Accomodations during course

[tonysoprano]

I consider the first 2 years as proof of your keenness to be part of something bigger than 'just another airline job'. I had to suffer through it, and so did every other pilot (about 1000 now) at Westjet. So sorry it's tough going, but until that stack of resumes a mile high dwindle down and we 'need' to offer employment incentives, I don't see the reason for paying for hotels. As Tony said, AC takes care of the hotels, and if it's that much of an issue to you, head on over to the easter-egg-blue team and have fun, seeya lata.

Ok, last thoughts on this one (and any other for that matter as I'm done). The statements by Four1Oh and FL trouble me and I consider it yet another arrogant cop-out by WJetters. I hate to break it to you Four1Oh but your job IS just another airline job. Thinking otherwise is nothing short of arrogance. We all think our jobs are special but at the end of the day, we're all in the same boat. We are very priveledged to be in this industry but it's up to us to maintain acceptable standards as set up for us by previous generations of pilots. I come from another era when pilots were well respected and took care of their own. What I see hapening today is a brainwashed approach to airline economics where the company holds us (yes even us at AC) responsible for the success or failure of the company. Management is winning. Even my own union hasn't won all the battles and can do better. Our profession is being degraded because of this new thinking. Of course, if you don't know any better, then you are happy with all this. Yes, even where I work things are not the same but at least my union holds management responsible, for what it's worth (not the other way around). Even if you feel powerless or just simply drunk on the koolaid, don't ever lose track of your professional integrity. Don't accept that it's what's "good of the company". Draw the line somewhere. And if you feel this is not the case cowboys, we really are in trouble.

[Biff]

Who cares about three or four weeks accomodation(i'm guessing most can find a furnished room for about $1500 or less). I think the real robbery, at both Westjet and AC, is that they pay so poorly for the first two years.

[Donald]

Tony: Well said and +1 (from someone who hasn't been around nearly as long).

[Huge Hammer]

Ok, last thoughts on this one (and any other for that matter as I'm done). The statements by Four1Oh and FL trouble me and I consider it yet another arrogant cop-out by WJetters. I hate to break it to you Four1Oh but your job IS just another airline job. Thinking otherwise is nothing short of arrogance.

Sorry Tony, you are wrong. You think it is all the same and I am sure you will roll out another tremendously witty Kool-Aid reference but you simply don't get it.

[daveg]

Apples and oranges....right Tony? One company successful...one not. I agree with you on that one.





Last thoughts..............I think not.

[Four1oh]

I consider the first 2 years as proof of your keenness to be part of something bigger than 'just another airline job'. I had to suffer through it, and so did every other pilot (about 1000 now) at Westjet. So sorry it's tough going, but until that stack of resumes a mile high dwindle down and we 'need' to offer employment incentives, I don't see the reason for paying for hotels. As Tony said, AC takes care of the hotels, and if it's that much of an issue to you, head on over to the easter-egg-blue team and have fun, seeya lata.

Ok, last thoughts on this one (and any other for that matter as I'm done). The statements by Four1Oh and FL trouble me and I consider it yet another arrogant cop-out by WJetters. I hate to break it to you Four1Oh but your job IS just another airline job. Thinking otherwise is nothing short of arrogance. We all think our jobs are special but at the end of the day, we're all in the same boat. We are very priveledged to be in this industry but it's up to us to maintain acceptable standards as set up for us by previous generations of pilots. I come from another era when pilots were well respected and took care of their own. What I see hapening today is a brainwashed approach to airline economics where the company holds us (yes even us at AC) responsible for the success or failure of the company. Management is winning. Even my own union hasn't won all the battles and can do better. Our profession is being degraded because of this new thinking. Of course, if you don't know any better, then you are happy with all this. Yes, even where I work things are not the same but at least my union holds management responsible, for what it's worth (not the other way around). Even if you feel powerless or just simply drunk on the koolaid, don't ever lose track of your professional integrity. Don't accept that it's what's "good of the company". Draw the line somewhere. And if you feel this is not the case cowboys, we really are in trouble.

First of all, 3down&loct, sorry about continuing to derail your thread. Welcome aboard, man, you're going to have a great time here.

