Logging Instrument Time
Moderators: Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, I WAS Birddog
I think the point I'm getting at Cat, is that it is a lot more taxing on the pilot to be on the guages when you're in IMC, because you can't take a break from the scan (unless of course you have an autopilot, or a co-pilot!)
At least if you're in VMC, you can (and must) be looking outside at least some of the time, giving you a break from staring at the guages. With around 2500 hours, I may only have a fraction of your time and experience...but straight and level flight in VMC just isn't that tough to me! Forgive me for being fecetious, but if I remember correctly from my instructing days it is...the first air lesson. Besides how accurate are we talking about here shouldn't we all be able to track a course with less than 1 mile of x-track error or plus or minus 100'?
So, a little informal poll. How many of you guys (the term is gender inclusive) feel more tired at the end of the day. After flying IFR all day in VMC and vice-versa. I know my answer to that one!
PS For the guy that mentioned 400.01, thanks for the reference! I am going to take a look at it, although it seems pretty straight forward, just from your post. I also like the idea of keeping track of 'IFR' time to show that you have some experience flying the system.
Cheers!
At least if you're in VMC, you can (and must) be looking outside at least some of the time, giving you a break from staring at the guages. With around 2500 hours, I may only have a fraction of your time and experience...but straight and level flight in VMC just isn't that tough to me! Forgive me for being fecetious, but if I remember correctly from my instructing days it is...the first air lesson. Besides how accurate are we talking about here shouldn't we all be able to track a course with less than 1 mile of x-track error or plus or minus 100'?
So, a little informal poll. How many of you guys (the term is gender inclusive) feel more tired at the end of the day. After flying IFR all day in VMC and vice-versa. I know my answer to that one!
PS For the guy that mentioned 400.01, thanks for the reference! I am going to take a look at it, although it seems pretty straight forward, just from your post. I also like the idea of keeping track of 'IFR' time to show that you have some experience flying the system.
Cheers!
"Hell, I'll fly up your ass if the money's right!"
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
Uh oh...turns out 400.01 isn't as clear as you thought.
"instrument time" means
(amended 2001/03/01; no previous version)
(a) instrument ground time,
(b) actual instrument flight time, or
(c) simulated instrument flight time; (temps aux instruments)
I don't see any reference to IMC, so I guess it is quite muddy!
"instrument time" means
(amended 2001/03/01; no previous version)
(a) instrument ground time,
(b) actual instrument flight time, or
(c) simulated instrument flight time; (temps aux instruments)
I don't see any reference to IMC, so I guess it is quite muddy!
"Hell, I'll fly up your ass if the money's right!"
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
I agree, 400.01 only outlines what "instrument time" means, and not what "actual instrument flight time" means.
But it would make sense that with all three methods of instrument time would involve flying while relying on the instruments as the only attitude reference. Whether it be in a sim, with a hood, or in cloud. That's just my interpretation.
There are other sections of the CARs that use the term "IMC" with "actual" implying that they are one and the same thing. Example would be CARs 421.46 (2)(b)(D).
But i agree the definition of "actual instrument flight time" doesn't seem to be clearly defined, but i would interpret it as the time in any IMC.
Gand
But it would make sense that with all three methods of instrument time would involve flying while relying on the instruments as the only attitude reference. Whether it be in a sim, with a hood, or in cloud. That's just my interpretation.
There are other sections of the CARs that use the term "IMC" with "actual" implying that they are one and the same thing. Example would be CARs 421.46 (2)(b)(D).
But i agree the definition of "actual instrument flight time" doesn't seem to be clearly defined, but i would interpret it as the time in any IMC.
Gand
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Cat Driver
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Bear with me here troops, and let me try once again to explain where I, am coming from in this discussion.
There are three methods of determining aircraft attitude in relation to the earth when you are flying.
(1) VFR
(2) IFR
(3) A combination of both, which incidentially we all do subconsciously each time we fly.
I do not " SCAN " the instruments to determine spatial orientation, I use the whole picture and if there is a change in the position of any instrument such as if for instance the big needle on the altimiter wanders off the O at the top of the instrument it will trigger my awarensee of a change , even if it is in my peripherial vision it will be evident that it is out of place.
