Jazz losing their C2's

[ourkid2000]

I have a question for you. Did they make the same deal to the people who had to commute because of the shutdown of the YVR maintenance base? How about the recently laid off ACTS people who have to bump?

[Brick Head]

I have a question for you. Did they make the same deal to the people who had to commute because of the shutdown of the YVR maintenance base? How about the recently laid off ACTS people who have to bump?

Ourkid2000,

Not claiming this is necessarily fair. Just trying to shed some light on what has happened.

I can up you one. What about the unfortunate FA in YUL that gets forced to commute due to the reduction? The terms of the recommendations by Mr. Keller do not apply (My understanding) to them.

All I am trying to show is that there was no malicious intent here. Layoffs were announced. By federal law an arbitrator got involved. That arbitrator facilitated conditions specifically for those, and those only, who were affected.

End result is rumored to be a pass travel change.

[popo]

Just the way it should be Ac employee 1st on their Aircraft...and Jazz 1st on their RJ.
I work for Mainline, and it is not right to have a Jazz guy getting ahead of me on my flight ..final!!!

We will work on it to make sure it happens. Enjoy while it last.

[piggy]

Just the way it should be Ac employee 1st on their Aircraft...and Jazz 1st on their RJ.
I work for Mainline, and it is not right to have a Jazz guy getting ahead of me on my flight ..final!!!

We will work on it to make sure it happens. Enjoy while it last.

I don't know how much of mainline will be left in 5 years. Based on what s going on in the good old US of A, Spain, Britain, New Zealand, Germany -all are in recession, Oh, and things are going to get a lot worse than better.

At some point in the next few years, oil will go 150-200 a barrel again. The layoffs occurring at your mainline are just the tip of the ice burg...I would suggest you are thankful for what you have now, and also enjoy it while it lasts-because the upcoming neg. you are going to have in 2009 are going to be in a slaughterfest.

I hope the Jazz people benefit from all the pain, and they probably will, as it will turn to desperation, as costs grow out of control

Good luck, you are going to need it.

[Brick Head]

I hope the Jazz people benefit from all the pain, and they probably will, as it will turn to desperation, as costs grow out of control

Good luck, you are going to need it.

Piggy,

I almost always respect your financial opinions. Why is it however that every time you mention AC your objectiveness seems to depart.

Yes I believe the most optimistic outcome is a mild global recession. It could get much worse. And yes even if this rescue plan works in the US it has sown the seeds of inflation south of the boarder. The US even under the best of outcomes will go through a long period of economic pain and inflationary pressures.

Yes oil will remain high. It will however return to fundamentals. It will be worth what it is worth based on supply and demand. Bubbles come and go. One thing is always constant. Gravity. There is no logical reason, based on fundamentals, that would see oil surge again as you predict. I think the most likely scenario is the end of this commodity super cycle. Remember what happened last time. Not sure how old you were. Stagflation, high interest rates, worst recession in I believe, at that point, 3 decades. Haven't had one that bad since. A drop across the board on commodities will no doubt be painful to Canukistans economy and the TSX.

As for Air Canada's costs.

Air Canada is locked into contracts with the former components of the organization at inflated cost.

ACTS, now Aveos Fleet Performance, buys product from former Air Canada suppliers at AC preferred cost, then sells it back to AC for list price. It is costing AC millions. It was part of the sale of ACTS. Basically the deal was front loaded. Sell ACTS at an inflated price. The proceeds go to ACE shareholders. Air Canada is left paying higher maintenance costs for the duration of the contract which is up Feb 09.

Jazz, same thing. I have beaten that to death. Contract up 2015. I'll repeat only this. I am not saying Jazz's cost are high. I am saying Air Canada pays way more than the going rate for its CPA with Jazz. Same idea though, give it a whopping contract for 10 years with guaranteed income. That artificially drives up the IPO price. The proceeds of the sale go to ACE shareholders. Air Canada is left paying inflated prices for a CPA.

Aeroplan. Same thing. Don't understand it well enough to explain.

[piggy]

I hope the Jazz people benefit from all the pain, and they probably will, as it will turn to desperation, as costs grow out of control

Good luck, you are going to need it.

