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Schlem
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Post by Schlem »

Rubberbiscuit wrote:Pimper is right. We are paying for the fact that most Pilots keep chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I know guys who have accepted jobs, gone for expensive sim training just to quit the day after getting back, to go work for someone that pays a littlebit more or it's a little closer to home!
Where is the holder of a Canadian ATPL and an current MD-83 or F-100 type rating going to go to get "closer to home"?

That's what is the big mystery to me... a training bond for equipment that is only operated by JG in Canada... it's not like it's a CRJ, A-320, or B-737/737NG type rating.

This another reason why I think people don't like the fact a North American 705 airline wants money from it's pilots.

So... what is the real reason they want your $30K?
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disco
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Post by disco »

Schlem,

you're missing the basic concept here. A LOT of the JG pilots are on the recall list for AC, Jazz etc...

Still others, will jump the moment a better paying job comes along, or one that gets them home. Ummm, Air Canada, startups like Zoom, Sunwing...ummm the overseas jobs such as Emirates.

Pilot jumping can become a MAJOR cost factor for an airline regardless of 703, 704 or 705.
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Sulako
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Post by Sulako »

I always thought it was happy employees, not unpaid debts that made people loyal. I assumed that if a company was good to work for, then maybe people wouldn't jump ship the moment a better paying job came along. I hear that WJ doesn't pay that much, but the pilots there sure seem to like it.

But then again I'm innocent in the ways of the world.

//goes back to the sidelines
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grouchy
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Post by grouchy »

rubberbiscuit said " The $30.000 does not even cover the entire cost of training"

What does the training cost? and are they only training one person at a time?
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Rubberbiscuit
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Post by Rubberbiscuit »

Dear BD,
Cancer, eh! What do you think the result of all airlines undercutting eachothers fares over the last decade did for the industry? What do you call it when competitors are suing each other back and forth to give eachother bad names! If that is not cancer on the canadian aviation world I dont know! Then there was the competition burea. Ha ha ha! That was our useless Government's attemt at curing some of the cancer with an aspirin. Until the Government steps in and starts regulating fares there will be a dog eat dog world out there like I said before.

Schlem,
Trust me! There are no shortage of guys that want to fly larger aircraft, and routes outside of Canada or is looking for a bigger paycheck!
And like Disco said we have a lot of laid off guys from A/C, Jazz, Air Transat and so on. A lot of those guys are from places other than Toronto and would more than likely jump at the oppurtunity to stop commuting.

Grouchy,
For starters most of the guys spend anywhere from 8 - 12 weeks in hotels and get paid per diems (I signed the hotel bills they are not small). Then there is the cost of groundschool instructor/classroom (contracted out) plus airfare to get you around. Sim I belive is around $800 CDN per hour and training is 48hrs plus 4hr flight test. Then there is circuits in the real plane ( nav canada fee's + burning approx 10000lbs of fuel per hour i'm guessing. and each candidate log about .7hrs), line indoc, Transport fee's and on and on!! And during all of this they also have to pay for instructors and their travels and accomodation, and belive me most of instructors are contract and are paid very well.
So if you add all of this up you will see that the bond does not cover the cost of an initial PPC. Just take the circuits for example. My class of eight flew 7hrs to get their touch and go's. Imagine the fuel bill and airport landing fee's as an example.
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Tango01
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Post by Tango01 »

$30,000 to fly that huge stupid happy face!, it's not like you get to fly a leaf logo, I'd pay $31,000 for that :mrgreen:

I hate airline politics, the scams they pull with the poor people that try to make a living and the passengers that get to pay the price to go for a ride in an organized mobmobile with wings.

If an airline can't afford to train their staff, maybe they shouldn't exist.