In sync with the broad picture we also subconsciously "read " changes of sound and or changes of direction by the trigger mechanism in the inner ear which is our gyro that allows us to walk erect rather than crawl on hands and knees.
The biggest barrier to accurate natural flying is not being relaxed and spatially aware of where you are driving the aircraft, resulting in unneeded stress trying to form the picture of where your aircraft is in relation to path that you have projected ahead of you in time and space.
Over consentration on to many items will result in the task becoming " difficult " conversely being relaxed and understanding all the nunances of the big picture will result in a much more accurate and relaxed handling of the device that you are in control of.
I am sort of in a hurry right now as I am trying to help a customer find a Yak or a Nanchang that he wants to buy so I can teach his wife how to fly now that she has received her permit to learn...the PPL.
I will post this without really perusing it closely so if you want me to try and explain my methods of flying, teaching etc feel free to question and or disagree with anything that I babble on about here..
If we search long enough and deep enough we can only enhance our knowledge of any subject...thus improving our ability to accept, question or cull anything that we find.
Cat
There are three methods of determining aircraft attitude in relation to the earth when you are flying.
(1) VFR
(2) IFR
(3) A combination of both, which incidentially we all do subconsciously each time we fly.
I do not " SCAN " the instruments to determine spatial orientation, I use the whole picture and if there is a change in the position of any instrument such as if for instance the big needle on the altimiter wanders off the O at the top of the instrument it will trigger my awarensee of a change , even if it is in my peripherial vision it will be evident that it is out of place.
In sync with the broad picture we also subconsciously "read " changes of sound and or changes of direction by the trigger mechanism in the inner ear which is our gyro that allows us to walk erect rather than crawl on hands and knees.
The biggest barrier to accurate natural flying is not being relaxed and spatially aware of where you are driving the aircraft, resulting in unneeded stress trying to form the picture of where your aircraft is in relation to path that you have projected ahead of you in time and space.
Over consentration on to many items will result in the task becoming " difficult " conversely being relaxed and understanding all the nunances of the big picture will result in a much more accurate and relaxed handling of the device that you are in control of.
I am sort of in a hurry right now as I am trying to help a customer find a Yak or a Nanchang that he wants to buy so I can teach his wife how to fly now that she has received her permit to learn...the PPL.
I will post this without really perusing it closely so if you want me to try and explain my methods of flying, teaching etc feel free to question and or disagree with anything that I babble on about here..
If we search long enough and deep enough we can only enhance our knowledge of any subject...thus improving our ability to accept, question or cull anything that we find.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Apparently there is some formula out there to determine if your actual time logged is reasonable when compared to your total time. I've never come across it but heard some employers use this when looking at resumes.
Now, take flying in the Arctic during the dead of winter....even if its "VFR" you're almost always flying by your instruments...so that to me says you can log it...
Be reasonable though....don't log every trip as IMC.
Now, take flying in the Arctic during the dead of winter....even if its "VFR" you're almost always flying by your instruments...so that to me says you can log it...
Be reasonable though....don't log every trip as IMC.
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Check Pilot
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On the guages or not - does it really count? BS in the log book only hurts you.
As follows:
Let’s get real folks! Pilots need to be exposed to actual flying to develop the motor skills, flow patterns, and habits that are used sub-consciously by experienced pilots. While training in simulators is known to be superior in many ways to training in an airplane, at some point, the pilot needs to get out in the real world and do some actual flying. This allows full integration and correlation of skill and knowledge in a real-time flight scenario. The result of such training and experience is the development of the “spare mental capacity” that is required to deal with the situations and contingencies that are inherent to all flights.
At the commercial pilot level (new pilot), these newly learned skills are well honed for local operations. But the pilot has very little experience in the IFR system, all weather IMC operations, “complex” aircraft operations, high-density airport operations, mountain flying, bush flying, etc. The new pilot will quickly find that all the “simulation” or local training in the world cannot prepare him or her for the tasks at hand.
This rampant logging of questionable flight time hurts not only those who are scrupulously honest in logging their time accurately, but also hurts those who log this “bogus” time. Yes, flight time is one of the means used by airlines to select pilots. This is unfortunate, as flight time does not always reflect quality or breadth of experience, but it is the reality of the current hiring situation. It might look good on a resume but if you pad the numbers when the crunch comes, will you have the confidence in yourself that the situation is just annoyingly abnormal or is it now an emergency? Where is that spare mental capacity when just merely keeping the navigation squared away is extremely challenging?