Piggy,

I almost always respect your financial opinions. Why is it however that every time you mention AC your objectiveness seems to depart.

Yes I believe the most optimistic outcome is a mild global recession. It could get much worse. And yes even if this rescue plan works in the US it has sown the seeds of inflation south of the boarder. The US even under the best of outcomes will go through a long period of economic pain and inflationary pressures.

Yes oil will remain high. It will however return to fundamentals. It will be worth what it is worth based on supply and demand. Bubbles come and go. One thing is always constant. Gravity. There is no logical reason, based on fundamentals, that would see oil surge again as you predict. I think the most likely scenario is the end of this commodity super cycle. Remember what happened last time. Not sure how old you were. Stagflation, high interest rates, worst recession in I believe, at that point, 3 decades. Haven't had one that bad since. A drop across the board on commodities will no doubt be painful to Canukistans economy and the TSX.

As for Air Canada's costs.

Air Canada is locked into contracts with the former components of the organization at inflated cost.

ACTS, now Aveos Fleet Performance, buys product from former Air Canada suppliers at AC preferred cost, then sells it back to AC for list price. It is costing AC millions. It was part of the sale of ACTS. Basically the deal was front loaded. Sell ACTS at an inflated price. The proceeds go to ACE shareholders. Air Canada is left paying higher maintenance costs for the duration of the contract which is up Feb 09.

Jazz, same thing. I have beaten that to death. Contract up 2015. I'll repeat only this. I am not saying Jazz's cost are high. I am saying Air Canada pays way more than the going rate for its CPA with Jazz. Same idea though, give it a whopping contract for 10 years with guaranteed income. That artificially drives up the IPO price. The proceeds of the sale go to ACE shareholders. Air Canada is left paying inflated prices for a CPA.

Aeroplan. Same thing. Don't understand it well enough to explain.

In agree with most of what you have to say. The TSx is crashing as we speak, the bail out has been pooched-for now. There will be a bail out of some sort-and the magnitude of the money the usa is throwing out there is unprecedented. This means a devaluation of the US dollar going forward-and a eventual large increase in commodities traded in that currency. Namely, gold and oil. The demand from the middle class in the BRIC countries is on a small holiday for the moment and when the USA economy stabilizes in a few years, the growth in emerging economies with spike big time. Welcome to inflation, caused by a devalued dollar, worldwide demand out stripping supply, resulting in high commodity prices. I think the real supercycle of commodities is in the 3 inning , and having a intermission at the moment. But then again, if i knew everything, i would be a billionaire like buffet, and i am far from that.

I believe AC will have to adapt to the new world or reduce in size significantly. It will boil down to costs, and either you bleed money until your put down for good-or adapt-capitalism at its best.

One other problem cited by many analysts who follow the sector is the AC very poor management-employee relationship and moral. When you have bickering between different groups, and generally a bad attitude, it surfaces in higher costs, poor customer service, and lost customers. There is no execution on this problem by the management-almost like they think it is not a big deal. There are many employee contracts coming due soon, costs are high , and the world is going to be in a recession??? They say with real estate investing , your tenants , are half your investment-its not just the house. If you take care of them , they will take care of your house. The ongoing problem with AC is that they dont see that the same applies to employees.

[Stick-Shaker]

i would bet that more mainline employees commute on jazz aircraft than mainline aircraft

As a commuter, I really doubt that.

Nice try though!

[spaz]

At AC we have a company forum where people post questions re operations/rumors/etc. and they get answered by managers.

Someone posted the question regarding re-jigging the AC/Jazz pass priority on there.

First, the manager's response was that no changes are planned.

Second, the manager posted a stat that more ACers travel on Jazz flights than Jazzers on AC flights.

It makes sense, Jazz has more movements in a day than we do and most of it is domestic. Be careful what you wish for guys.

[Brick Head]

Spaz,

That message is dated mid August. The CUPE base closure arbitration, where the rumor originated from, was released mid September. I have no doubt the comment about commuting on Jazz is correct, considering the source, but the CUPE arbitration was only about YWG, YHZ and YVR FA's getting to YYZ

The arbitrator was very clear that being forced to commute is not the same as choosing it. In other words Air Canada has to make special rules for these specific FA's.

