

I love it when a pilot tells me how to do my job with no idea what rules, procedures, inter-unit arrangements, coordination is being applied.

TFE, unlike your "no disrespect" post, if I'm trying to insult you, you'll know it. My comment regarding pilot training is simply that. If Air Canada has 30 positions that need filling, they open up the 3,000 resumes stacked on their desk and pick the 30 most valuable applicants and after a month or two of ground school, they have 30 pilots on the line and no more vacancies. In ATC, if we have 30 Vancancies, we go through our applicants pick the 30 best and two years later we'll have maybe 9 of the 30 positions filled. 70% of our applicants never receive a licence after beginning training. I'm simply pointing out that you can solve staffing problems with pilot shortages in a matter of months whereas problems with ATC shortages take years to fix and you never know who's going to make it and who isn't.

As far as the "don't tell me my job" comment. There's been Westjet Pilots that didn't make it through the ground school... so quit thinking that you know it all, and don't tell me my job!!! If you have a question as to why we do something, then ask. Don't sit there and tell me to quit whining on the ATIS or do such a bad job seperating aircraft, when all it does is make you sound like an ignorant, arrogant, prick. 70% of your coworkers couldn't do our job, so I wouldn't be so sure in yourself that you're the exception. And no that's not being conceded, that's simply trying to open up your eyes to the possibility that there is far more to it than you can see out of your windscreen.

[KAFUFO]

PUSSY'S

your Fucking kidding me right. The fucking kids you have staffing the embarrassment you call a TCA, do me a favor and revert to a FSS as I personally maintain a better separation and yet realize operational awareness far better than the jokes you call controllers (Jericho not included).

There is no way that I am paying out of pocket for the absolute shit service that I receive from you jokers and yet I still don't get what I'm worth with the primary argument of the always increasing Nav Canada fees.

Heads up, I will be recommending to my union that a portion of those fees be withheld based on the fact that you cannot staff you facilities properly and therefor cannot deliver the services that we pay for.

You don't accept our flight plans @#$! you I'm going anyways.

P.S. Make no mistake A/C will fly without you fuckers, your there for efficinency not neccesity

[lilfssister]

Gee, you must have had unsatisfactory responses to your written or verbal queries/complaints to NAV CANADA customer service or directly to the managers of these facilities, KAFUFO?

[Jerricho]

.......

[scrambled_legs]

Jerricho, you have to understand why the controllers in YWG risk their licences trying to run squeeze plays in order to get their very appreciative customers in faster after reading this thread. I bet reading these legitimate questions regarding tower agreements, rules of separation, common tower/term coordination, with an obvious concern of what you have to deal with on a day to day basis, and a great appreciation for the skills that you have, just makes you want to approve every request and get them all straight in with no delays.

What a bunch of assholes, I'd be keeping it to one in one out, if I knew my customers displayed this attitude.

KAFUFO, TFE... if you have a legitimate concern about a terminal action, bring it up and we'll probably have a simple rule as to why. If you want to know, ask why, if you came on here to hurl insults and be a cock... then go back to your cockpit and continue to masturbate to the thought that you're better than all of us in there, I'm sick of seeing you do it here.

[invertedattitude]

Sounds to me like a couple of 99 Co-joes who are disgruntled the musical chairs just stopped.

Get off your goddamn high horse and try doing any ATC/FSS job for 5 minutes. I know it's freaking drastic you get slightly delayed for 2 months of the year, but throwing blame on the controllers themselves is pretty low, do you think they or any of us enjoy working short staffed? Let me tell you its great fun to come in on a beautiful sunny day and work for 2+hours straight with a 15-20 minute break for the entire shift working heavy pace traffic because you just don't have the bodies.

Thankfully my unit isn't quite that understaffed yet as YWG obviously is, but we're going down that path as well.

I know it's real hard for pilots to have to "suffer" with the delays but just remember once you get on the ground, that controller is still going full bore likely for another 7-8 hours after you're gone home bitching about a minor delay.

Jesus Christ why not trade that bug smasher in for a big airplane and head down to JFK or EWR if you want to know what a real delay is.

And you're right you don't need us, pilots can self-separate History has proven what happens when pilots take separation into their own hands...

[Cat Driver]

Reading this stuff from KAFUFO gives me mixed emotions.

First and foremost is a sense of shame to think that any pilot would berate air traffic controllers in such an unfair manner.

My next emotion is the overpowering desire to head down to Winnipeg and find this guy and cut his nuts off with a rusty can opener and stuff them in his mouth and sew his fingers to his lips to prevent him from typing on his keyboard.....

....there I feel better already.

[cywg_sw4]

PUSSY'S

your Fucking kidding me right. The fucking kids you have staffing the embarrassment you call a TCA, do me a favor and revert to a FSS as I personally maintain a better separation and yet realize operational awareness far better than the jokes you call controllers (Jericho not included).

There is no way that I am paying out of pocket for the absolute shit service that I receive from you jokers and yet I still don't get what I'm worth with the primary argument of the always increasing Nav Canada fees.

Heads up, I will be recommending to my union that a portion of those fees be withheld based on the fact that you cannot staff you facilities properly and therefor cannot deliver the services that we pay for.

You don't accept our flight plans @#$! you I'm going anyways.

P.S. Make no mistake A/C will fly without you fuckers, your there for efficinency not neccesity

Come on now, tell us how you REALLY feel!