Now Tony, from what I know about you, I'm glad you don't get it. You can continue on with the 'koolaid' and 'brainwashing' cheap shots all ya want, buddy, have at'er. You're right, management is winning. Your management is kicking your collective asses, mostly because you're so busy fighting amongst yourselves, you aren't seeing the forest for the trees. Uncle Milty used the oldest and simplest trick in the book, Divide and Conquer. And you guys just let him do it. He's taking his millions and laughing to the bank. So are the hedge funds that sponsored the whole 'restructuring' thing.
So here's Westjet, the airline you guys love to mock, love to belittle, not just on the internet, but in the terminals across our country. I'm not going to say some of our guys haven't been exactly nice back, but you know how it goes, the testosterone get's flowing, and before you know it there's a pissing contest. Some people take themselves a little too seriously, no matter where they work, I guess.
Tony, it seems you can't through your unionized, management-hating mind is, how could it be that an airline could exist, or for that matter how is it possible any company could exist that the employee and the employer work together to reach a common goal? You don't understand how, in your words(just another airline job) that a company could operate the same type of equipment, the same type of service, but with the fraction of the amount of employees completing the same mission. How is that possible, you wonder? Hmm, must be management extorting the worker, stealing money from the employee, off the backs of the employee, right? Couldn't be that because of the good relationship with employees that management is able to create incentives for not dog-fucking at work? Able to motivate the workforce in a positive way? Nope, not you and your kind. Must be a trick, must be something in the water, must be fucking brainwashing! YA, THAT's IT! Newsflash:We have pride in what we do, what we are, but all you see is arrogance; so be it. We're excited to come to work, we enjoy what we do, and we remember who truly pays the bills, but you see brainwashing. We don't catch shit from our union boss or management when we take the bull by the horns and wow and amaze a 'guest'(aka passenger to you). Giving excellent customer service IS part of our job description, but it isn't written down because we don't feel the need to write that sort of thing down. We are allowed to show initiative, it's actually praised when we do. Hell, I even pushed a wheelchair all the way to customs in YYZ not long ago when the purple jackets didn't bother to show up; a flight attendant pulled my bags while I pushed a wheelchair a mile, whodathunk?!
The best part is when our hard work pays off, not only during the profit sharing party(yes, it is a party), but every time we sell shares and pocket the cash, 4 times a year.(not just pilots, but ANYONE in the company). Oh yes, the wages. The wages must be in the dirt. Haha, yeah, that's it. I'll go with what I know here, Tony. I'd be willing to bet your precious union is using the WJ pilots as an example, a template, as to why they should be paid more, am I right? If they haven't, they will.
Yup, I'm just another pilot, doing a pilot's job. Nothing special there, you're right. I never claimed that it was special. I never claimed I was special, what I said I was part of some thing special. Some Thing. I don't expect you to ever get it Tony, and it wasn't for your arrogance, I'd feel bad that you won't get it, either. If it wasn't for you(and I mean your shitty attitude), I'd actually try to help you see it, but you don't, and you won't. Just sit there and tick off the years you have left before you can collect that fat pension(if it's still around, what's the deficit these days Tony?), and hope that you won't have to update the resume one more time before you retire.

The people who do 'get it' either already work here, or are trying to get in. It's a way of thinking, Tony, and not everyone get's it, so I don't blame you for not getting it. It's ok, man you have your way, and I have mine. I have no problem with that either, apples and oranges after all.

[alpha474]

dear four1oh.... here's to you
Im not from any of the two big airlines, hell im not even from canada. I fly in the south east, where the locals expats come and snigger at anything and everything the airlines have to offer. right from the villas they recieve and the 13000 a month TAX FREE they get... mainly because as for money goes, it's never enough... and they all feel management is still hiding away the real stash somewhere else....

Out of interest i've been hovering around this forum and I am utterly impressed by the sheer passion you all exude at westjet. Its true that what you get in the bank isnt something special, but i guess the spirit that runs through westjet, is something so special and unique, its second to no one....