PS: I also hate Shits-go!


bye-bye now

T01
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Post by ... »

Rubberbiscuit wrote:Dear BD,
Cancer, eh! What do you think the result of all airlines undercutting each others fares over the last decade did for the industry? What do you call it when competitors are suing each other back and forth to give each other bad names! If that is not cancer on the Canadian aviation world I don’t know! Then there was the competition bureau. Ha ha ha! That was our useless Government's attempt at curing some of the cancer with an aspirin. Until the Government steps in and starts regulating fares there will be a dog eat dog world out there like I said before.
Undercutting for the last decade? Competitors suing? Competition bureau? Government to regulate fares? Dog Eat Dog world?

I believe its called deregulation.

The long and short of it;

In 1978 it came into affect in the United states, In Canada deregulation in the late 80's early 90's came too late for Wardair. Other chartered carriers companies like Nationair, Worldways, Royal, Canada 3000, Airtransat surged into old routes that Air Canada/Canadi<n decided not to service, or code shared them with other international scheduled carriers.

Deregulation’s intent(s) was to provide a competitive environment for the benefit of the traveling public and to service routes that have been dropped by direct service to destination(s). The fallout of this is now we find ourselves in an environment of a cut throat industry where it was never to be the intention of creating such a hostile industry where we find ourselves in today.

Had Canadia<n never mismanaged their affairs and Air Canada never was made to assume this carrier no matter what the politicians and excecs tell us, the WestJets and JetsGo would never ever be as large as they now. Air Canada and the Canadian government were caught with their panties down. The theory of Deregulation did not account for this sceanario!!! Never say never I always say.

Side note: Why was Air Canada "forced" to assume Canadia<n? Well my little JetsGo peasants :wink: Despite what you have been fed by THE FEDS and AC officials....imagine what would happen to a current government in power that would let a national carrier go under and the loss of all those jobs. No it was not because of routes it was because of national embarrsment of a governing political party. The Opposition would be ALL over it and the funny thing is that if they would have been in power they would have done it the same way with AC/CND merge.

So now 'cancer' companies like JetsGo are creating a 'dangerously' hostile environment. It's not being competitive; it's not filling in abandoned routes. It's degrading the industry and the LIFESTYLE we ALL aspire to attain. It's simply a cancer to the industry. Dec 23/24 has shown the fragility of its infrastructure. So, if on the surface and in the eyes of the public this infrastructure collapse from counter agents to crews over worked...the whole company is stretched too thin...and as a professional yourself in the industry you know very well something is going to give. And when it does...it's going to be tragic.

Now you can pick this post of mine apart (and I know you will) but you are simply suffering from is simply a 'battered spouse' syndrome. Everyone sees and knows it's a problem...and it has to stop but if you don't recognize it...well you're part of the problem.

You defend a company and a man that is laughing at you all. Where else can one get his employees to pay to work? Where do I sign up for that AND STILL BE ABLE TO SLEEP AT NIGHT? Observing some of the JetsGo crews and their demeanor...they don't look happy. In fact they look tired, over worked, and just pain miserable people.

AC crew ALL look miserable as well...but they are well rested and have enough time off to chill out at their summer cottages or weekend skii condos.

Fly safe
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Rubberbiscuit
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Post by Rubberbiscuit »

I respect your opinons although I realize there is no bending them!
Fact: Until you have actually worked @ a company for some time you can only speculate and guess what goes on there.
BD Wrote:
Deregulation’s intent(s) was to provide a competitive environment for the benefit of the traveling public and to service routes that have been dropped by direct service to destination(s).
And then he wrote:
So now 'cancer' companies like JetsGo are creating a 'dangerously' hostile environment. It's not being competitive; it's not filling in abandoned routes. It's a cancer to the industry.
Sounds like contradiction to me. If you are not going against other carriers on routes allready established then it is not competition is it?

So where would we stand if Westjet, Jetsgo and Canjet did not excist? I would certainly hate to find out.
All the airlines use the same or similar tactics to win over the customer.