Anyway.

Rumors gotta love em. I can say this. As of a week ago, if anything is going on, neither Flt OPS or ACPA were aware. With that said if this originated outside of flight ops there is no reason they would know until told.

We are just pealots after all.

The only reason I jumped into the fray was to squelch the Duche bag comments.

If this rumor does turn out to be true it has nothing to do with Flt ops or ACPA.

[Brick Head]

Piggy,

I was referring to your objectivity when it comes to Air Canada.

I hope the Jazz people benefit from all the pain,

Sounds personnel. Why do you hate Ac employees to the point that you hope they encounter pain?

As far as AC's cost.

No one knows AC's actual costs once the inflated contracts with spun off companies come to an end. There is no small chunk of change flowing through these deals.

The economy.

First off, a devalued US dollar is an inflationary pressure within only the US. Yes, oil is pegged to the US dollar, so it may go up as the currency drops. A currency that is rising against a weakening US dollar is partially or completely shielded. In very basic terms this fact alone is why US airlines have had the greatest difficulty with high fuel costs. In Canada the doubling of oil was partially offset by the currency increasing 50% against the US buck. For example. What is the difference for a Canadian airline if the dollar is at 63 c US and oil at $60US/barrel, or parity with the US dollar and $90US dollar oil? Both cost $ 90 bucks Canadian.

Second, the full effect of the bail out is uncertain. The plan is to basically move high risk credit to the tax payer. It doesn't mean all will default. It does not mean that 700 billion will necessarily be printed.

This is where we disagree. The good ole US of A's consumer isn't coming back anytime soon. They have been living and consuming beyond their means on the back of house equity and cheap credit for years. The US consumption engine has been reliant on an ever increasing home equity. Now it is pay back time. The shock to the world wide economy would have been bad enough if home values just stopped increasing. Instead they are reversing. Since the BRIC countries are presently reliant on the consumption engine of the world their middle class is in for a tough time.

Where is this demand going to come from? The US consumer? The Brick countries that are reliant on the now none existent US consumer? Countries that rely on a trade surplus based to the US and western consumer? Economies that rely on a weak currency in comparison to the US dollar for their competitive advantage? What are those countries going to do as the US dollar and demand for their products fall, at the same time as their currency advantage dwindles?

The world wide economy has had a good ride. But the spike in oil, the drop in consumer home equity (even for those who do not default) and credit crisis have all conspired to take out the US consumer. The economic engine. Not for a short while either.

I've seen this play before. Stagflation. I know people who lost their houses in the eighties when a housing melt down took place here in Canada. We are next. Not as bad as the US but we are next. We too have been living beyond our means on the back of cheap credit and borrowed home equity.

Something to keep in mind. Although housing prices have always fluctuated since post WW2 they always returns to the value at which it costs to build them.

[Jaques Strappe]

Piggy Wrote:

I believe AC will have to adapt to the new world or reduce in size significantly. It will boil down to costs, and either you bleed money until your put down for good-or adapt-capitalism at its best.

One other problem cited by many analysts who follow the sector is the AC very poor management-employee relationship and moral. When you have bickering between different groups, and generally a bad attitude, it surfaces in higher costs, poor customer service, and lost customers. There is no execution on this problem by the management-almost like they think it is not a big deal. There are many employee contracts coming due soon, costs are high , and the world is going to be in a recession??? They say with real estate investing , your tenants , are half your investment-its not just the house. If you take care of them , they will take care of your house. The ongoing problem with AC is that they dont see that the same applies to employees.

I agree, I believe AC will downsize accordingly and perhaps significantly. But one thing to keep in mind when costs need to be cut by reduction, you may not want to be the supplier who is presently being paid double the industry standard. With the present CPA agreement at Jazz representing the highest in the industry and Air Canada no longer having any affiliation to the bottom line at Jazz, do you not think that Air Canada is possibly looking at reducing their need for regional uplift?