Please, Instructors, make sure you lead the way in promoting integrity in your students’ logging of flight time. If you, as an Instructor, go about teaching a brand new pilot how to be honest about logging time, IFR or otherwise, you are teaching that new guy a tremendous skill – honesty. It’ll pay in spades later on down the road. If you don’t they may fall flat on their butts when put to the test. If that test is “for real” in an airplane, people will die.
As follows:
Let’s get real folks! Pilots need to be exposed to actual flying to develop the motor skills, flow patterns, and habits that are used sub-consciously by experienced pilots. While training in simulators is known to be superior in many ways to training in an airplane, at some point, the pilot needs to get out in the real world and do some actual flying. This allows full integration and correlation of skill and knowledge in a real-time flight scenario. The result of such training and experience is the development of the “spare mental capacity” that is required to deal with the situations and contingencies that are inherent to all flights.
At the commercial pilot level (new pilot), these newly learned skills are well honed for local operations. But the pilot has very little experience in the IFR system, all weather IMC operations, “complex” aircraft operations, high-density airport operations, mountain flying, bush flying, etc. The new pilot will quickly find that all the “simulation” or local training in the world cannot prepare him or her for the tasks at hand.
This rampant logging of questionable flight time hurts not only those who are scrupulously honest in logging their time accurately, but also hurts those who log this “bogus” time. Yes, flight time is one of the means used by airlines to select pilots. This is unfortunate, as flight time does not always reflect quality or breadth of experience, but it is the reality of the current hiring situation. It might look good on a resume but if you pad the numbers when the crunch comes, will you have the confidence in yourself that the situation is just annoyingly abnormal or is it now an emergency? Where is that spare mental capacity when just merely keeping the navigation squared away is extremely challenging?
Please, Instructors, make sure you lead the way in promoting integrity in your students’ logging of flight time. If you, as an Instructor, go about teaching a brand new pilot how to be honest about logging time, IFR or otherwise, you are teaching that new guy a tremendous skill – honesty. It’ll pay in spades later on down the road. If you don’t they may fall flat on their butts when put to the test. If that test is “for real” in an airplane, people will die.
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Check Pilot
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On the guages or not - does it really count? BS in the log book only hurts you.
As follows:
Let’s get real folks! Pilots need to be exposed to actual flying to develop the motor skills, flow patterns, and habits that are used sub-consciously by experienced pilots. While training in simulators is known to be superior in many ways to training in an airplane, at some point, the pilot needs to get out in the real world and do some actual flying. This allows full integration and correlation of skill and knowledge in a real-time flight scenario. The result of such training and experience is the development of the “spare mental capacity” that is required to deal with the situations and contingencies that are inherent to all flights.
At the commercial pilot level (new pilot), these newly learned skills are well honed for local operations. But the pilot has very little experience in the IFR system, all weather IMC operations, “complex” aircraft operations, high-density airport operations, mountain flying, bush flying, etc. The new pilot will quickly find that all the “simulation” or local training in the world cannot prepare him or her for the tasks at hand.
This rampant logging of questionable flight time hurts not only those who are scrupulously honest in logging their time accurately, but also hurts those who log this “bogus” time. Yes, flight time is one of the means used by airlines to select pilots. This is unfortunate, as flight time does not always reflect quality or breadth of experience, but it is the reality of the current hiring situation. It might look good on a resume but if you pad the numbers when the crunch comes, will you have the confidence in yourself that the situation is just annoyingly abnormal or is it now an emergency? Where is that spare mental capacity when just merely keeping the navigation squared away is extremely challenging?
Please, Instructors, make sure you lead the way in promoting integrity in your students’ logging of flight time. If you, as an Instructor, go about teaching a brand new pilot how to be honest about logging time, IFR or otherwise, you are teaching that new guy a tremendous skill – honesty. It’ll pay in spades later on down the road. If you don’t they may fall flat on their butts when put to the test. If that test is “for real” in an airplane, people will die.