Well, so as a complete neutral witness to this whole discussion, i do concede that IMHO...Westjet IS the airline of choice for any young pilot (atleast from a work environment standpoint), and that 3down&loct is a lucky man to be in company of such motivated professionals....
well done.

[Tim Tam]

Newsflash:We have pride in what we do, what we are, but all you see is arrogance; so be it. We're excited to come to work, we enjoy what we do, and we remember who truly pays the bills

You know, I LOVE this job. Coming from a prop job, this is what I imagined a jet job to be like.

But...after the gloss of a few flights, it ends up just being a job. You start to think of the truly important things like friends, family, getting drunk on the weekend...you know, just the important things.

What I DO NOT LIKE, is the constant push to save a buck here, save a buck there attitude. I had a captain give me sh*t for using an extra Acars message. Really? I am all for being frugal, but nittpicking for every penny is getting long in the tooth.

It seems that some (not all) of the folks here are watching each other with hawk-eyes to make sure that everyone is saving every last penny, and if they don't, well, they either let them know, or complain to someone else behind their back about them. It makes me feel like I am living at home with dear old Mom and Pop.

It is this same old attitude that prevents the new hires from getting a hotel during initial groundschool. If it means an extra $27 per profit share cheque "FOR US", then screw them, they are on their own.

There are certain costs to running a business. This should be one of them. Just like having a parking pass at the airport, or pizza parties for profit share. No one has nixxed those yet, but how long do we go before someone says "Hey, that's my $1.15 towards my profit share!"

I for one do not wish that Westjet will become a place where you need to watch your back at every turn because someone is waiting to rat you out for having an extra glass of water during the flight..

And please folks, do not tell me to leave, or that I should have never joined, because if you go to the top, read what I wrote. I love this job and do it the best I can. But, in the end it is just my job.

Rant over.

Cue: Four1oh or Flightlevels.........

[Four1oh]

Well thought out post Tim Tam, don't worry, I only bite when riled. I understand what you mean about 'misguided' caring about things that don't matter, ie: ACARS messages. WJ pays a fixed rate per month for a certain volume of messages, and i've been told on several occasions by guys who know, that we're no where close to being near the monthly limit. Having said that, paper costs money, and maybe we don't have to hit the print button so often. Other examples of the past(maybe presently too) of turning off the reading lights on a turn-around because it 'costs electricity'. While the cost involved maybe be a longer life of the bulb if they're turned off when not in use. But you have to remember it's that cost-saving attitude that helps out more than it hinders, and that's what it's all about. Those nit-picky _______(insert job description: pilots, fa's, csa's) maybe need to be set straight as it doesn't take much for a misconception to turn into a rumour to turn into an urban legend.

btw, alpha474 thanks for the compliment.

[ivanhoe]

Let's get our facts straight.

Acars messages are at a fixed rate per month....except ATIS (for sure)

and I believe WX requests. We pay for those.

It bothers me somewhat that some are taking an attitude that the small stuff does'nt matter anymore. It does and more importantly it is that attitude that can lead us all down a slippery slope. What's that old saying...watch the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves.

We are in a BRUTAL industry and we need to watch every cent. Especially these days.

[Rebel]

Let's get our facts straight.

Acars messages are at a fixed rate per month....except ATIS (for sure)

and I believe WX requests. We pay for those.

It bothers me somewhat that some are taking an attitude that the small stuff does'nt matter anymore. It does and more importantly it is that attitude that can lead us all down a slippery slope. What's that old saying...watch the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves.

We are in a BRUTAL industry and we need to watch every cent. Especially these days.

A little story, I pushed a wheelchair up to the YYZ customs hall, as there was wasn't enough gate agent's to handle the number of wheelchairs and it was a late night flight. This is the surprising difference in the treatment Four1oh’s received and mine... An AC gate agent stopped and informed that I was lucky not to be reported for doing a job that was not my job description. Oh and I had to go back to the gate and pick up my own luggage. Sad but true…

Tell me again how great unions are...

[CanadaEH]

It bothers me somewhat that some are taking an attitude that the small stuff does'nt matter anymore. It does and more importantly it is that attitude that can lead us all down a slippery slope. What's that old saying...watch the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves.

