The life of a "New Hire"

[Four1oh]

whats all this clamming about!!!

80% of the population does not have a combined family income of 100k, many are below the 30k yearly.

So you start at the bottom of the ladder and work up, tisk tisk, what expected 200k yearly with bonus,;0

SF./

Wrong. You start at the industry bottom when you graduate from flight school and take your first job. The Air Canada "new hires" in my class had between 10 and 20 years of experience. Yes, there were a couple of exceptions (2 out of 18 had less than 7 years experience). "Working up the ladder" in the airline means keeping your nose out of trouble and waiting for the 3000 guys ahead of you to retire or medical out... until they decide that working to 60 isn't enough and launch discrimination suites claiming that 65 should be the new retirement age (even though they were fully aware of the age 60 retirement).

I never said I expected 200k a year. I never said I expected a bonus. What I take exception to is being told that after 18 years in aviation I have to accept the insulting "new hire pay" and be told that I am fortunate to have a job just because my predecessors went through it.

Not that I disagree with a thing you said, I just have to play devil's advocate:
Until the stream of resumes slow or stop, you won't see a change. If it's not what you're willing to accept, there are other jobs that do pay better in the short term, but not necessarily in the long term, nor are they jobs that will age you gracefully...

[Jaques Strappe]

Can I suggest that the reason that this crop of new hires are able to see the left seat of the Embraer after 1-2 years is because the pay is so out of whack with the rest of the fleet that it is not desirable to the senior end of the membership? For every "new hire" that snuck into the left seat to make $100k (which, I think you would agree, is a little more than half the pay of what a DC-9 Captain made over 10 years ago!!) means that around 3000 guys looked at the conditions and said "pass". The new hires did not negotiate the current contract (Yes, we also know that the last round of negotiations were done at the end of a shotgun barrel in CCAA). If it is an available position because 3000 guys passed on it I don't think the green pilots should be told how fortunate they are.

Having said all that, can we have a group hug now and move forward in solidarity for 09?

yycflyguy

I think there were several reasons why guys initially passed on the left seat of the Embraer. One was because the old rule, never bid on to a new fleet until you see what sort of lifestyle it will provide. ie what sort of flying will it will be doing. Two, it was initially set up with the same management team as the RJ and guys who had flown the RJ wanted nothing to do with it. Third, the aircraft arrived in 2005 at the beginning of a big hiring. Things were moving upward very quickly and relatively new guys were able to hold the left seat of the Airbus ( approx 70% system seniority ). The demographic attitude has also shifted over the last 10 years. Many now opt for "lifestyle" over career. As a result, guys select a position which provides the "path of least resistance" There are some pretty senior "snoozers" who were once Captains. Take a look at the bottom of any airplane, very junior when compared to the top. It may also be worth pointing out right now that there are Embraer Captains at Air Canada making more than some 320 Captains due to the reduced blocks on the 320. Why are there reduced blocks? Perhaps to avoid putting some new hires on the street. See where this is going?

You are absolutely right, new hires did not negotiate the present contract but I do hope they researched it before accepting the position. Did they all buy homes next to an airport and then start a campaign against airplane noise? Sarcasm aside, new hires have the ability to help shape the new contract. With that in mind, a new hire who has been on the property for less than two years and is already complaining about everything, right or wrong, may not find the desired support from the rest of the group.

"

For every "new hire" that snuck into the left seat to make $100k (which, I think you would agree, is a little more than half the pay of what a DC-9 Captain made over 10 years ago!!) "

You are preaching to the choir when it comes to pay for the entire airline industry, not just us. You need to remember that right now, at the current exchange rate, Embraer Captains at Air Canada are the highest paid in North America. On par with a United 737/320 Captain. Ask him how much he was making 10 years ago! I am in no way saying that we are paid what you and I feel we as pilots are worth but the entire industry sucks, not just here. As for DC9 left seat 10 years ago, that position was never available to a new hire in the first place. Once again, see where this is going?


rubberbiscuit wrote

I think the last few hired will endure a totally different lifestyle over the first few years with the company compared to the guys/girls that got on initially when the hiring started.

Unfortunately, that is common with any airline and has been since the beginning of time. Those fortunate to get hired at the beginning of any up cycle will always have an advantage over those who were hired at the end. That is not just limited to Air Canada. Ask anyone who was on the first few classes at Westjet.


While I do agree that the pay group needs to be eradicated and I place that at the top of my wish list because it affects the future and fiber of our industry, I might suggest that you guys will get more support from the group if you step off the soap box for a moment. This issue needs to be dealt with and supported but simply complaining and finger pointing is not going to do anything and for the most part, will fall on deaf ears. I respectfully offer this suggestion in support of your plight, not as an argument against it.