As follows:
Let’s get real folks! Pilots need to be exposed to actual flying to develop the motor skills, flow patterns, and habits that are used sub-consciously by experienced pilots. While training in simulators is known to be superior in many ways to training in an airplane, at some point, the pilot needs to get out in the real world and do some actual flying. This allows full integration and correlation of skill and knowledge in a real-time flight scenario. The result of such training and experience is the development of the “spare mental capacity” that is required to deal with the situations and contingencies that are inherent to all flights.
At the commercial pilot level (new pilot), these newly learned skills are well honed for local operations. But the pilot has very little experience in the IFR system, all weather IMC operations, “complex” aircraft operations, high-density airport operations, mountain flying, bush flying, etc. The new pilot will quickly find that all the “simulation” or local training in the world cannot prepare him or her for the tasks at hand.
This rampant logging of questionable flight time hurts not only those who are scrupulously honest in logging their time accurately, but also hurts those who log this “bogus” time. Yes, flight time is one of the means used by airlines to select pilots. This is unfortunate, as flight time does not always reflect quality or breadth of experience, but it is the reality of the current hiring situation. It might look good on a resume but if you pad the numbers when the crunch comes, will you have the confidence in yourself that the situation is just annoyingly abnormal or is it now an emergency? Where is that spare mental capacity when just merely keeping the navigation squared away is extremely challenging?
Please, Instructors, make sure you lead the way in promoting integrity in your students’ logging of flight time. If you, as an Instructor, go about teaching a brand new pilot how to be honest about logging time, IFR or otherwise, you are teaching that new guy a tremendous skill – honesty. It’ll pay in spades later on down the road. If you don’t they may fall flat on their butts when put to the test. If that test is “for real” in an airplane, people will die.
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Check Pilot
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You just don't get it do you. The next rung on your step up the ladder of fuselage hugging is right in front of you isn't it. As long as it's for you, you'll keep on disappointing your peers and then the boss when you either cause a big media distubance or the insurance rates go up for your boss. Best of luck in the future bunky.
Currency
6 6 6
six hours of IMC,six approaches,in the previous six months to be legal was a rule at one time .The purpose of correctly logging the time was so the pilot could assess if it was safe to fly IMC under ifr rules.
How many of you would like to fly a NDB approach to minimums on a dark bumpy night ,with the only recent experience on the dials, in your imagination or bic time .
Currency, are you currant on type ,class, ifr? if you keep an honest log you can tell if you are current at a glance and save yourself a lot of grief, if you find yourself somewhere you ought not to be .
The rules can keep you safe and happy only if you know them.
6 6 6
six hours of IMC,six approaches,in the previous six months to be legal was a rule at one time .The purpose of correctly logging the time was so the pilot could assess if it was safe to fly IMC under ifr rules.
How many of you would like to fly a NDB approach to minimums on a dark bumpy night ,with the only recent experience on the dials, in your imagination or bic time .
Currency, are you currant on type ,class, ifr? if you keep an honest log you can tell if you are current at a glance and save yourself a lot of grief, if you find yourself somewhere you ought not to be .
The rules can keep you safe and happy only if you know them.
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Northern Girl
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Actual
Hey Darkhorse - you ever wanna fly for an overseas company?? Lets imagine that your goal in aviation was to fly for Cathay Pacific - you are sitting in the interview with 4000 hours of which you have logged 3000 IFR actual. Hmmmmmmm............you are going to be real embarassed by their response to that. They will be looking for around 10% actual or perhaps a little more considering the winter wx in Canada. Any more than that will make them suspicious which will carry over to everything else you have logged/said.
If you never want to fly outside Canada - then log whatever. But I am in full agreement with Check Pilot.
Thats my 4 cents worth IMHO.
If you never want to fly outside Canada - then log whatever. But I am in full agreement with Check Pilot.
Thats my 4 cents worth IMHO.
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talkinghead
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Northern Girl
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IMHO
Dont shoot the messanger - I think it is important for people to be aware of differing thoughts on the matter.
Everyone must make their own decision but it is good to know some general facts.
Good luck to all in the future.
Everyone must make their own decision but it is good to know some general facts.