I've been with Westjet for 6 years and the one thing that's never escaped my mind is costs. I might be a prick every now and then about what we spend our money on and I sure don't agree with a lot of the cost saving "initiatives" that are put in place, but at least I understand the power our company yields with its low costs. We need people that - as you say - "watch the pennies" because if we don't we just become another casualty of this extremely fickle industry. To see where we sit compared to the rest of the airlines in this world is pretty impressive.

[Four1oh]

Let's get our facts straight.

Acars messages are at a fixed rate per month....except ATIS (for sure)

and I believe WX requests. We pay for those.

It bothers me somewhat that some are taking an attitude that the small stuff does'nt matter anymore. It does and more importantly it is that attitude that can lead us all down a slippery slope. What's that old saying...watch the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves.

We are in a BRUTAL industry and we need to watch every cent. Especially these days.

as usual, I stand corrected.

[Four1oh]

Let's get our facts straight.

Acars messages are at a fixed rate per month....except ATIS (for sure)

and I believe WX requests. We pay for those.

It bothers me somewhat that some are taking an attitude that the small stuff does'nt matter anymore. It does and more importantly it is that attitude that can lead us all down a slippery slope. What's that old saying...watch the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves.

We are in a BRUTAL industry and we need to watch every cent. Especially these days.

A little story, I pushed a wheelchair up to the YYZ customs hall, as there was wasn't enough gate agent's to handle the number of wheelchairs and it was a late night flight. This is the surprising difference in the treatment Four1oh’s received and mine... An AC gate agent stopped and informed that I was lucky not to be reported for doing a job that was not my job description. Oh and I had to go back to the gate and pick up my own luggage. Sad but true…

Tell me again how great unions are...

sorry about your experience, Rebel. That sucks when you aren't even allowed to be a decent human being to another without the threat of being written up.

[MS737]

I was just in ground school, was told that just the ATIS request was extra. Every other ACARS including Forecast and Actual Wx was included in the package. The ATIS is extra because it comes from some company in the States. Was also told we were not using anywhere near the actual data limit. Med-link is a fixed cost so use it as often as you'd like, but that was another topic.
Cheers.

[Rebel]

[

Hey I admire the way WJ employees can go about their duties without having to fight with their fellow employees just to do the job right and productively. It’s my opinion if you see something that has to be done and you feel that you can do safely, “just do it” without fear of been written up by some incompetent union zealot.

Trying to save your company money by doing common sense things is a no brainier but unfortunately the union mentality is something very different. The rules books are written for the minority that has no common sense that’s why the incompetent always hide behind the rules.

If all AC employees had the same attitude as WJ employees, wow look out…

[A330]

Refreshing to hear Tim Tam's honest internal assessment of WJ. I would think it's what many really think but few would come out and say...reasonable costs savings is one thing but over the top references to the constant " profit share" nickel and dimes is another.

I was looking at WJ years ago, but a friend told me a story after leaving only months later.....young WJ captain taxing at 45 knots, question: Are we on fire? a: What do you mean? q: We are taxing at 45 knots on one engine and I'm feeling a little uncomfortable...a: two words for ya, pal, Profit Share....

[Four1oh]

Refreshing to hear Tim Tam's honest internal assessment of WJ. I would think it's what many really think but few would come out and say...reasonable costs savings is one thing but over the top references to the constant " profit share" nickel and dimes is another.

I was looking at WJ years ago, but a friend told me a story after leaving only months later.....young WJ captain taxing at 45 knots, question: Are we on fire? a: What do you mean? q: We are taxing at 45 knots on one engine and I'm feeling a little uncomfortable...a: two words for ya, pal, Profit Share....

His answer was ignorant, and definitely in the minority. Obviously. What happens to profit share if he smashes that plane into the terminal, or another plane, or drives off the taxiway? Embarrassment, more headlines, costs of fixing a plane, costs of training his replacement...

[Rotten Apple #1]

young WJ captain taxing at 45 knots

Dude, SOP violations are SOP violations. Sure, sometimes people get their priorities cocked up. I stand guilty as charged. But that's human nature, the will to strive, in a positive reinforcement environment. See 'Biology 101'. Your buddy's responsibility was quite clear; what exactly did he do?