I also agree 100% with your second point regarding the employee group relationship. Do you think perhaps that some of your comments may actually contribute to the very problem you have identified? We have perhaps all been guilty of that at one point or another but I find it ironic how we bicker all the while blaming someone else for it, in the meantime, someone just stole your meal off the table.

[cat3]

Hello all,

With regards to the numerous references to the Jazz CPA w/ AC:

Perhaps it is over-priced but from what I have seen in articles on the subject in various journals it is not double. Yes there is an agreement until 2015 with two 5-year renewal possibilities after that. But the price tag is renegotiated every 3 to 5 years and was recently reviewed again and adjusted to the satisfaction of both Jazz and AC. Keep in mind that Jazz is referenced to 5 key regionals in the US such as ASA, Air Wisconsin, Skywest and a couple others. As far as costs Jazz is in the middle of the pack; in terms of performance it is by far the leader. Of course it doesn't do all its work in the US so this helps the performance part somewhat.

Jazz status payscale and that of the EMB 175 captain's payscales are identical, contrary to popular belief, with the exception that AC's has more years of service to it. However AC has this "bypass" pay system or something which basically enables some pilots flying a regional aircraft to earn a salary far beyond, I hate to say it, what a regional pilot is considered to be worth on these payscales. Perhaps an AC pilot could explain this further, I do not pretend to know it well but the bottomline is, among other high costs, AC is paying substantially more, on average, for it's own pilots to complete a regional flight than does Jazz. Is it the only cost factor? Of course not but it is significant enough to be noticed by the bean counters for sure. The Cx of YDF-YUL w/ full EMB's and no route competition because it's not profitable is proof that something is deeply wrong with AC handling regional flights. The bottom line is: whatever the CPA cost is, it is cheaper than AC's own regional ops on a similar route. HAnds down cheaper.

Some suggest that 2015 is to be feared by Jazz. Are you kidding? It's more like a win-win. Either a CPA is lost in which case Jazz will continue to operate under some other brand and would be very competitive to both AC and WJ (not to mention bye-bye scope clauses and probably hello larger A/C) , or it is renewed (most likely) and even expanded. I won't be surprised if AC buys back majority in JAzz once Jazz is a stock again in 2011 just to ensure control over it and avoid take-overs by a third party which would ultimately ruin AC's domestic operations. Many Jazzers would love to get away from under AC, some more so than ACPA pilots would love to see Jazz disappear. But it won't. It exists because AC wants it to and needs it to.

Air France/KLM, British, Lufthansa, Emirates, and a couple of others are establishing themselves handily as the big players. AC still has the window to remain significant on the world stage but that window is closing in my opinion. ACPA should, for its own health,should focus on this side of the operation.

As far as C2's, grow up, there are bigger fish to fry. Like the Multi-Crew Pilot License, ever heard of it?

Just a few thoughts.

[. .]

Hello all,

With regards to the numerous references to the Jazz CPA w/ AC:

Perhaps it is over-priced but from what I have seen in articles on the subject in various journals it is not double. Yes there is an agreement until 2015 with two 5-year renewal possibilities after that. But the price tag is renegotiated every 3 to 5 years and was recently reviewed again and adjusted to the satisfaction of both Jazz and AC. Keep in mind that Jazz is referenced to 5 key regionals in the US such as ASA, Air Wisconsin, Skywest and a couple others. As far as costs Jazz is in the middle of the pack; in terms of performance it is by far the leader. Of course it doesn't do all its work in the US so this helps the performance part somewhat.

Jazz status payscale and that of the EMB 175 captain's payscales are identical, contrary to popular belief, with the exception that AC's has more years of service to it. However AC has this "bypass" pay system or something which basically enables some pilots flying a regional aircraft to earn a salary far beyond, I hate to say it, what a regional pilot is considered to be worth on these payscales. Perhaps an AC pilot could explain this further, I do not pretend to know it well but the bottomline is, among other high costs, AC is paying substantially more, on average, for it's own pilots to complete a regional flight than does Jazz. Is it the only cost factor? Of course not but it is significant enough to be noticed by the bean counters for sure. The Cx of YDF-YUL w/ full EMB's and no route competition because it's not profitable is proof that something is deeply wrong with AC handling regional flights. The bottom line is: whatever the CPA cost is, it is cheaper than AC's own regional ops on a similar route. HAnds down cheaper.