[Four1oh]

I wonder what will happen to these fast upgrades with almost no senority. Can they be bumped into the right seat after being a captain? Will they still get captain pay?

[Lost in Saigon]

If there is a reduction in the number of EMB Captains, those at the bottom will be bumped off. They will then use their seniority number to take them to what ever position they can hold. Once they are retrained, they will start getting paid the new salary of the position they have been bumped down to.

[daveg]

Has that happend this time around? Any idea of the numbers if so?

[Jaques Strappe]

Has that happend this time around? Any idea of the numbers if so?

The airline has already declared that there is a surplus of pilots. The number is around 120 pilots but due to the cost of training everyone on the down slide, the number of surplus needs to be significant enough to justify the cost in re training. However, with the machinist strike over at Boeing delaying deliveries of two 777s' the implosion of Wall Street and a basic decline in passenger traffic, the company has more than enough ammunition to declare a bigger number.

ACPA and the company have already worked on some job loss mitigation ideas and if the number of surplus new hires grows, you can bet the rest of the group will be approached and asked to reduce their monthly blocks ( salaries ) in order to spread the flying around and keep as many guys as possible on the property. This is always accepted by the pilot group.

It is my fear that with comments like FNGs', being posted on a public forum on the eve of a possible layoff, the perception to some will be........ if the new hire is not happy here anyway, then why should they reduce their block by 10 hours a month to keep him here? The "what about me" attitude is alive and well unfortunately.

[Old fella]

"....There are some pretty senior "snoozers" who were once Captains. "

I don't mean to get nosy here and comment on an operation I know nothing about but I gotta ask that Captains elect to go to F/O status because of a particular life style they seem to enjoy. Isn't there a reduction in pay which will ultimately affect their pension.

A particular life style must be quite something and have real advantages to do that. I though the goal was get the left seat and accept the hard work/responsibility that is required. Am I missing something here being an outsider looking in............

[Lost in Saigon]

Yes, you are missing something.

Lifestyle and Pay are always in confliction at a major airline. It is pretty difficult to have both. Sometimes a pilot's Ego gets mixed up in there too.

[Lost in Saigon]

At Air Canada, there are about 3,000 different ideas of what is a good trade-off between pay and lifestyle.

Here is a small sampling of what an individual may choose from:

Junior A320 Captain $160K
Senior B777 FO $150K
Super Senior B777 Relief Pilot $115K
Super Senior EMB Captain $ 145K

It is nice to have choices.

EDITED to correct EMB pay.

[Old fella]

At Air Canada, there are about 3,000 different ideas of what is a good trade-off between pay and lifestyle.

Here is a small sampling of what an individual may choose from:

Junior A320 Captain $160K
Senior B777 FO $150K
Super Senior B777 Relief Pilot $115K
Super Senior EMB Captain $ 115K

It is nice to have choices.

.


Thanks for the info, quite interesting and I note your comment about choices, that gotta have it's advantages. Can an individual who is a B777 F/O, hold that position until he/she has enough seniority to bid/hold a Captain position on the B777 or in order to get left seat on anything, said individuals will at some point have to go on the A320 or EMB and work up..

[. .]

At Air Canada, there are about 3,000 different ideas of what is a good trade-off between pay and lifestyle.

Here is a small sampling of what an individual may choose from:

Junior A320 Captain $160K
Senior B777 FO $150K
Super Senior B777 Relief Pilot $115K
Super Senior EMB Captain $ 115K

It is nice to have choices.

.


Thanks for the info, quite interesting and I note your comment about choices, that gotta have it's advantages. Can an individual who is a B777 F/O, hold that position until he/she has enough seniority to bid/hold a Captain position on the B777 or in order to get left seat on anything, said individuals will at some point have to go on the A320 or EMB and work up..

In theory you could have started as a 777 RP and then 30 years down the road go right into the left seat of the 777 if your seniority could hold it.

[fng]

I am shocked at the misperception of the saleries at Air Canada. This is the foundation of where my post came from. For some reason pilots are all too easily lead to believe that they are going to be making 100K within a short time!

For those who look down at a "new hire' who is not happy with his pay and is trying to inform the uninformed of the ACTUAL conditions..not hangar rumours on what a Capt at AC makes...you go ahead and call me a complainer!...just make sure you also tell that to my newborn child and her mother.

I took home $2900 last month.

