voyageur bond (think twice)

[Brown Bear]

The bond at VAL is 15K and qualifying for a personal loan through VAL’s CIBC branch in North Bay is painless and easy…

Why does VAL require pilots to take out a personal loan?

What is wrong with signing a bond?

As to Africa it should pay well.

Because they're blood sucking maggots!

Lowrider.....like we care.

['effin hippie]

I think we should say thanks to 'lowrider' for laying it all out for us. You talk to everyone like that big guy?

Ya got what? 2 posts? You're a thinly veiled shill for VAL's management.

But that's the whole f***ing problem isn't it? Well paid, international work on large equipment, lots of time off, and you turn crew over so fast you gotta bill them before they come through the door?

People aren't leaving because they're spineless, selfish losers, as your post implies. They're leaving because they have to deal with a**holes like you, as your post also implies.

Promissory notes and similar forms of bonding, with reasonable conditions and no $$ up front are accepted, legally effective and fairly simple to implement. Making that switch could go a good way to rehabilitating VAL's ugly image. Yet they insist on the cash up front. Why would anyone want to work for a bunch of jerks, and if circumstances pushed them to working there anyway, why would they stay?

But that's just what it looks like from the outside so wtf...

ef

[Lowrider]

VAL has a bad image primarily because of the vulture mentality… A guy like you, ‘on the outside’, sees a VAL post and scrambles to sink his claws into the carcass. Please enlighten us all on the difference between securing a training bond or agreeing to work for ridiculously low wages elsewhere. I’m serious; do you think that’s somehow nobler? WTF? There are companies that don’t require a bond. Deal with it and move on. Stop bitching and go work for them. VAL is expanding a lot at the moment and there is a lot of room to grow. It’s not for everyone and sure, it has a few drawbacks, but so does everything. My two cents.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Lowrider, once again will you try and answer this question, because it is the cash up front that has everyone bitching because it is so Jetsgo.

Why does VAL require pilots to take out a personal loan?

What is wrong with signing a bond?

This is self explanatory.

As to Africa it should pay well.

[xsbank]

If VAL is such a terrific place to work, why is there such a huge turnover?

Well, Lowrider, why is that so true?

I think it sucks to work for VAL, without even discussing the f*cking "bond" and pilots beat a hasty retreat as soon as they can because any management team that is so screwed up as this company's will drive people away with other, chickensh*t policies and treatment that nobody bothers to talk about because they buzz off ASAP.

Lowrider, are you the only long-term pilot there, buttercup? Do you think that posting on this site will convince 'normal' (given they will get involved with giving VAL cash-up-front) pilots to stay longer?

There is systemic rot in this company, but instead of dealing with that they have this scheme to extort money from desperate people who need work.

What a gang of losers.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Lowrider, are you the only long-term pilot there, buttercup?

[ettw]

There is systemic rot in this company, but instead of dealing with that they have this scheme to extort money from desperate people who need work.

What a gang of losers.

First off, I am not defending bonds. That being said....

I read your statement to say that you feel that this company, an airline, has developed a "scheme to extort money". This would suggest that they have given up running airplanes to make money and are just improving their margins by running "desperate people" thru the mill to fleece them of their cash. I have to say that is just about the dumbest thing I've read in a while.

VAL is an airline. They operate aircraft all over the world because thats where the business is. They require pilots to operate this equipment and training costs money. They have implemented a "pay up front for your type rating" type of system. I would guess that they don't make any money on this bond if you bolt. I'm guessing that an initial type rating for these types is in excess of 30k dollars. They do this because they have been burned repeatedly by people who can't keep their word. Maybe they are a real sh*t hole to work for but based on two friends of mine who work there, it doesnt sound that bad.

I worked for a company once who charged bonds. I never paid one due to the fact that I was hired as Chief Pilot. In fact it was never a topic of employment for me. That being said, I was adamently against the policy but had to implement it under direction of the president of the company. He said to me once during one of our heated discussions on this topic, "If I paid the pilots 200k a year, when AC called they'd still fu*k off in a heart beat." He's right.

We as a body do whatever it takes to get us to where we want to be in our career. Docks, ramps, dispatch, and bonds are all steps that we endure for the dream job, whatever that may be.

Cheers,

ETTW

[KenoraPilot]

Well said.....

[Pitot/SAS/Low/Auto]

Of course, there's the line of thought that training is a cost of doing business.

[Cat Driver]

Of course, there's the line of thought that training is a cost of doing business.

Not when pilots are lining up to pay cash up front to get trained.