Good luck to all in the future.
the best advice I could give you....take 10% of you total time, and make it ifr time....no one will ever check or ever care...it makes it much easier on you...you can even do it when you get closer to your ATPL.....thats what alot of people do..
so what I am saying is make it up at the end....don't worry about it on a day to day basis...good luck
so what I am saying is make it up at the end....don't worry about it on a day to day basis...good luck
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TOGA Descent
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Some of the European Authorities have clarified this one. They distinguish between IFR time, and IF time.
IFR being, that time spent operating in accordance with an IFR FLIGHT PLAN; and,
IF, being that time spent flying IN CLOUD.
Interestingly, a check of my logbook indicates that the IF time is almost exactly 11% of the IFR time.
IFR being, that time spent operating in accordance with an IFR FLIGHT PLAN; and,
IF, being that time spent flying IN CLOUD.
Interestingly, a check of my logbook indicates that the IF time is almost exactly 11% of the IFR time.
Rookie Airbus Crew… "What's it doing now?"
Veteran Airbus Crew… "It's doing it again!"
Veteran Airbus Crew… "It's doing it again!"
Re: Actual
10%? Where does that arbitrary figure come from? Cathay never questioned my IFR time and I log according to Cat's theory.Northern Girl wrote:Hey Darkhorse - you ever wanna fly for an overseas company?? Lets imagine that your goal in aviation was to fly for Cathay Pacific - you are sitting in the interview with 4000 hours of which you have logged 3000 IFR actual. Hmmmmmmm............you are going to be real embarassed by their response to that. They will be looking for around 10% actual or perhaps a little more considering the winter wx in Canada. Any more than that will make them suspicious which will carry over to everything else you have logged/said.
If you never want to fly outside Canada - then log whatever. But I am in full agreement with Check Pilot.
Thats my 4 cents worth IMHO.
If they did question it I would just honestly explain my time and not try to make it appear if it all occurred IMC.
It seems to me, that there should be more important things to be concerning yourself with whilst aviating than timing how long you are in cloud.
So IFR time is logged as simulated when not in cloud, actual when in? Or do you create another column to log IFR time in general?TOGA Descent wrote: Interestingly, a check of my logbook indicates that the IF time is almost exactly 11% of the IFR time.
In talking with my boss, he figures that simulated should only get logged when wearing a view-limiter, and that it's not right for me to log instrument time unless I'm in cloud with a student...I'm not buying it. I'm going to ask a guy I know who was in on the CARs when they were developed and see what he has to say. I'll post his reply on Monday or Tuesday.
So when (I'm optimistic!) I land a job with an FMS equipped machine, should I log IMC the whole time I'm in cloud even though I'm not hand flying? Or, whenever the autopilot is on in the aircraft I'm flying does it get to log IMC when it's flying in cloud and not me (ps: I'm not being serious here)? The more I look into this mess the more I'm determining that there's no right answer. Thank god I can change my logbook easily if I have to.
Cat - just based on what should be, I completely agree with you. It seems bunk to me to suggest that IFR time shouldn't just get logged as actual. However, I'm (and I'm guessing a lot of the people on this forum)more concerned with the status quo and not necessarily what is the "right" thing to do. Sad, I know...but a lot of us just have to work with the system at this stage of our careers.
My god there's a lot of snow outside.
Pugster
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talkinghead
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TOGA Descent
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Here are the columns required under JAA (European system)...
Single Pilot Hours: (Single Engine)
Single Pilot Hours: (Multi Engine)
Multi Pilot hours: (Assumes Multi Engine)
Total flight Hours :
Landings Day:(As the Flying/ Handling Pilot)
Landings Night:(As the Flying/ Handling Pilot)
Night Hours:
IFR Hours (Flight Plan)
PIC Hours
SIC Hours
Dual Hours
instructor Hours
IF Hours (in cloud)
NAV Hours (Navigator - if req'd)
Sim Hours (Self Explainatory)
Hope this makes sence out of it for you, from the JAA perspective. TC, you'll get more answers than the JAA system has columns!