Some suggest that 2015 is to be feared by Jazz. Are you kidding? It's more like a win-win. Either a CPA is lost in which case Jazz will continue to operate under some other brand and would be very competitive to both AC and WJ (not to mention bye-bye scope clauses and probably hello larger A/C) , or it is renewed (most likely) and even expanded. I won't be surprised if AC buys back majority in JAzz once Jazz is a stock again in 2011 just to ensure control over it and avoid take-overs by a third party which would ultimately ruin AC's domestic operations. Many Jazzers would love to get away from under AC, some more so than ACPA pilots would love to see Jazz disappear. But it won't. It exists because AC wants it to and needs it to.

Air France/KLM, British, Lufthansa, Emirates, and a couple of others are establishing themselves handily as the big players. AC still has the window to remain significant on the world stage but that window is closing in my opinion. ACPA should, for its own health,should focus on this side of the operation.

As far as C2's, grow up, there are bigger fish to fry. Like the Multi-Crew Pilot License, ever heard of it?

Just a few thoughts.

cat3:

Which journals are you talking about? I've always heard about the CPA with Jazz being a massive gouge, but I've never seen anything more than quarterly financial statements used to reference it.


Your comment about pay scales I believe to be incorrect.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... _jazz.html
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... anada.html

If you reference those two, you can see that Jazz NOT Air Canada has more years of pay progression. It also debunks your myth about the pay scales being equal. WestJet is paying their 737 FO's and Captains more than the EMJ guys are making. So when you're saying the AC pilots wages are uncompetitive I don't believe that's true. The 320 wages were artificially reduced an addition 5% during CCAA to bring them in line with what WestJet is paying. I would agree that Air Canada wages are better than anyone flying sked in the united states though.

I have NEVER heard of a AC pilot saying they wished Jazz was gone. I've heard grumbling about scope, but never anyone despising their existence.

Air Canada pilots need to unite and stop fighting within their group before than can even begin to worry about pesky little issues like scope or working conditions.

[Brick Head]

cat3,

As a caveat to everything written below. The message is. Air Canada is paying too much for the CPA with Jazz. This should not be interpreted as Jazz's cost are too high. Two very different things. I would argue that at the moment Jazz's true costs, as with AC's, are not discernible.

My comments below are only about cost to AC and should not be found offensive or threatening to Jazz employee's.

Hello all,

With regards to the numerous references to the Jazz CPA w/ AC:

Perhaps it is over-priced but from what I have seen in articles on the subject in various journals it is not double.

Thank you. Someone finally with enough seance to admit what stars them in the face. Yes it is over priced. Gotta love math. Especially percentages. 67 to 100 is a 50% increase. 100 back to 67 is a 33% reduction. I agree they can be misleading.

Another thing to keep in mind is the fundamental cost of operating in Canada is higher. GTAA fee's, security fees, nav fees, tax on fuel ect. No matter what happens, a Canadian CPA provider will never be able to match their US counter parts

Yes there is an agreement until 2015 with two 5-year renewal possibilities after that. But the price tag is renegotiated every 3 to 5 years and was recently reviewed again and adjusted to the satisfaction of both Jazz and AC.

No not really. There is no real negotiating. A formula for rate renewal is built into the CPA. There is very little room for AC to maneuver until 2015. Perhaps it would be more accurate to state AC has no choice but to be satisfied with the rate renewal.

Keep in mind that Jazz is referenced to 5 key regionals in the US such as ASA, Air Wisconsin, Skywest and a couple others. As far as costs Jazz is in the middle of the pack; in terms of performance it is by far the leader. Of course it doesn't do all its work in the US so this helps the performance part somewhat.

No not really. That comparison, within the CPA, is only for percent change in costs. In turn that is applied to the built in formula for rate renewal. That comparison is not a direct comparison of costs. Jazz was in the middle of the pack in percentage cost increase only. A direct cost comparison still leaves Air Canada paying 50% higher for the Jazz CPA than the US competition. Or other US carriers pay 1/3 less if you prefer.