If jetsgo is that dangerous I wonder how the other carriers are paying for their maintenance with an overhead much larger than Jetsgo's. Yet they are selling tickets for the same price. I can't wait for the 4th quarter results. If A/C lost $985million in the first 3 quarters of 2004 under bankruptcy protection, I wonder what their balancesheet looks like now when they have to pay the bills again. Once again i will emphasize that all carriers are selling tickets for the same price these days.
Jetsgo's Pilot look unhappy you say! When I look at other pilots around the airport they don't exactly look like kids at Disney world either. I also find it curious that some of the ex. A/C guys have no intentions of going back. I am not suggesting that Jetsgo is the ultimate employer but me and the guys I know certainly enjoy it! But that is today and I only live one day at a time.
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pimper
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Post by pimper »

What happened on the 23 was horrible, the main reason for it was not infastructure. Our planes were full. There is only so many hours in a day that we can operate. When your main hub is closed down or taking 4 hr delays to deice you run out of time. Because our flights that day were full as well as the next days flights, we could not rebook most people. Can you imagine if this storm hit YYC? The worst thing that happaned on the 23 was lack of info to the pax. What the pax didn't see...jetsgo was trying to get the most amount of people home for the holidays, the reason flights were not cancelled sooner...when time ran out the flights were then cancelled. It sucks for the pax that they had to endure hours at the GTAA but we were doing our best.

It costs around 50 grand for an initial.

There are no other jobs in Canada for MD's or Fokkers...but there are lots of jobs around the world for Jet experienced drivers.
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CanadaEH
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Post by CanadaEH »

Jetsgo got burned because not only was there a storm (Air Canada and Westjet handled it fine) but because of inexperience, unreliable aircraft (6 a/c went mechanical that day.. didn't hear that in the papers did you?), lack of communication, and poor planning. All of this can be attributed to growing too fast.
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pimper
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Post by pimper »

You should stick to what you know Canada Eh..that would be a gate agent in YVR. 20 out of the 24 aircraft or 80% of our planes were in YYZ. If 80% of your airplanes were at one airport that had a freezing rain storm it would have been a mess as well.

Air Canada did have the forsight to cancel flights the night before and try to get pax out early or on later flights. They could do that because of capacity. I have lots of close friends at AC that worked the same storm and all of them had similar stories to mine. The difference is they told the pax earlier what was going on and had the open seats to get them out later or the next day.

The delays to WJ would have been the same..around 4 hrs from pushback to take-off. The difference is the delays were not compounded. Our planes fly out and back from YYZ, yours just have to take the one delay out of YYZ(for the most part) and those pax have to be fit on later flights down the line, and apparently there were lots of open seats. It would be like me comenting on a this storm hitting YYC, it would have been horrible for WJ but minimal for SG.

We had 6 mechanicals? If you didn't read it in the papers where would find out that info? Its news to me and I was there.
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tripleseven
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Post by tripleseven »

That's the first time I've ever heard of anyone needing 48 hours of training to pass a PPC. 48 Hours?!?! What is up with that?
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Post by ... »

Perception is everything.

Fact:
1 unhappy customer complains to 10 other people about their experience. Each of those 10 tell 10 each of their own = 100 people. And so on and so on.

3000 people stranded on the 23rd/24th for what ever 'valid' reason or excuse...is a lot of people hearing about it. 3000 people stranded and treated like SPCA animals fed no information and poorly organized infrastructure for EXPECTED winter flying scenarios...well...I'm not that smart...however I would bet 30K that it made for a challenging environment for all involved.

Just the fact that I, like many on here, have raised the issue of 'paying to work' here such a hot topic, it satisfies me that it may be one that is discussed in many flight decks across this nation and may even trickle down into the grass roots of flight schools. People are talking…Rome was not built in one day…but I would like to think I have contributed a mortar brick to the cause.

ALSO to reiterate that when WE as pilots accept a position for a said period stipulated in a work contract...we honour it...with a smile. My company will not hire people that break contracts early with other companies. Period.

The other stuff regarding cut throat price slashing seat sale wars between the companies and their respective CEO's is up to them. I'll deal with those guys later over lunch one day and smack their heads together. There's enough $ to go around for everyone in this industry...Selling seats for 20 bucks brings out people that shouldn't be leaving their double wide trailer in the first place...never mind traveling in an airplane. Conversely Air Canada cannot be ALL things TO ALL people. Do what you do best…

I hope they drop the 30K personal loans to Leblanc. I will fly JetsGo when they play the airline game with an ethical conduct towards its staff.