Single Pilot Hours: (Single Engine)
Single Pilot Hours: (Multi Engine)
Multi Pilot hours: (Assumes Multi Engine)
Total flight Hours :
Landings Day:(As the Flying/ Handling Pilot)
Landings Night:(As the Flying/ Handling Pilot)
Night Hours:
IFR Hours (Flight Plan)
PIC Hours
SIC Hours
Dual Hours
instructor Hours
IF Hours (in cloud)
NAV Hours (Navigator - if req'd)
Sim Hours (Self Explainatory)
Hope this makes sence out of it for you, from the JAA perspective. TC, you'll get more answers than the JAA system has columns!
Last edited by TOGA Descent on Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rookie Airbus Crew… "What's it doing now?"
Veteran Airbus Crew… "It's doing it again!"
Veteran Airbus Crew… "It's doing it again!"
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Cat Driver
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" View-limiters,foggles whatever you call them, should all be in the garbage can. "
If any check pilot or Government check pilot wanted me to wear a hood or foggles or any unorthodox device I would politely refuse to allow them in the airplane except as a student or passenger.
Listen to me all you younguns reading this thread, when interviewing any pilot for employment I "never " look at their personal log book, I hire based on personality and attitude. If I'm inpressed and want to find out how skilled and safe they are it does not take long in the airplane.
CAR's and all the rest of the rules regulations SOP's etc. are guidelines and should be treated as such.
Ability is not found in log books.
jeeses I wish I were being paid for all this stuff.
Your friend and mentor...
Cat
If any check pilot or Government check pilot wanted me to wear a hood or foggles or any unorthodox device I would politely refuse to allow them in the airplane except as a student or passenger.
Listen to me all you younguns reading this thread, when interviewing any pilot for employment I "never " look at their personal log book, I hire based on personality and attitude. If I'm inpressed and want to find out how skilled and safe they are it does not take long in the airplane.
CAR's and all the rest of the rules regulations SOP's etc. are guidelines and should be treated as such.
Ability is not found in log books.
jeeses I wish I were being paid for all this stuff.
Your friend and mentor...
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Splitting hairs
Arent we the moral one...Check Pilot wrote:You just don't get it do you. The next rung on your step up the ladder of fuselage hugging is right in front of you isn't it. As long as it's for you, you'll keep on disappointing your peers and then the boss when you either cause a big media distubance or the insurance rates go up for your boss. Best of luck in the future bunky.
This is crazy... Lets see if we can split the hair into 4...If you file IFR and you fly the whole flight IFR but out of that only 20% of it was in cloud....Then you can only log that 20%... So in other words the actual work you did under IFR rules does not count, unless it was in the clouds..
So lets say I am flying VFR, and then I ask for special VFR into a control Zone. But in the area I am flying from into the zone is VFR... I continue and land at the airport... Am I flying under VFR or am I flying under Special VFR????
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TOGA Descent
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Re: Splitting hairs
Again, we see the benifits of the European system (JAA)...Darkhorse wrote:Arent we the moral one...Check Pilot wrote:You just don't get it do you. The next rung on your step up the ladder of fuselage hugging is right in front of you isn't it. As long as it's for you, you'll keep on disappointing your peers and then the boss when you either cause a big media distubance or the insurance rates go up for your boss. Best of luck in the future bunky.
This is crazy... Lets see if we can split the hair into 4...If you file IFR and you fly the whole flight IFR but out of that only 20% of it was in cloud....Then you can only log that 20%... So in other words the actual work you did under IFR rules does not count, unless it was in the clouds..
So lets say I am flying VFR, and then I ask for special VFR into a control Zone. But in the area I am flying from into the zone is VFR... I continue and land at the airport... Am I flying under VFR or am I flying under Special VFR????
Rookie Airbus Crew… "What's it doing now?"
Veteran Airbus Crew… "It's doing it again!"
Veteran Airbus Crew… "It's doing it again!"
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Check Pilot
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Darkhorse -
I’m not going to let you “red herring” this thing away and don’t tell me about the who’s got the “Mr. Moral” thing either, you young snot.
You blatantly made the statement that - Quote “as long as it is stamped in the log book.....who cares after that” - Unquote.
I don’t care how you log it or get it “stamped”. How about if you get your experience the old-fashioned way.
Go out and fly as PIC in an airplane you can handle. Learn it well. In whatever kind of weather- and frankly, I don’t care as long as you and the aeroplane are equipped. Oh yeah - and able to do it. And once again, I don’t care how you log it. Get it “stamped” if you need to.