The bottom line is: whatever the CPA cost is, it is cheaper than AC's own regional ops on a similar route. HAnds down cheaper.

No not really. If you break down what AC is paying Jazz for the present CPA into a cost per seat mile they are paying 24c-27c/seat mile over the last few years. More over you are missing the fundamental point of having a CPA. Which is lower costs from the mainline and match the costs of the competitor on similar routes.

Air France/KLM, British, Lufthansa, Emirates, and a couple of others are establishing themselves handily as the big players. AC still has the window to remain significant on the world stage but that window is closing in my opinion. ACPA should, for its own health,should focus on this side of the operation.

The cold hard truth. ACE is only interested in selling to one of those players. That's it. My guess it will be Lufthansa.

[cat3]

Endless,

It'sa former MEC guy who showed me the payscales and I believe that what I was shown had a few more years on the AC side. However, I could be mistaken. Nonetheless, some AC EMB pilots, other than recently hired ones, are making $ from the 320 payscales and so forth. I don't care about the $ they're making; we should all be paid more and start taking our industry back into our hands. But unless this stops, AC risks losing more and more regional flying. This in itself is not necessarily a bad thing for ACPA if you look into the future beyond a few a years. But a lot on both sides prefer to keep looking into the past instead.

Unfortunatly, an EMB 175/190 and a B737-800 are not quite comparable.

Your biggest problem in the pilot group (other than none of you get along) is lack of a status pay system. It would solve a lot of issues (so would getting along a little better) But that would mean the senior heavies take a little hit. However, you can fly a schedule rather than an airplane and at JAzz, we really like that. 5 airlines brought together by date of hire and you don't even hear about it on the line. A proactive MEC that brings problems to the table as well as the solutions for management to contemplate. Of course it's not all yahtzees...

This thing between Jazz and AC can be worked out to the advantage of both pilot groups AND the Company. It takes forward thinking by the pilots because I'll tell you (as my reference to the MPL), the Company is looking 20 years ahead and there's alot at stake for our profession.

[cat3]

c

[Localizer]

Brick Head:

Jazz, same thing. I have beaten that to death. Contract up 2015. I'll repeat only this. I am not saying Jazz's cost are high. I am saying Air Canada pays way more than the going rate for its CPA with Jazz. Same idea though, give it a whopping contract for 10 years with guaranteed income. That artificially drives up the IPO price. The proceeds of the sale go to ACE shareholders. Air Canada is left paying inflated prices for a CPA.

Don't you think AC (ACE) planned this CPA and its cost from the get go? This CPA is designed to filter money, most likely to the major players screwed from the CCAA. Jazz takes in big cash .. pays out high dividends .. and really thats about it. Sure doesn't go back into capital. Take a look at the flight-deck of a Dash 8 and you'll understand that in a hurry.


As for the Embraers, and the regional flying being done with them ... if I was a 320 pilot i'd be doing everything in my power to get rid of them. Since most of the fellas I know on the 320 are sitting at home with a 65-70 hour block, and not there usual 80. So the bigger money sits while the cheaper pilots work ... sounds like setting the tone for the future to me.

Knocking everyone off the C2 scale is such a waste of time and negot's power. Im sure there isn't enough guys/gals bumped over the course of a year to warrent those measures. If you get bumped once ... does it really matter? If it does matter than you didn't plan your commute very well, and who's fault is that? Issues like this are only the tip of the iceburg .. and it plays right into managments hands. Divide and conquer is the name of the game ... don't play their game.



Cheers! Loc

[Martin Tamme]

Which journals are you talking about? I've always heard about the CPA with Jazz being a massive gouge, but I've never seen anything more than quarterly financial statements used to reference it.

Please refer to the CIBC Analyst Report:


You will note that Air Canada's Cost per Air Seat Mile (CASM) is 16.38 cents per air-seat-mile (Exhibit 8 on Page 7 ), with the revenue being 17.03 cents (Canadian currency).
Jazz' CASM is 24.22 cents, with Air Canada paying Jazz 26.61 cents per air-seat-mile.