Thank you for reading.
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Rubberbiscuit
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Post by Rubberbiscuit »

Tripleseven:
48hrs is one crew. Half the time is as PNF.

As for the $20 fare. I guarantee its only a handfull seats available at that price. Plus you have to purchase a regular fare return.

Check this out for comparison:

http://www.canjet.com/en_smart_fares.aspx

http://www.aircanada.com/en/offers/air/ ... _sale.html

http://c1dsp.westjet.com/internet/sky/b ... mplate.jsp

Apparently Canadian aviation is suffering from more than one form of cancer!

It's not like the other two major carriers in Canada did not have their share of booboo's! But because ut did not fall on x-mas it got less attention. ( And this is only a couple of examples):

Last week A/C cancelled over a hundred flights to the U.S. in one day due to wx.

March 2003 A/C shut down at Pearson for two days due to wx.

In 1999 A/C cancelled 49 flights in a single day due to lack of pilots.

CALGARY, ALBERTA, Apr 4, 2003 (CCNMatthews via COMTEX)

WestJet advises that for Friday, April 4, 2003, because of the rapidly changing weather conditions all remaining flights have been cancelled into and out of Hamilton.


And I am sure most of you forgot when a certain Canadian airline stopped flying completely for a period of time to revamp their maintenace program!

An I am not trying to make anyone else look bad. All I'm saying is that any airline will inevetably experience logistical problems while gaining experience. While other things are simply out of anybodys control.

And once again. Where would we stand if WJ, JG and CJ did not exist?
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WJ700
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Post by WJ700 »

We had 6 mechanicals? If you didn't read it in the papers where would find out that info? Its news to me and I was there.[/quote]

I was in YYZ with two SG pilots who came by the hotel the night before... both had their days re-arranged for 'six broken aircraft' their words, not mine...

I went for dinner with them in T3, one guy in the restaurant was delayed 40 hours with SG already, he'd started in YVR and was trying to make it to YYT that day, again that was still the same night, December 22nd. We know YYZ had a storm, we know a lot of SG aircraft were in YYZ... but we also know you had problems starting the day before on December 22nd... and not for weather.
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pimper
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Post by pimper »

Well at least I know where Canada Eh got it from. Thats the problem WJ700, its word of mouth and if its the same friends who you eluded to a few months back that hate it here I respectfully submit they were embelishing at the least. We actually have spare Fokker 100's and I don't know of any MD's that were grounded and I was litterally one of the poor saps at the airport.

I also have talked to several friends at WJ who arn't on the coolaid parade and they said they had the same shit as us, but to a lessor extent. In fact they comparted it to standard operations at Royal.

BD, generally I would agree with your comments that one happy pax = lots of good publicity with friends and relatives the same being true for an unhappy customer. The fact is these people choose SG because of price, and price brings them back. (I don't agree with this but it seems to be true)

PS BD I gave you my email address to send info on SG being mechanically unsafe..I am waiting!
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Post by ... »

pimper wrote:
PS BD I gave you my email address to send info on SG being mechanically unsafe..I am waiting!
I will not put anything down in ink.

Choose to meet with me or not.

This offer has a limited time.
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WJ700
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Post by WJ700 »

[quote="pimper"]Well at least I know where Canada Eh got it from. Thats the problem WJ700, its word of mouth and if its the same friends who you eluded to a few months back that hate it here I respectfully submit they were embelishing at the least. We actually have spare Fokker 100's and I don't know of any MD's that were grounded and I was litterally one of the poor saps at the airport.

I also have talked to several friends at WJ who arn't on the coolaid parade and they said they had the same shit as us, but to a lessor extent. In fact they comparted it to standard operations at Royal.