Now that I’ve got your attention –
If you really want to move up in your chosen career path to whatever kind of fuselage you want to kiss or hug, here’s some advice:
Fly other airplanes. Learn their characteristics. Become a pro (this is a state of mind -- an attitude toward your profession). Flight instruction, while not involving a lot of “stick time”, will teach you more about flying than you have learned while obtaining your commercial pilot Licence. Pipeline patrol, sightseeing, aerial photography, skydiving operations (they jump, you stay in your seat), are all good for building experience. Get on with a charter operator. Fly night freight. Fly in the military for all I care. As you transition from one type to a more complex type (at a rate you can handle), you’ll build that elusive experience (which would be better measured by years, seasons and number of flights, rather than by hours). Not some “stamped” time in your log.
Therein lies the key to the stupid remarks about getting your time “stamped”. Nobody but you care about every decimal point from every flight you’ve ever done that you can show to a prospective employer. - Nobody! Your Chief Pilot will “stamp” your log without batting an eye. Why? - Your Chief Pilot does not give a fiddlers f##k about how may hours you spent on the gauges. He isn’t going to check it out now, is he? And everybody knows it! You want to know why? Because he, and nor does anyone else, really care about that inane and boring stuff. All he really cares about is that you either got the trip done safely or you made a decision to not go in the first place. So don’t tell me that logging some kind of time spent circling in special VFR or how many hours you had to plow through clouds means anything to anyone but yourself.
While we’re on the issue of experience, let’s cut through all the crap that you hear about type ratings. At 250 hours you’ve got as much business being in command of a Citation, Beechjet, BE1900, or B-737, as you do in command of the Space Shuttle. Yup. That’s what I said. “In Command”. That means you’re “it”. You are the final authority as to the conduct of the flight. You help to create a comfortable, well-run flight-deck. You contribute. You listen. You discuss. You direct. You teach. You learn. You fly. You support. You make decisions. You handle problems. The other pilot(s) look to you for mature, seasoned, sound judgment. Sorry, but at your level, you’re just not ready. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is setting you up for a big fall, or just wants your money. I realize that you can probably pass the pilot proficiency check, but that is a snap compared to what will be required of you as a captain. After all, that is what that piece of paper entitles you to do -- act as PIC of that type aircraft, with a brand-new low-experience SIC sitting next to you, a bunch of trusting souls in the back, absolutely at-minimums weather at your destination, with an alternate that is no piece of cake either, and handle anything that might go “Murphy’s way”. Don’t be fooled into thinking you are ready for that.
One last thought you youthful turd, go attend a good CRM course.
Last, but certainly not least, you need a solid grounding in CRM. Practice CRM techniques every time you fly. Fly with other pilots. Sooner or later you’ll hopefully be able to interact in a crew environment, and the time to start learning is now. The benefits of solid CRM programs are recognized throughout the world as contributing to a safer flying environment by maximizing the crew’s synergy. I realize this is hard to do in the situation you find yourself in, but do the best you can -- it will pay off in the future.
Now, let me set the record straight. I am not a “Grinch”, nor am I an old curmudgeon. I have seen hard times, but I’ve been incredibly blessed with some very good deals in my career.
It all came about because of luck, skill, judgement, knowledge, compassion (I know you won’t agree with that right now) and most importantly, experience.
Best of luck there bunky.
I’m not going to let you “red herring” this thing away and don’t tell me about the who’s got the “Mr. Moral” thing either, you young snot.
You blatantly made the statement that - Quote “as long as it is stamped in the log book.....who cares after that” - Unquote.
I don’t care how you log it or get it “stamped”. How about if you get your experience the old-fashioned way.
Go out and fly as PIC in an airplane you can handle. Learn it well. In whatever kind of weather- and frankly, I don’t care as long as you and the aeroplane are equipped. Oh yeah - and able to do it. And once again, I don’t care how you log it. Get it “stamped” if you need to.