Can't wait to see what other great life decisions you've made based on one account of one person's anecdote. True or not, is that really the criteria you use?

JD

[Squid]

lol 330,

I was thinking about going to Transat - but I heard they landed in the azores with no engines...then I was thinking about AC, then I heard about them landing in YFC and going ski dooing...wait I am here..oops. Then I was thinking about C3 then I heard they ran outta cash...then I was thinking about Canjet and georgian and bearskin and Royal...get my drift u putz.

[A330]

I always enjoy the narrow minded response usually based on one one comment or sentence......you get the scope of the subject. Cost savings; great. over the top penny pinching, to which one of yours, Tim Tam feels like he still lives with his parents: another.

[Bones]

Good day all,
Long time reader, first time poster.
After reading a couple of the later posts on this thread I can't stop myself from adding my $0.02 regarding the "union" mentality comments...

I've been an a.m.e. for WJ for the last 3 or so years. The whole reason I applied with WJ was because I had heard that it was able to maintain a "small company" attitude, and that even though we have these "employee numbers", we're not treated as such. If that even makes any sense.

Before I go any further, understand that I like my job here and that I still consider it the best job to have in this area.

I'm not the kind of guy that does something just to get rewarded. I like to see the result of hard work pay off. I don't stand around and watch someone struggle with something just because it's got nothing to do with me, I'll go lend a hand.


Or at least crack a joke to try to lighten the mood.

In the short time that I've been here though I can say that, unfortunately, more and more INDIVIDUALS seem to be taking the AC/union approach and, as was mentioned before, given others trouble for helping because THEY DIDN'T do their OWN job.

I applaud the pilot that pushed the wheelchair, and the FA for actually helping a bit too and carrying his bags. But aren't those the things that you should just DO?

I personally know guys that have been REPORTED (like on record. disciplinary action) for helping with bridging aircraft when either the ground crew/baggage smashers were short staffed or a CSA wasn't at the gate for whatever reason. Who does that? There's no reason we can't help with that stuff, because after all, we do it every night when we have the whole airport to ourselves because most normal people are in bed.

I always thought that a "thank you" was more in order if someone helped take the load off of ME.

What I find funny is that when there's a problem that's NOT in our jurisdiction, we get called for help. Like if the bridges we're "not trained" on malfunction, etc. I could go on and on and ON with examples, but I'm really endeavoring to keep this short.

It's pretty tough to maintain an "all for one..." approach when B/S like this happens and you're getting sold out by your own. It really bothers me to stand around and watch this stuff, so I still go ahead and pitch in anyway. Most of the time, you get a "thank you", most people still get it. But I can honestly say that if I'm ever going to get fired for just helping out, they won't have the opportunity. I'll quit first.

It's probably the kick in the ass I need to go back to school and get a REAL job anyway!

[Flying Nutcracker]

Did anyone say "common courtesy"??? Well said Bones! It's funny how every process of getting a job involves your ability to prove to the recruiters that you are a team player and focus on being part of a team, but when you get hired you realise that teamwork means dog eat dog if you help the other team... sad state of affairs! Common sense is dissapating in this industry, and I think it stems from a frustrated work force faced with an uncertain future... The rub-off factor is huge when it comes to negativity. How about rubbing off some positive initiative and actually try to make an effort in helping the situation ourselves instead of playing the "we don't trust our management" cards all the time?

What was the topic again???

FN

[Four1oh]

In the short time that I've been here though I can say that, unfortunately, more and more INDIVIDUALS seem to be taking the AC/union approach and, as was mentioned before, given others trouble for helping because THEY DIDN'T do their OWN job.

I hope that isn't a trend, and, depending on 'why' it's happening, maybe there are specific examples where it may be a bad thing to go above and beyond in certain examples.

I applaud the pilot that pushed the wheelchair, and the FA for actually helping a bit too and carrying his bags. But aren't those the things that you should just DO?

not in YYZ. because of the heavy unionization of airport employees in YYZ, the purple coats are 'supposed' to push wheelchairs, and have been known to cause trouble when a CSA, FA, or Pilot has 'helped out' when they were slow, or late.