[flying4dollars]

You idiots all make me laugh; why the hell did any one of you get into aviation in the first place? Bitch bitch bitch, yak yak yak. The minute anyone starts a post about VAL, every idiot with a keyboard wants to take a jab. Get a grip.
I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for a guy who can’t cope with the responsibilities he’s been hired for. Stop bloody complaining, strap on a pair and do the job you were bloody hired to do.
Picture this: You own an airline and times are good… you have a few Dash 7s, a couple of 8s and some RJs… you’re looking to crew your planes and so you interview from the pile of CVs on your desk… you hire a few good guys, fire off a check to Flight Safety to cover their training costs then settle back to run your operation… All’s well for a while, then lo and behold, AC starts hiring… It’s bloody jackpot time for anyone with an ATPL… Not 6 months after joining VAL, your new recruits start bailing ship for greener pastures. WTF?

Cool, now consider this. Said company actually pays their pilots very well, gives them a great schedule and works hard at creating, grooming, and maintaining a good workplace where morale is high. Training is paid for, benefits are handsome and there's a very high level of loyalty because of the treatment they receive from management.

The reason pilots jump ship is exactly the opposite of said company above. Who WOULDN'T want to leave a company where pay, benefits, morale etc are low, for a company like WJ???

I had the opportunity to go to Jazz not too long ago when they were hiring. Why didn't I apply right away? Because I'm happy with where I am at. My company treats me well, I fly great machines and have a great sched. Why the heck would I want to leave when the pasture I'm at is already green? But I'll tell you what, if I was at a company that didn't treat me well, paid me peanuts, gave me a shitty sched and numerous ultimatums in a sub par work environment, you're damn right I'm going to f*ck off to the first opportunity I get to work for a company that wont treat me as poorly.

So I'm sorry, but if VAL wants to protect themselves from being burned like they have in the past, maybe they should take a look at how they treat their staff and re-evaluate their worth - not a bad place to start if you ask me.

[flying4dollars]

That being said, I was adamently against the policy but had to implement it under direction of the president of the company. He said to me once during one of our heated discussions on this topic, "If I paid the pilots 200k a year, when AC called they'd still fu*k off in a heart beat." He's right.

I doubt that...

[Invertago]

That being said, I was adamently against the policy but had to implement it under direction of the president of the company. He said to me once during one of our heated discussions on this topic, "If I paid the pilots 200k a year, when AC called they'd still fu*k off in a heart beat." He's right.

I doubt that...

X2

At $200k a year (and a nice schedule) I'd fly the rubber dog shit in a Ho. Because on my time off I'd have fun with that $200k. Most a/c guys day dream about their years in the bush anyhow.


Hell I'd take a dock job for life and never fly commercially again if you paid me $200k/year. The money is worth more then the jet time.

[bornagain1340]

90% of pilots say that. But when the phone call comes to fly the "big iron" making half as much on a shittier schedule you can barely catch up to them to say good luck.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with ettw on that one because I've seen it first hand.

[Invertago]

90% of pilots say that. But when the phone call comes to fly the "big iron" making half as much on a shittier schedule you can barely catch up to them to say good luck.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with ettw on that one because I've seen it first hand.

Its idiots like them that make this industry the joy it is. I'm only a few years in aviation and already I'd like a refund. I'd much rather the pay and lifestyle over the jet engines. I've read what is ahead in the airline world, people dreaming of jet jobs should read in the airline threads... it doesn't buy happiness. They hate the daily security checks, locked cabin doors, minimal sleep between trips and time away from home. If I get myself a jet job it's only because they pay better then or the schedule beats some other segment of flying. The golden days of being a jet captain are gone. I'd trade my CPL (keeping the PPL) for a $200k / year job and get my self a sweet little Lancair and bust my own holes in the sky for fun.

[Doc]

For 200K, I'll happily circle around in a 172, hell a 152, till the cows come home.
Putting up with security checks conducted by a bunch of grade 6 drop outs, being locked in a cockpit, not my thing, baby.
I flew as a kid. Visited the cockpit. Envied the skipper. Got to sit in the capt's seat on a Super Connie....in flight!
Cathay guys used to make a 1/4 mill a year. With the new pay formulas, a young gun can look forward to maybe half that.
The food is total crap. I detest wearing a tie.
The "good old days" of airline flying went out the window when guys like Len Morgan retired from Braniff.
In 1975, I sat in a hotel room in Hawaii, with a few Ward Air pilots. They did nothing but bitch and complain. And Ward Air was the very top of the pile.
If you really want to fly the big stuff, then you go for it! It's just not what I've ever wanted. And, I'm a pretty happy puppy.
Cheers.

['effin hippie]

That being said, I was adamently against the policy but had to implement it under direction of the president of the company. He said to me once during one of our heated discussions on this topic, "If I paid the pilots 200k a year, when AC called they'd still fu*k off in a heart beat." He's right.

I doubt that...

