While we're still on the subject, does anyone happen to have an e-version of the final report from this: FLIGHT AND DUTY TIME LIMITATIONS WORKING GROUPS
I've been able to determine that the final report was presented in October 1994 and that NPAs have been presented through CARAC (linked in the other discussion thread, not yet published in the CARs) but haven't located a copy of the actual report and recommendations that generated the NPAs.
Write a letter to make a change.
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
Re: Write a letter to make a change.
The NPA's (as weak and lame as they were) are going nowhere and have been deep sixed in favour of the fatigue risk management policy TC has adopted. They are placing complete responsibility for managing fatigue on the operator and individual and have stepped back entirely from regulatory protections for crews, and therefore the travelling public.
-
scrambled_legs
- Rank 5
- Posts: 311
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:14 pm
Re: Write a letter to make a change.
I just thought I'd clear this up. We do have duty time regulations in ATC, although I'm not sure how much of that is due to our union, or due to our regulating body, Transport Canada. Generally, we're not allowed to have less than 10hr's between shifts although we can go down to 8hrs once per cycle. We can't work more than 9 days in a row and we can't work over a certain amount during each 56day work schedule. ATC can time out just like your co-joe or captain can.CD wrote: You will also not find any mention of flight and duty time regulations as only flight crew have prescriptive measures. None of the other employees in aviation (maintenance, cabin crew, ATC, etc.) have any duty time limitations.
Re: Write a letter to make a change.
Rockie...
It does not appear as though they have been deep sixed just yet as they are still shown as sitting with Justice Canada awaiting the dreaded "legal editing" (RU File Numbers 10000-369 and 10000-576). Now, will they ever make it to Gazette I or even into the CARs? I would think that some day they will -- after all, if it's taken this long to do the "legal editing" of proposals from 1999-2000, I have to wonder how long will it take for fatigue management to make its way through the system when it hasn't even been proposed for flight crew yet?
scrambled_legs...
The limitations you refer to are most likely negotiated by your union as there is nothing in the aviation regulations that I have seen that would otherwise limit the hours of work for anyone besides pilots. The problem with relying on your union to negotiate hours of work is just that -- it's a negotiation, so you've had to give something up in order to get the limits that you mentioned. However, what happens the next time the contract is up for renewal? Will you want additional health benefits so agree to work 10 days in a row as compensation to the employer? You shouldn't have to rely upon the strength of an individual contract to limit hours of work, imo.
I know the Canada Labour Code establishes standard hours of work but I'm not sure if aviation has been made exempt from those provisions or not... I believe that there are other threads in the forum discussing this very issue when a review of Part III was being undertaken.
It does not appear as though they have been deep sixed just yet as they are still shown as sitting with Justice Canada awaiting the dreaded "legal editing" (RU File Numbers 10000-369 and 10000-576). Now, will they ever make it to Gazette I or even into the CARs? I would think that some day they will -- after all, if it's taken this long to do the "legal editing" of proposals from 1999-2000, I have to wonder how long will it take for fatigue management to make its way through the system when it hasn't even been proposed for flight crew yet?
scrambled_legs...
The limitations you refer to are most likely negotiated by your union as there is nothing in the aviation regulations that I have seen that would otherwise limit the hours of work for anyone besides pilots. The problem with relying on your union to negotiate hours of work is just that -- it's a negotiation, so you've had to give something up in order to get the limits that you mentioned. However, what happens the next time the contract is up for renewal? Will you want additional health benefits so agree to work 10 days in a row as compensation to the employer? You shouldn't have to rely upon the strength of an individual contract to limit hours of work, imo.
I know the Canada Labour Code establishes standard hours of work but I'm not sure if aviation has been made exempt from those provisions or not... I believe that there are other threads in the forum discussing this very issue when a review of Part III was being undertaken.
Re: Write a letter to make a change.
"It does not appear as though they have been deep sixed just yet as they are still shown as sitting with Justice Canada awaiting the dreaded "legal editing" (RU File Numbers 10000-369 and 10000-576)."
Not officially anyway.
Look at some of the other NPA's that have made it into the Gazette and the CAR's that were put forth at the same time and since and you'll see how they have been shelved. One of the NPA's from years ago was simply moving the F&DTR's from CAR 700 to the individual sub parts (702,703 etc.) so there would be less confusion with the differences. No change to the wording, just moving them. Nothing has been done even to something as simple as that because TC does not want anything to do with them.
Not officially anyway.
Look at some of the other NPA's that have made it into the Gazette and the CAR's that were put forth at the same time and since and you'll see how they have been shelved. One of the NPA's from years ago was simply moving the F&DTR's from CAR 700 to the individual sub parts (702,703 etc.) so there would be less confusion with the differences. No change to the wording, just moving them. Nothing has been done even to something as simple as that because TC does not want anything to do with them.
Re: Write a letter to make a change.
The Canada Labour Code only counts the time spent doing 'actual work' as payable hours. So flight time, paperwork, washing the plane etc. are counted, but the 4 hours sitting at the FBO waiting for passengers is not. As far as I'm concered, if companies had to pay overtime for duty times over 8 hours, companies would select a shorter duty day to save money.I know the Canada Labour Code establishes standard hours of work but I'm not sure if aviation has been made exempt from those provisions or not...
Sorry, I digress, this has been covered before.
Iris
Re: Write a letter to make a change.
From the "global report on flight duty times" thread ...
pushyboss wrote:Most pilots (and operators) are unaware that unless their operation has an approved averaging system, they are entitled to overtime for any work hours in excess of 8 per day. We found this out the hard way......If averaging is in place the overtime is triggered at the 2080 hour mark over 12 consecutive months. So without averaging you could work 12 hours today and nothing for the next three days but be entitled to 4 hours of overtime. With averaging you would not.
pushyboss wrote:Widow,
Some things regulated or not defy common sense. We had a situation where our pilots were working a couple of long days per week and a couple of very short days per week with a couple of days off. Average work hours (flight duty not flight time) wouldn't have hit 30 hours per week. So it never occurred to anyone that overtime would be an issue. Does it make sense that a salaried employee who works 10 hours on Monday and 2 hours on Tuesday should be entitled to 2 hours of overtime? Not to me. So we let a poor employee go and they dug up their flight and duty times and nailed us for every day that they exceeded 8 hours of duty. $6,500 later....We implemented averaging which does nothing more than inform the employees that overtime is calculated annually not daily. $5,000 legal bill to implement and God only knows how much Labour Canada spent on our approval. All for what?
Remember safe is not always legal and legal is not always safe.
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
Re: Write a letter to make a change.
The biggest problem with PILOTS is that they keep flying safe in spite of fatigue.
(Been there, done that).
Same as wages. As long as pilots don't crash from fatigue, or are happy making service industry wages from their $100,00 education, nothing will change.
Solution:
1) Get low time captains to start crashing airplanes with high priced passengers on board, due to fatigue.
2) Keep pestering your ministers. Like the little train who could, eventually, someone will listen.
Some have said you can't make a difference. Imagine if Ghandi or Nelson Mendella had listened to them!
(Been there, done that).
Same as wages. As long as pilots don't crash from fatigue, or are happy making service industry wages from their $100,00 education, nothing will change.
Solution:
1) Get low time captains to start crashing airplanes with high priced passengers on board, due to fatigue.
2) Keep pestering your ministers. Like the little train who could, eventually, someone will listen.
Some have said you can't make a difference. Imagine if Ghandi or Nelson Mendella had listened to them!
What little I do know is either not important or I've forgotten it!
Transport Canada's mission statement: We're not happy until you're not happy
Transport Canada's mission statement: We're not happy until you're not happy