The American Regional carriers have a CASM ranging from 10.29 to 14.84 cents ($US) per air-seat-mile. As such, Jazz' CASM is pretty much double when compared to the American Regional carriers, and 50% higher than Air Canada's.

[Brick Head]

Don't you think AC (ACE) planned this CPA and its cost from the get go? This CPA is designed to filter money, most likely to the major players screwed from the CCAA. Jazz takes in big cash .. pays out high dividends .. and really thats about it. Sure doesn't go back into capital. Take a look at the flight-deck of a Dash 8 and you'll understand that in a hurry.

Absolutely! add to that list, impossible to figure out what AC's/Jazz's cost actually are.

As for the Embraers, and the regional flying being done with them ... if I was a 320 pilot i'd be doing everything in my power to get rid of them. Since most of the fellas I know on the 320 are sitting at home with a 65-70 hour block, and not there usual 80. So the bigger money sits while the cheaper pilots work ... sounds like setting the tone for the future to me.

Um the E190 is a DC-9 replacement. It seats 93. DC-9 seated 94. E190 GTOW is 1800kg heavier than the DC-9. The 320 fellas are sitting at home because the E190 has taken over so much transcon flying. That regional flying you refer to. The 320 is an RJ now too? We get rid of them and the 320 still won't do the flying when the loads don't warrant.

Anyway marketing puts the aircraft that fits, on the route. The 320 falls every fall. A year ago AC had too many 190's. Today we have too many 320's. When the economy turns around we will have too many 190's again. It is called versatility and about the only advantage AC has over WJ. The fix for the cheap labor is getting the aircraft on formula pay.

We don't want to debate how the "cheap" labor came to be do we?

Knocking everyone off the C2 scale is such a waste of time and negot's power. Im sure there isn't enough guys/gals bumped over the course of a year to warrent those measures. If you get bumped once ... does it really matter? If it does matter than you didn't plan your commute very well, and who's fault is that? Issues like this are only the tip of the iceburg .. and it plays right into managments hands. Divide and conquer is the name of the game ... don't play their game.

Agreed.

[Jaques Strappe]

Localizer Wrote:

As for the Embraers, and the regional flying being done with them ... if I was a 320 pilot i'd be doing everything in my power to get rid of them. Since most of the fellas I know on the 320 are sitting at home with a 65-70 hour block, and not there usual 80. So the bigger money sits while the cheaper pilots work ... sounds like setting the tone for the future to me.

Embraers doing regional flying?

Since when did Toronto-Seattle, Cancun, Montego Bay, Havana, Phoenix, Turks and Caicos or Toronto to St Johns' or Kelowna become "regional" flying?

[Localizer]

Embraers doing regional flying?

Since when did Toronto-Seattle, Cancun, Montego Bay, Havana, Phoenix, Turks and Caicos or Toronto to St Johns' or Kelowna become "regional" flying?

So are you saying that the Embraer does not do ANY sort of regional flying? So the Rj200 isn't really a regional machine either by your mind set. Atlanta, Los Angeles, San Diego, Austin ... etc. The 705 is just as capable of doing the same flights as the 190 or 175 .. actually more ... but thats not really the argument here, and I don't wanna hijack the thread. (feel free to start a new post if you'd like .. And I didn't refer the the 320 as a regional airplane. Thanks)

The point here are the C2's .. and you're issue with them. That was YOU'RE issue. Since I haven't seen any Jazz pilots post complains in regards to getting bumped off THEIR own airplanes by AC pilots. (Since you've also made this and us versus them thread) Remember divide and conquer ... we're not off to a good start here.

Quit making mountains out of mole hills and acting like kids by playing games .. my bike is better than your bike. (Being offended by saying the Embraer is a regional plane) Who cares ... Working together we'll all reap the rewards ... fight ... and we'll all suffer. Don't just take my word for it ... Look at the past ... thats all you have to do.



Cheers! Loc

[one8tee]

Hey Everyone.. interesting questions. A few points though:

Firstly the C2 question is stupid. Obviously If you're an AC employee who travels on Jazz or a Jazz employee who travels on AC you would agree. The rest of you who happen to use your travel passes once a year to go overseas and happen to once in a while get bumped by a Jazz employee who has been there longer than you at AC should probably think about the rest of your colleagues and decide if inconveniencing all of them would be worth it to you, so that you are sure to get on the exact flight you want once a year.