X2

At $200k a year (and a nice schedule) I'd fly the rubber dog shit in a Ho. Because on my time off I'd have fun with that $200k. Most a/c guys day dream about their years in the bush anyhow.


Hell I'd take a dock job for life and never fly commercially again if you paid me $200k/year. The money is worth more then the jet time.

Hahaha. You guys don't know where ettw and that company were....even 200K would suck if you hadda work 6 days a week all year in Lake Fort Saint Shithole.....

[Invertago]

Which is why I included "nice schedule" in my comment. Gotta have the right balance between pay and lifestyle. Even a shit hole town isn't bad if you have a schedule that lets you get out frequently.

[flyinhigh]

Picture this: You own an airline and times are good… you have a few Dash 7s, a couple of 8s and some RJs…

The bond at VAL is 15K and qualifying for a personal loan through VAL’s CIBC branch in North Bay is painless and easy… No one is asking you to max out your credit cards or sell your left kidney… After a year, the personal loan you took out and any accrued interest is reimbursed to you. Total cost to you: $0 and 365 days of commitment. Get a grip all of you who whinge about being better than that.
Apply to Jazz and earn 36K a year if it makes you feel morally superior…

Personally I’d rather work overseas for 6 months of the year earning anywhere from 55K-85K (.

First point, when you operate those types of aircraft you sure shouldn't have to bond, unless you treat your employee's like a bid bag of ole dog shit.

Second point. Personal loans. CROCK OF SHIT. switch to promisary note's. guess what there legally binding, if one leaves.

Third point, Did you say 55-85K to be in africa 6 months a year to fly the same planes as Jazz. excuse me LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Thats a fuckin joke right.

Yeah we start at 36 for year one. 43 for year 2, about 50 for year 3. OH and your home half the month, great benefits, and if you wanna see africa it'll cost you about 50 bucks to get there. You wanna start to talk bottom of the pay scale. whats VAL's? was it 24K on the king air, with a cash up front bond. thats right it is...
Top of the pay scale you said 85K hahaha, jazz you can do 120K and still be home every night.


As for the last few comments. When I was younger I always remember going I can't wait to fly that, something always bigger and I pursued this thought. I took the pay cuts and yes left one great company(Thunder Airlines, YQT)to come to jazz. Now that I am here I look and watch the 172's and such going by going I wanna go back to that.

I loved my time so much on the smaller aircraft so much that I am actually looking for a job now back on a navajo or king air or something small.

All I ask for from such company is 65K salary, lifestyle and benefits. Thats all I need. Sure staying with Jazz I could make 100K, mainline 150K, westjet 130K. but that money is absolutely useless if you can't enjoy your time off with friends and family and work all the time. Will I find something like this probably not. At least not in winnipeg. Oh wait SkyNorth, hehe, kidding

In my 10 years of flying now I have really grown up, its no longer about equipment. It's about lifestyle and benefits.

Airline flying is(this is for all the lower time trying to make it) is EXTREMELY boring. ALL your doing is programming a computer, hell the only time you fly now is landing and take-off due to RVSM. Enjoy the time where you are at. Don't rush to get to something bigger.

I know I kinda went way left field on this one. Sorry

Mike

[flying4dollars]

Hahaha. You guys don't know where ettw and that company were....even 200K would suck if you hadda work 6 days a week all year in Lake Fort Saint Shithole.....

Yeah I worked in a Fort Saint Shithole for 26K a year working 6 days a week on many occasions with little time to fly home for some time off. I made it work, I can damn sure do it again for 8 times that pay @ $200K.

[Invertago]

Curious...

What happens if you loose your medical while bonded?

[flying4dollars]

Curious...

What happens if you loose your medical while bonded?

The terms of my bond stated if I ever lost a medical, I would NOT be held responsible for owing money on a bond. Not sure what other companies are like but I'd assume most are like this.

[Just another canuck]

Curious...

What happens if you loose your medical while bonded?

The terms of my bond stated if I ever lost a medical, I would NOT be held responsible for owing money on a bond. Not sure what other companies are like but I'd assume most are like this.

I'm pretty sure the VAL bond states you are responsible if you lose your medical.

[Doc]

I'm pretty sure the VAL bond states you are responsible if you lose your medical.

Seriously? Have something show up on an ECG and they keep your 15K. And, still they line up to work there? I've lost all faith.
Really. I'm just giving up on the subject......you people really need to give your heads a shake! (not aimed at you JAC) As long as you line up, it'll never end.

[Cat Driver]

For sure if they have your money you are in a very difficult position trying to get it back.

Conversely with a bond they are the ones who have to collect, and hopefully a judge will rule on if they can collect.

Fifteen thousand dollars is more than it costs to get a PPL even if you take almost twice the minimum hours.