Now that I’ve got your attention –
If you really want to move up in your chosen career path to whatever kind of fuselage you want to kiss or hug, here’s some advice:
Fly other airplanes. Learn their characteristics. Become a pro (this is a state of mind -- an attitude toward your profession). Flight instruction, while not involving a lot of “stick time”, will teach you more about flying than you have learned while obtaining your commercial pilot Licence. Pipeline patrol, sightseeing, aerial photography, skydiving operations (they jump, you stay in your seat), are all good for building experience. Get on with a charter operator. Fly night freight. Fly in the military for all I care. As you transition from one type to a more complex type (at a rate you can handle), you’ll build that elusive experience (which would be better measured by years, seasons and number of flights, rather than by hours). Not some “stamped” time in your log.
Therein lies the key to the stupid remarks about getting your time “stamped”. Nobody but you care about every decimal point from every flight you’ve ever done that you can show to a prospective employer. - Nobody! Your Chief Pilot will “stamp” your log without batting an eye. Why? - Your Chief Pilot does not give a fiddlers f##k about how may hours you spent on the gauges. He isn’t going to check it out now, is he? And everybody knows it! You want to know why? Because he, and nor does anyone else, really care about that inane and boring stuff. All he really cares about is that you either got the trip done safely or you made a decision to not go in the first place. So don’t tell me that logging some kind of time spent circling in special VFR or how many hours you had to plow through clouds means anything to anyone but yourself.
While we’re on the issue of experience, let’s cut through all the crap that you hear about type ratings. At 250 hours you’ve got as much business being in command of a Citation, Beechjet, BE1900, or B-737, as you do in command of the Space Shuttle. Yup. That’s what I said. “In Command”. That means you’re “it”. You are the final authority as to the conduct of the flight. You help to create a comfortable, well-run flight-deck. You contribute. You listen. You discuss. You direct. You teach. You learn. You fly. You support. You make decisions. You handle problems. The other pilot(s) look to you for mature, seasoned, sound judgment. Sorry, but at your level, you’re just not ready. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is setting you up for a big fall, or just wants your money. I realize that you can probably pass the pilot proficiency check, but that is a snap compared to what will be required of you as a captain. After all, that is what that piece of paper entitles you to do -- act as PIC of that type aircraft, with a brand-new low-experience SIC sitting next to you, a bunch of trusting souls in the back, absolutely at-minimums weather at your destination, with an alternate that is no piece of cake either, and handle anything that might go “Murphy’s way”. Don’t be fooled into thinking you are ready for that.
One last thought you youthful turd, go attend a good CRM course.
Last, but certainly not least, you need a solid grounding in CRM. Practice CRM techniques every time you fly. Fly with other pilots. Sooner or later you’ll hopefully be able to interact in a crew environment, and the time to start learning is now. The benefits of solid CRM programs are recognized throughout the world as contributing to a safer flying environment by maximizing the crew’s synergy. I realize this is hard to do in the situation you find yourself in, but do the best you can -- it will pay off in the future.
Now, let me set the record straight. I am not a “Grinch”, nor am I an old curmudgeon. I have seen hard times, but I’ve been incredibly blessed with some very good deals in my career.
It all came about because of luck, skill, judgement, knowledge, compassion (I know you won’t agree with that right now) and most importantly, experience.
Best of luck there bunky.
Here we go again
Here is a word for you Checkpilot...."assumption" Notice the first three letters....
I am not a 250 hour wonder and Iam not new in this industry. Oh ya Im not young either...
I read your last post there...YAWN!
I think I really hit a nerve.. The logging of IFR time should be strait forward...and obviously it is not or else there would not be this long drawn out discussion as to how it should be done.
One last thing.. Just because you logged IFR a certain way in the good old days of the pre flood era does not mean it still works.
One thing I find hard listeneing to is guys like you who have some good points but also start off their point with a "well back in my day we did it this way"
So lay off a bit. And that is MR. Bunky to you.
I am not a 250 hour wonder and Iam not new in this industry. Oh ya Im not young either...
I read your last post there...YAWN!
I think I really hit a nerve.. The logging of IFR time should be strait forward...and obviously it is not or else there would not be this long drawn out discussion as to how it should be done.
One last thing.. Just because you logged IFR a certain way in the good old days of the pre flood era does not mean it still works.
One thing I find hard listeneing to is guys like you who have some good points but also start off their point with a "well back in my day we did it this way"
So lay off a bit. And that is MR. Bunky to you.