Actually, it was two newer F100 people, but yes the MD guys are still unhappy (wouldn't you be?). I think the only embelishment is yourself saying you didn't have problems on December 22nd. I was flying December 23rd, along with several other YYZ departures, I was only an hour late making it home with a YUL turn. Oh, and its 'Kool Aid'... teal green, looking forward to seeing more of you around the west next week. Cheers.
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DA900
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Post by DA900 »

Guess what my dad was delayed with WJ 7hrs going from Edmonton to Kelowna and know what who the hell gives a sh*t, all airlines have delays. Its a way of life in this world. Listening to a bunch of whiners complaining about it doesn't change anything.

Is WJ better than SG no is SG better than WJ no. Just be happy where you work. Everybody is going to have a story on how a airline screwed them or a friend over the point is who cares!
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Post by Canus Chinookus »

DA900 wrote:Is WJ better than SG no is SG better than WJ no. Just be happy where you work.
Image
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CanadaEH
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Post by CanadaEH »

You should stick to what you know Canada Eh..that would be a gate agent in YVR. 20 out of the 24 aircraft or 80% of our planes were in YYZ. If 80% of your airplanes were at one airport that had a freezing rain storm it would have been a mess as well.

Air Canada did have the forsight to cancel flights the night before and try to get pax out early or on later flights. They could do that because of capacity. I have lots of close friends at AC that worked the same storm and all of them had similar stories to mine. The difference is they told the pax earlier what was going on and had the open seats to get them out later or the next day.

The delays to WJ would have been the same..around 4 hrs from pushback to take-off. The difference is the delays were not compounded. Our planes fly out and back from YYZ, yours just have to take the one delay out of YYZ(for the most part) and those pax have to be fit on later flights down the line, and apparently there were lots of open seats. It would be like me comenting on a this storm hitting YYC, it would have been horrible for WJ but minimal for SG.

We had 6 mechanicals? If you didn't read it in the papers where would find out that info? Its news to me and I was there.
What I do does not limit the extent of "what I know", I assure you that I know a hell of a lot more than my job entails. For the record, I am not a CSA, not that there is anything wrong with that.

The reason the "storm" turned into such a bad PR nightmare was because everything went wrong for you all at once, and you didn't have the people in place to fix it. Your customer service agents (which are contracted in most bases if not all, right?) didn't keep the customers informed, your dispatchers/crew schedulers didn't keep your own crews informed, and the lack of planning by many people in your airline in all departments led to a disasterous trickle effect of delays and cancellations.

No airline is ever immune from such problems, cause Westjet certainly went through the same thing a few times during our growth. What sets the airline apart from others is how a situation is handled. Bad weather happens; cancellations happen; delays happen; bad customer service shouldn't. An airline is judged on how certain aspects are handled, and Jetsgo failed miserably during the "storm".

I ask you this: Air Canada cancelled many flights the day prior - why didn't Jetsgo? Why were both Air Canada and Westjet able to arrive/depart all day while Jetsgo wasn't? Why was crew rest such an issue at Jetsgo - poor planning or bad luck?
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mushr00m
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Post by mushr00m »

DA900....That is the best comment on this forum. Nicely Done!
:D
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WJ700
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Post by WJ700 »

DA900 wrote:Guess what my dad was delayed with WJ 7hrs going from Edmonton to Kelowna and know what who the hell gives a sh*t, all airlines have delays. Its a way of life in this world. Listening to a bunch of whiners complaining about it doesn't change anything.

Is WJ better than SG no is SG better than WJ no. Just be happy where you work. Everybody is going to have a story on how a airline screwed them or a friend over the point is who cares!
Being over 3 hours late, your Dad will get an appology letter with flight credit in the amount he paid for that leg of his trip, it's automatic... so yes, one company is better.
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ajet32
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jetsgo

Post by ajet32 »

WJ700 what do they put in that Koolaid ??
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WJ700
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Re: jetsgo

Post by WJ700 »

ajet32 wrote:WJ700 what do they put in that Koolaid ??
Ground up green smiley faces :D
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