Secondly, why are we looking at these jazz costs compared to the american regional carriers and assuming they shoudl be equal when the aviation industry is not even close to equal in the two countries. For example (just to name a few)

1. Price of Fuel- cheaper in the USA
2. Pilot's Salary-Waaaay cheaper in the USA.. most FO's are making around 20K a year working for the regionals. Before anyone starts to say thats what Jazz FO's should be making lets remember that the experience levels, income tax levels and cost of living are all cheaper in the USA.
3. Level of service. I was lucky enough to get executive on a rj 700 operated by United Express.. Ordered a coffee.. only to be given coffee-mate to whiten it with. Maybe we should try that out on the 705 and see how our executive clients like it.

[Dockjock]

Not lost in all of this should be Jazz' fleet plan 10 yrs from now. What are they going to operate?

ACE, as shown above several times, and quite amply, was created as a legalized money laundering machine through the use of force- threat of liquidation, with the complicity of the court system, to the benefit of Cerberus, Deutsche Bank, and the executive management who was bought and paid for by same.

Core units were positioned as stand alone companies, given exclusive contracts at inflated values with the purpose of extracting money from the parent. Jazz, ACTS, Aeroplan...as if a regional airline, a maintenance department, and a loyalty program aren't parts of a business but actual companies! It is so devious its sickening.

Go back to income trust first principles: A trust is a structure ideally suited to a business with low capital requirements, high free cash flow, in a relatively non-cyclical sector.
Airlines: Nope, nope, nope. So Jazz was engineered to "look" like that. The fleet plan was ignored, costs are passed through to mainline, and the CPA guarantees stable cash flow! Bingo IPO and let's hope nobody notices until its too late. So how do you renew your fleet if you retain none of your profit?!

Once the CPA is finished, there is no need for Jazz other than the use of the 2 pilot groups to whipsaw and keep labour cost down and pilots scared. That is all Jazz pilots (as a group) are useful for to AC mainline management. If it wasn't about that, the RJ's would be parked, the Dash's sold, q400's operated by tier 3's and E170's would do the regional feed at the mainline level. There is so much duplication and waste, it is clear that the only reason to keep Jazz around is to keep the employees in check by letting them (us) cut each other's throats year after year.

[pilotbzh]

Wait until Harper open the sky to the US fly for food company.... no more emb at AC, no more Jazz.... if making 45k on a beech looked good expect 35 soon, and it's not like we could fly and make money in the US with open sky, they already have a crap system...we should look at better standart like in europe not lower...But what do I know, Just a pilot born in europe looked for a dream and looking at a nightmare. If it wasn't for the familly I would have left for better grass....

FK you all you elected the gvt you wanted. Live with it don't expect anything but slavery from it....

PS: it you read this email you have to much time to spare get back to work and vote harper... no time off for you slave....

[Localizer]

Once the CPA is finished, there is no need for Jazz other than the use of the 2 pilot groups to whipsaw and keep labour cost down and pilots scared. That is all Jazz pilots (as a group) are useful for to AC mainline management. If it wasn't about that, the RJ's would be parked, the Dash's sold, q400's operated by tier 3's and E170's would do the regional feed at the mainline level. There is so much duplication and waste, it is clear that the only reason to keep Jazz around is to keep the employees in check by letting them (us) cut each other's throats year after year.

Besides ... Jazz pilots are not real pilots anyways ... right?! ... Because if they were they'd work for mainline ... so obviously they're just your run of the mill second rater's. Kill'em all ..... If this is all Jazz pilots are good for (screwing mainline pilots) then why not try to work with them? Answer that question .. because it always seems to be avoided. Why is it taboo to work with another pilot group? If there was a co-operative pilot group then maybe you could avoid losing bargining power on screwing the Jazz pilots and use it toward something better. If we were a co-operative group we could both improve our lifestyles and avoid this kind of crap .. make the company shake there head an think of a new game plan. But i'd love to hear an answer to the previous question ....