[Jaques Strappe]

Saigon

Super Senior EMB Captain $ 115K

You are off by about $30K


Old Fella

Code: Select all

I though the goal was get the left seat and accept the hard work/responsibility that is required. Am I missing something here being an outsider looking in............

That is was it was like 10 plus years ago. Since then, there has been a definite shift towards lifestyle.

[Lost in Saigon]

Right you are. I was looking at the wrong pay column.

[tbaylx]

More and more guys are taking a look at the starting wages at AC and saying No Thanks! and going elsewhere. Between making poverty level wages living in YYZ for the first few years and then faced with the constant threat of layoffs anyone who has been in the industry 10+ years has to think pretty hard about making the jump to AC.

If enough of us think that way hopefully it will eventually lead to an increase in the starting package and those that chose to stay in Canada will be able to have a decent starting wage at AC should they choose to go that route. In the meantime alot of us are taking our experience overseas.

[minimumsdecide]

With all due respect FNG no one forced you into the job with AC

For the record, I'm not a AC pilot, I left the corporation because I was sick of all the complaining (it's all about me attitude) that is continuously displayed amongst employee groups.

You took the job knowing exactly the terms of employment, that is the facts

There are many other opportunities out there in the world of aviation (outside Canada), for those who are up for the adventure.

If you choose to stay in Canada (which I can totally respect) , just remember the seniority is a fact of life. Seniority is not based on your time in the industry, but the time with your employer.

[Dockjock]

Whining that your pay sucks a few months into a new job says one of two things about you.

a) You're ignorant, because you accepted something without knowing the terms.
b) You're stupid, because you didn't understand them when they were explained.

[QFE]

"Nothing has changed, except that under the last point, ACPA was protecting the senior pilots from an Air Ontario pilots lawsuit."

Why should new hires, or anyone else not involved, have to finance ACPA to defend a lawsuit they were never party to?

[bcflyer]

I took home $2900 last month.

Somethings not right with that number.. First year flat pay should be 37300 which works out to just over 3100 month.

[Lost in Saigon]

I took home $2900 last month.

Somethings not right with that number.. First year flat pay should be 37300 which works out to just over 3100 month.

Don't you pay taxes?

[bcflyer]

Since FNG appears to be bitching about the pay, I figured they must have been talking about 2900 BEFORE tax. If thats after tax cash, its equivalant of about 50,000 a year. Not a bad wage to start as an F/O...

[Lost in Saigon]

I took home $2900 last month.

Since FNG appears to be bitching about the pay, I figured they must have been talking about 2900 BEFORE tax. If thats after tax cash, its equivalant of about 50,000 a year. Not a bad wage to start as an F/O...

Depending on the month, take home pay can include lots of other stuff at Air Canada:

1) Crew Cycle Expenses: Includes:
....a (Meal per diems)
....b (Uniform Cleaning Allowance)
....c (Transportation Allowance)

2) "Reimburse Medical Fee"
3) "Sharing Our Success" bonus
4) Annual Profit Sharing
5) Draft Premium
6) Over Time Bonus

[the original tony]

Just a little off topic, or maybe not.
For those that were hired straight onto the bus and, if lucky, hold that position into year 3,
what is the AVERAGE take home one can expect.
I know there are a million variables, but just a rough guess, no OT, just the usual flying month on RSV.
Thanks for any input.


Tony

[fng]

Nope $2,910 to be exact! Take home..after the taxman

= no overtime for flat pay...its nice to see you know how flat pay works
= no draft for flat pay.

I honestly appreciate those who understand where people im my situation are comming from.

[Stick-Shaker]

AC had the ability to take these "new hires" and start with a clean slate. These are pilots that came post-merger and CCAA, and for the most part are very happy to be on the property...

Now lets highlite the latest pay progression issue that many of the new hires were not completely brought up to speed on. Many were told in the interview by our HR professionals that position group salary/pay group was for 2 years then you can expect to jump to formula pay. In fact its 2 years plus (a maximum) of 90 days.

This adds up to approx to a 10-12K difference in salary expectation for the first year in formula pay. And now the one glimmer of hope to see that corrected was dropped in the "pay progression grievance." These new hires have the right to be heard. If you don't like opinions don't visit this site. My point is, why not take a new pilot, clean slate and make him proud, and happy to be on the property. Instead the logic is to put you through 27 months of the flat pay grinder, and then spit you out the other end in so many pieces it takes you another 3 yrs just to get back on your feet.

The reality is WJ pays F/0's 50K+options in the 2nd year, Canjet and Sunwing start F/O's at a higher salary than AC. We should be the best paying job in the country.

This attitude of "Well, I had to go through it, and so do you" thing has to go. I say go new hires!