I personally know guys that have been REPORTED (like on record. disciplinary action) for helping with bridging aircraft when either the ground crew/baggage smashers were short staffed or a CSA wasn't at the gate for whatever reason. Who does that? There's no reason we can't help with that stuff, because after all, we do it every night when we have the whole airport to ourselves because most normal people are in bed.

Isn't that a safety issue? Are you guys officially trained to bridge the plane? This smells of a 'liability issue' here more than anything else. Are we insured if someone gets hurt when an AME bridges a plane? Probably a different story when the plane's empty, and no guests are around. Believe me, I wish it was ok for you guys to do that, since there's nothing worse than getting in early, and there's no bridge driver present. I think the same thing goes for marshaling in a plane. I'm sure we all could do it, we see it often enough, but when the shit hits the fan, there's no protection if someone gets hurt or something gets damaged. A while back, there was a pilot memo after a pilot took it upon himself to marshal a plane to a gate when he saw that there were no ground crew in sight. It's great to see that kind of caring, but in that case it was a bad judgement call on the pilot-marshaler's part.

I always thought that a "thank you" was more in order if someone helped take the load off of ME.
What I find funny is that when there's a problem that's NOT in our jurisdiction, we get called for help. Like if the bridges we're "not trained" on malfunction, etc. I could go on and on and ON with examples, but I'm really endeavoring to keep this short.

THANK YOU!!

It's pretty tough to maintain an "all for one..." approach when B/S like this happens and you're getting sold out by your own. It really bothers me to stand around and watch this stuff, so I still go ahead and pitch in anyway. Most of the time, you get a "thank you", most people still get it.

Another reason why we're at such a great company, as so many still do what needs to be done when they see the need.

But I can honestly say that if I'm ever going to get fired for just helping out, they won't have the opportunity. I'll quit first.

I hope it never comes to that, and I'm sure the good experiences outweigh the bad by a large margin, correct me if I'm wrong here. Cheers man, keep the faith!

[Bones]

not in YYZ. because of the heavy unionization of airport employees in YYZ, the purple coats are 'supposed' to push wheelchairs, and have been known to cause trouble when a CSA, FA, or Pilot has 'helped out' when they were slow, or late.

Ok, didn't know that. But that's also part of my point, and the root of the problem it seems. To hell with purple people. (Any Mitch Hedberg fans out there? Anyone? Oh well).

Isn't that a safety issue? Are you guys officially trained to bridge the plane? This smells of a 'liability issue' here more than anything else. Are we insured if someone gets hurt when an AME bridges a plane? Probably a different story when the plane's empty, and no guests are around. Believe me, I wish it was ok for you guys to do that, since there's nothing worse than getting in early, and there's no bridge driver present. I think the same thing goes for marshaling in a plane. I'm sure we all could do it, we see it often enough, but when the shit hits the fan, there's no protection if someone gets hurt or something gets damaged. A while back, there was a pilot memo after a pilot took it upon himself to marshal a plane to a gate when he saw that there were no ground crew in sight. It's great to see that kind of caring, but in that case it was a bad judgement call on the pilot-marshaler's part.

I agree with this too. So let's have a CSA ready to rock at all hours then. Or "train" us (honestly, could it really be that hard? Some of us actually have HAD the training!). I'm fine with either one.
As for the marshaling thing... It seems to me that it gets covered during training (college) in the same way as "lefty loosey righty tighty". Could be wrong, but I also seem to remember from ground school (private pilot) learning the marshaling signals then too. I realize that insurance/liability requirements aren't always real-world compatible, but this sort of thing should also be made WELL KNOWN. What if something actually DID happen when/if I was waving someone in? I doubt very much that WJA would have my back in any way.

Seems to me that the company has training/communication issues they need to sort out. There should be less emphasis on the cult atmosphere and more on things like this. At least for us anyways. And some consistency too, because I've also heard of cases where people at one base get a "kudos" for something that another guy got shit on for elsewhere. It's pretty tough to know where you stand.

And thanks for not giving me both barrels and "flaming" me, I was expecting that to happen based on what I've seen on this site!